Low Codeine Abuse and Suboxone

[JeanJM]

Hi everyone I’m new here but have concerns about Suboxone.

So I’ve been taking 270mg of Codeine throughout the day, every day for the last 7 years. I have never gone over that amount but sometimes I have less, it depends how I feel that day. I work full time and my family knows but it’s never been an issue as it doesn’t stop me from getting on with my life or negatively affect my behavior.

But I went to CADS anyway to discuss my options and they prescribed me the pure codeine while I worked out which path is for me. The Dr suggested I go on Suboxone which I really do not want to do as I believe it’s more addictive and harder to come off and has more negative health effects, plus I’ve been reading so many stories and most have been negative.

Tomorrow the Dr is going to trial me on Dihydrocodeine to see how that goes. I don’t think my Dr understands that while I am chemically addicted its more my daily routine and not trying to always chase that high otherwise I would of taken more by now even though I’ve tried explaining this over and over.

One other thing that concerns me, my Dr said he hasn’t had experience with Suboxone so was curious to see how it would go with me O.O

[worriednzgirl]

Hi JeanJM,

I'm not sure if you will see this but I just have to comment, I am in almost the exact same situation as you were two years ago. I have been on codeine maintenance tapering the dose down and I'm down to about 300mg a day at the moment. I pick up my 70 30mg tablets from the pharmacy every Wednesday. Everything was going great until my doctor started worrying that what he was prescribing me could get him in trouble so he referred me to CADS. You know what that means, only two options: suboxone or methadone.

I DO NOT want to go on either. I have been doing well on the codeine taper and I have a great internship/job at the moment and I don't want to risk losing it by stopping the codeine! I'm so worried they will cut off the codeine and then I'll have to go CT and quit my internship or buy Nurofen + which will just make me sick. If I had money I would check into a clinic like Odyssey House to come off the codeine but I'm poor, I have to work to pay my rent and bills, I can't afford to take time off for detox and I don't want to change to a drug that will cost me time off work or lose my job. It's just not fair.

What is wrong with addiction services in New Zealand?! What's worse, a low-dose codeine taper plan with NO side effects or a much stronger drug that will probably make me sick and drowsy that's harder to quit?! Gees, some people take 300mg in a single dose, it's not like I'm taking handfuls of oxycodone or shooting heroin! But to CADS there is no difference between people on low doses of codeine and people who shoot bags of heroin daily.

Like you I don't do any other drugs at all, I don't even drink! But I do have a history of depression and self harm. I had counselling through ProCare but once my 10 sessions were finished I couldn't get anymore and I can't afford to pay for a counsellor myself. CADS told me the same thing as you "we don't want you taking codeine, you could overdose on it, suboxone or methadone are much safer." Ummm I've been taking codeine for over 5 years and I've never overdosed, I've never got sick or needed to go to hospital so that's straight up bullkaka.

Please help me, tell me how you managed to get another doctor to prescribe you codeine again because I feel like I'm being backed into a corner where methadone or suboxone are the only options!! I don't want to lose my job and become a suboxone zombie failure for the rest of my life.

Sorry for the long rambling post. I just can't stop crying, I feel completely hopeless, lost and abandoned by my doctor and I'm so stressed out! I can't take much more of CADS bullying me into switching to a harder drug!

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Love from worriednzgirl

[JeanJM]

I think I will continue to slowly taper and seek meeting support if I feel it's getting to much for me but at the moment everything is going smooth and positive and I want to enjoy this moment because I know hard times will happen and I will have to deal with it.

I also was looking into that ibogaine treatment, anyone else heard of it?

[EvolverU]

Geez Jean, It's good to see, ya'! I'm so very happy to hear you and your mum found a suitable Dr. (at last!) I just wanted to offer you my congrats on your taper. What are your plans from here? (also, Kudos for not falling for the Suboxone/Methadone rap.)

[JeanJM]

One last thing in case some of you are wondering how my last meeting with Dr D!ck went with my Mother and Partner.

My Mother did a lot of research into Suboxone and questioned the Doctor every step of the way and when he couldn't answer her questions he would cut her off but Mother would bring it right back which he didn't like at all. She asked him about side effects which he hmm harred and said well maybe slight headache and stomach upset. He tried to tell her Suboxone was less addictive than Codeine at the dose I was taking (150mg at that time) and that the withdrawals are way easier than Codeine. LOL.

When she asked about Naloxone with seizures (because I suffer from them) the Doctor just said we would have to wait and see how if effects me...

