speaking of taxes

[lovepat906]

Where are you on this chart?
                    
                         MCCAIN Plan              OBAMA Plan
Income               Avg tax bill                   Avg. tax bill
Over $2.9M       -$269,364 (-4.4%).        +$701,885 (+11.5%)
$603K and up      -$45,361(-3.4%).        +$115,974 (+8.7%)
$227K-$603K        -$7,871 (-3.1%)                +$12 (+0.0%)
$161K-$227K.       -$4,380 (-3.0%)             -$2,789 (-1.9%)
$112K-$161K        -$2,614 (-2.5%)             -$2,204 (-2.1%)
$66K-$112K          -$1,009 (-1.4%)             -$1,290 (-1.8%)
$38K-$66K              -$319 (-0.7%)              -$1,042 (-2.4%)
$19K-$38K ....         -$113 (-0.5%)                 -$892 (-3.6%)
Under $19K ...           -$19 (-0.2%)                 -$567 (-5.5%)

[lovepat906]

I understand that you believe that you alone determine your position in life and have fortunately had the abilities  necessary to get past your past. Good on you.

And I hope- for your sake- that future life circumstances that you (or someone you love) confront, do not burst your bubble. Must be nice in there.

[VicUser]

Your granddaughter is making a choice, when we choose we must live with the consequences. Some choices are noble and do good for society and those people should feel blessed, they are serving the greater good. We’ll see if she continues to feel that away or bows to the almighty dollar. I hope she is strong and helps others.

Same with the guy who wanted to be a school teacher, he made a choice to get drunk, he made a choice to push the thug, he made a choice not to go back to school and learn something else, he made a choice to work in a factory.

Have I done stupid things, you bet, who hasn't, some I didn't get caught, some I paid the price and moved on. No one’s fault but mine.

I worked for a man that had a terrible physical handicap, most people would have been happy just to get assistance and live. Instead he was determined to get ahead and became a very good Scientist and business owner and gave me a chance when I was in high school. I look up to him even to this day, he help me realize I could be and do whatever I set my mind to.

I don’t believe that 50% of the people do not have the where-with-all to excel, I have worked with too many people and so many just don’t want to do more than they have too.

I did choose a profession that pays well. It was a choice, I struggled to get through calculus and failed the first few times, but I was determined. I had something to prove to myself as well as some others. I am glad I did.

[lovepat906]

Vic- I am sure that there is a % of truth in what you say. But, as always, sterotypes are deceiving. Here's an example: I have a daughter who graduated tops in her class from a tier one law school. She is dedicated to public service and wants to do relatively low paying public interest law. Right now she is scooping ice cream for $8 an hour. Jobs are few and far between and there are 200 applicants for every position. She is living in the cheapest, run down no-bedreoom apartment she can find, doesn't turn on the heat, and eats mac and cheese. She has always worked extremely hard- and I am sure that she will eventually find a job that can pay her bills. BUT, with the high cost of living, the prospect of a much needed but low paying non-profit position and an enormous educational loan to pay back,  she is gonna be in tight financial circumstances for a long time. Does that make her lazy? Even at $8 and hour she does not qualify for safety net services. There is little help in the system for low wage workers.
Another example: A young man who worked hard and got a degree in education. Just before he graduated he made a life changing mistake. He drank to much at  a party, drove home and  in front of his own home pushed a neighborhood  thug out of his way to get to his own door. The 16 yo pressed charges, the young man was  given PBJ for DUI and a stet for assault. Neither can be expunged from his record. He cannot pass a background check for most jobs. He is working for $11 an hour, six days a week at a factory.  People make mistakes that have far reaching employment consequences. Have you never made such a mistake? Or have you never been caught? Or have you been lucky enough to find your way past your past? Some people aren't and don't.
Then there are a lot of folks that are doing the best that they can, Not everyone is blessed with marketable abilities- I think of the many children I have taught who will be lucky to get and keep low tier jobs. And the truth is- we need those low tier workers to keep our economy working. You and I stand on the backs of those workers.  And the people on the top stand on all of us below.
There is a normal curve of people. That means that there are 50% of folks who may not have the where-with-all to excel- no matter how hard they work. So. They are working as many hours as they can, being reponsible, but still not able to keep up or get ahead. Should I look down my nose at them and  judge that they are just losers? Or, if they do their best, should they not at least be given a fair living wage? Be able to go to a doctor? Have affordable housing? And who am I to determine who is doing their best and who is not? Do we punish all people equally for being at the bottom? Or do we count our own blessings and realize that there- but for the grace of God- go we?

[VicUser]

I whole heartedly agree that sometimes people need help because of things beyond their control. We should help in those cases. and I will do what I can even when not asked, it is just the right thing to do.

I guess what I am trying to say is so many people don't look ahead and plan for tomorrow. Everything we do has rewards and consequences and somewhere along the line we all have to stop and think about what we are doing and how it will affect us and the ones that are dependent on us.

[flmagi]

Ok, I'm gonna have to jump in on the single mother thing. lol  I don't know how things have changed or if they've changed in 30 years, but let me tell you of my experiences. I was a single mom with no child support coming in. There was a government program in place back then called CETA (I think that was the name), which offered to pay the participant to go to school. I applied for it and was taken into a room by the interviewer and was told I didn't qualify for the program for the following reasons....I was not a minority, I only had one child, I didn't have a criminal record and I wasn't an alien. The interviewer was disgusted by the fact he had to turn me down (as was I). So with some help from my mother baby-sitting some times when she wasn't working, I went to school all day and then worked at night and put myself thru school. I would hope things have changed and these programs are more available to those that need it. Some people don't have family to help.  I know people now that get welfare, but they lie and work (off the books), don't file taxes etc. Yet people that really need the help and are honest, can't get the help they need, even for a short time to help them out of a slump. Not even some medical attention...unless they use the ER. Utility companies are unsympathetic and will cut you off in a heart beat.
Now, VicUser, you know I love you dearly, right? But I just don't think you understand how hard it can be for some to climb out of the hole. And yes, I know some people will just sit in that hole crying and not do anything to help themselves. But I have to believe most people are good and hard working and don't want to be dependant on government programs. But sometimes $hit happens and ya just need a little help for a short time. But the lazy, dishonest people are sucking the system to death, so that the ones that are honest and need a hand temporarily, can't get it.
It's not always the choices you make in life, sometimes life will make the choices for you.
Ok, I'm rambling.  What was the question? lol

[VicUser]

Public servent like Teachers don't get paid what they deserve. Form what I have heard, at least in my area, Firemmen and Policemen do ok, definately not low income, but maybe not what they deserve. The bad part is in most cases here there pay is based on levies  that are voted on by the local citizens, and many feel that voting no on levies is the only power they have to keep gov't in line, so guess who suffers.

I don't really want to get in to the arguement about single parents, but since I attended a community college I found out that that same Mother can get free tution, free child care, free books, free transpartation and free meals while at school. Free is not the right word, it should be the tab is picked up by the other tax payers.

Just so you know, I think that men that abandon their responsibilities as husbands and fathers are the lowest form of slime on the earth. I think that men that don’t want to step up to the plate as a father should keep it in their pants or be sterilized. I am getting off track and will shut up now.

[allaboutmary]

Don't forget we need those people. Our teacher, firemen, police, janitors etc.... It's just not possible for everyone to move up the ladder. Take the single working mother. She works and 8 hour day and maybe a part time job to make ends meet, then the rest of her time is spent cooking , cleaning and taking care of her children(making sure their homework is done, school projects etc. )  It's just not as simple as you make it sound.  You are talking about a small part of our population, that doesn't work hard to get ahead.

[VicUser]

We could argue about who deserves how much of a tax break till we are both blue in the face and not come to an agreement. We just don’t see eye to eye here . Read “The Fair Tax” and then we can discuss it and the merits, and pitfalls,  of such a structure, who knows maybe we can join forces for the greater good of all.

I do have a question that you may or may not want to address. Why do you think that the guy or gal  that makes $20,000 only makes $20,000? We know that it is possible for someone of little or no means to get ahead. Look at Obama, his story is one of rags to riches, so is Bill Clinton’s.  At the community college I attended for the first two years there were a lot of people like me working their way through school to get ahead.

I work with now, and have worked with in the past, a lot of people that are in the lower income level. They are offered chance to take classes that will increase their value at their present job and anywhere else they would choose to go. Instead they choose to bowl, play volleyball, hang with their buddies or what have you. Then when it is raise time or a job opens up that requires skills they don’t have complain that they don’t get as much of a raise or are passed over for a promotion for the person that gives 110% and it putting forth the effort to learn and better themselves. It is all choices we make in life.

[sterling_silver]

lol

[lovepat906]

"The Tax Foundation"  is hardly an unbiased group.

Founders-  Alfred P. Sloan, General Motors Corporation, chairman
Donaldson Brown, General Motors Corporation financial vice president
William S. Farish, Standard Oil Company, President
Lewis H. Brown, President of the Johns-Manville Corporation

Current leadership- Scott A. Hodge is President of the Tax Foundation

Past associations include:

Citizens for a Sound Economy- Founded by Koch Industries( the largest privately-held company in the United States, with annual sales of $90 billion. Koch Industries is also a major polluter). CSE has been funded by  Amoco, Bell Atlantic, Citibank, General Electric and General Motors  and more. CSE has been described as one of many mercenary groups that function as surrogates when industry feels it's not advantageous for it to speak directly.
  
Heartland Institute - Opposied to the the Kyoto protocol , supports the privatization of public services;opposes tobacco control measure such as tobacco tax increases and denies the health effects of second-hand smoke; and it promotes the deregulation of health care insurance, hosts PolicyBot, a data base containing 22,000 documents from 350 U.S. right-wing think tanks and advocacy groups.

There's more but I think this is enough proof of bias. The major thrust of this organization and it's affiliates is to promote deregulation . Nuff said?

[lovepat906]

The table I posted showed the  percentage of income paid in taxes in those high income catagories. It did not show the % of  total US taxes paid by that income group.
The source was the congressional budget office- not a biased media outlet. I will take a look at your source and see if their information is reliable.

But using ball park figures, an income tax break of 4.4%  for some one at the bottom of that highest bracket would put about $20,000 back in their pockets. A .2% break for a person at the bottom would give them an extra $15 bucks to spend. Now, who is in most need of $$ to pay for basic needs? The guy that makes $ 20,000 a year. ot the guy that makes close to $400,000 a year?

[VicUser]

let's try this table. It is from "The Tax Foundation"  not a biased news group. http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/250.html

Tax year 2006
Income        Share of Income Taxes      Min Income to be in Group
Top 1%                 39.89%                               $388,806        
Top 2-5%                 20.25%                               $153,542
Top 6-10%                 10.65%                               $108,904
Top 11-25% 15.47%                               $  64,702
Top 26-50% 10.75%                               $  31,987
Bottom 50%   2.99%

The top 10% of wage earners pay 70.79% of the tax burden.

If you would do the math you would also see that the 4.4% tax cut for those that pay a high rate like 22% yields close to percentage tax cut as the .2% tax cut for those that pay 3%


I am not a rich guy, but by the same token I have never been employed by a poor guy.

BTW the book is call "The Fair Tax" it is not a flat tax, it is a consumption tax, aka sales tax. At first glance I was like no way, but after reading the book it is fair to the poor, middle class and the rich. It is not complicated but too much to go into here, please read the printed book or listen to the audio book.

[lovepat906]

So I guess you can't really effectively defend your position? Sarcasm  begs the question.

[paul300]

thank you, you my point to Vic.

[VicUser]

I guess I am just too stupid to understand your table.

Here is an idea for a new tax plan. Anyone making over $150,000 will be taxed on the amount they make over $150,000 at 100%. The money from the new tax will then be given to the people that make less than $50,000 so to bring them up to the this new minimum level. We would thus eliminate the rich and the poor at the same time.

[lovepat906]

The % at the end of the second line should be 95%- dumb thumb.

As far as the $12 goes- the salient point is the comparative differences between the two plans. And I am sure- as with all tables these are averages within a range.
Does it really make sense that we cut the taxes of a guy who makes 2.9 mil a year by
4.4% and at the same time only reduce the tax burden on the guy (or probably single mom who didn't abort and is trying to stay off welfare) who makes under $19K by.2%?

You know sometimes I daydream about the possibilities of reincarnation. What a great education it would be for the wealthy to spend a life time struggling at the bottom.

[lovepat906]

So those fine Americans who have profited mightily from their U.S businesses are gonna take their ball and go home? We get to bail their a**es out with our tax dollars and they run away to protect their inflated profit margins? Nice.

[lovepat906]

The 4% is between 95 and 99%- they were comparing the total income of the top !% (1.1million households) to the total income of the bottom 94%.
And your math re the tax burden makes no sense. The % on the chart is the % of their income that they pay for all combined federal taxes. You can't add that up and use the total as that group's % of the country's tax burden. It does not compute.
I am sure that the sports guys who make milions are included in the top 1%. The income figures represent ranges. So anyone who  $1,558,500 or more would be in that top 1%. You can go to the source to see the complete chart- it wouldn't fit on this page.If you do- compare the tax % from 2004 to 2005 and you il see the drop in taxes that occurred. Of course they paid more taxes tho- because they made much more money. But the percentage of tax on that level of income has actually dropped in the last 4 years.

[paul300]

I've given up the argument.  Unfortunately the tax rate is currently too high. If Obama gets his way, my company will pay a higher tax rate and I will have less capital to invest in R&D and hiring employees. Simple as that. High tech companies like mine can be developed offshore if need be; many will ultimately do so. And investors will definitely place capital offshore.

[VicUser]

WOW, using you stats the top 10% of income earners pays 87.5% of the tax burden.

and if you believe that the people from that make from $227k up to $603k might have to pay an extra $12 in taxes, I have a bridge to nowhere to sell you.

[VicUser]

top 1% and the bottom 95%, what happened to the other 4%?

What about the sports guys that make millions off the ticket sales of the hard working Americans? Don't get me wrong I don't think the CEO's that make 100's million a year are worth it either, but it is amazing who we target.

[NautyOne]

I just report my income......Most of it.....lol......and let the Tax man take care of it....I am clueless and I just don't care because I am just another number.......I don't play hardball with the Feds.

Nauty........

[lovepat906]

Today in America the wealthiest 1% owns more than everyone in the bottom 95% combined. Income inequality is at its greatest level since the 1920s - right before the great depression. Though the US has continued to make big gains in productivity over the last decade, nearly all of the benefit of those gains has gone to the wealthy, not the workers. American CEOs earned 411 times as much as average workers in 2005, up from 107 times in 1990. In the economic expansion of 2002-2006, the top 1% captured nearly three quarters of income growth.

http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/saez-USto pincomes-2006prel.pdf

[lovepat906]

Obama's plan : people under 250Gs would not see an increase. I guess my source

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/eco nomy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/?postve rsion=2008061113

was a bit more detailed- Looks like people from $227Gs up to $603Gs might have to pay an extra 12 bucks.

2005 stats from the congressional budget office:

millions of households   pretax inc.   post tax income   % all federal taxes
Top 10% 11.7                339,100          246,300            27.4
Top 5% 5.8                  520,200         369,800            28.9
Top 1% 1.1               1,558,500      1,071,500            31.2

The stats for 2006-2007 are not out yet. But as I recall there was another tax cut for the
wealthy in 2006 and their income went up significantly. I'll keep looking for the complete figures.
All federal taxes includes personal income, corporate, soc.security, and excise taxes.