He then told us about his other patient who was on around 260mg Codeine and they put him on 8mg Suboxone, I mean WTF 8mg?! I said you have done that poor fellow a dis-service and now he's going to go through hell when he wants to come off, and he will want to come off.

This Doctor also tried to say there is no way you can get high off Suboxone or feel any opiate effects which is simply not true.

Anyway the actual plan was for me to ask for a taper and the Doctor just laughed in my face and said "oh because it was so successful the last time when you only lasted 2 months" Well Mother lost it and said what a complete ******* he is for not being supportive and what kind of attitude is that!

But like I mentioned I'm with a new Doctor now and I'm down to 80mg feeling positive and great I didn't like that other Doctor try and push me on 8mg Suboxone O.O Can't imagine lol

[JeanJM]

Thanks guys =D And like I said I've manage to taper down to 100mg now even though my new Doctor was happy to keep me at 150mg until I was ready!

So nice to get back into a normal routine and no longer have to think/worry about pills =D! So happy!!!!

[VICourageous]

Ahhh Jean..I just knew you were a Smart Cookie..I read this post again..You did good..Give your Mom my Thumbs Up!! I am happy for you..All that stress because of a Dr who did not do his own Homework!!!  Great Job!
Bless...

[abritt121222]

That's good I couldn't even believe ur post when I read it that's insanity that a doctor would put someone on something when knowing obviously absolutely nothing about suboxone

[JeanJM]

Well guys everything is going like it should, new doctor, new job and no stress from the previous horrible doctor lol. My Mum rip him apart and it was fantastic and he clearly had no idea what he was talking about with Suboxone because he wanted to start me on 4mg... I'm so glad I left and was smart enough to see what was happening before being led down that road.

My partner didn't even get a say in since my Mum had done all her own research lol.

[abritt121222]

I also don't understand why he would give u extended release anything because you can't wean down with extedended release meds. I understand the depression and all that I went thru it all and had two back surgeries in the past but the thing about opiates is the longer u take them the worse all that gets. This is bef because your mind will make u physically hurt and make u feel more depressed to get what it wants and that's for u to take more and its good u are still only on codeine after the long time u have been on it and haven't moved o n to stronger and stronger meds like me and many others cause the stronger they get they get the harder the harder and harder it is to harder and harder it is to get off of them. Well let us know how u are doing and what happens with your mom.

Good Luck and Godspeed
ABritt

[nursegirl6572]

Amen britt!

You're smart Jean, and KNOW that going to Sub or Methadone would be like killing a fly with a shotgun.  

I absolutely think there was some other ulterior motive there, because the doc was pushing it so hard and not even listening to your concerns.  A doctor is supposed to keep a patient's best interest at stake, and he hasn't done that...even just his refusal to listen to you.  I'm all for Sub in the right circumstances, and this wasn't one of them IMO..

Proud of you for holding your ground hon.  How are you doing?

[abritt121222]

NNNOOOOO!!!! U need another doctor is what u need I have never heard of any doctor even mentioning suboxone for any amount of codeine abuse. Bupernorphine thats the opiod in suboxone is a serious opiod and wwwwaayyy to strong to go from codeine to it. I would honestly be scared someone would overdose on the suboxone doing this. Even tho suboxone has a ceiling effect which is why it works the 4mg the ceiling takes effect is more than u could tolerate. I know 4mg sounds like yea right that's not hardly any but I promise u it is way more than u would think. I went on suboxone after having a 4-600mg a day roxy addiction and the subs took every bit of withdrawals away and actually for a few days until I got used to it still made me feel like I was a lil buzzed on it I don't even like saying something like that on this site and only am saying that to say how strong suboxone is and for someone with a low tolerance to opiates like yourself it would be easy to overdose on the suboxone.

[JeanJM]

No idea what the hell you are talking about but no way am I going to take Suboxone at over 6x the amount then what I actually need. If I take the lowest dose at 2mg that is the equivalent to a 900mg Codeine habit which is ridiculous and a step backward, not to mention its even more ADDICTIVE and harder to come off and why must I take Naloxone with it? I don't inject or snort so another chemical my body doesn't need since here in New Zealand we can't get Subutex.

You obviously didn't read I don't take Codeine anymore for emotional reasons, I got over that by seeing a Therapist and learned new ways to deal with negative situations.

And I've now seen another Doctor and guess what! He put me back on the pure Codeine at 150mg which I can stay on for maintenance if I wanted to because he can see Suboxone is not the way forward for someone like me. Plus I've manage to taper down to 100mg myself and will continue to come down but at my pace, which he is happy to support me.

I also had to go back to get my files/medical history like the others told me to do but its all over now, I have a new job and am stable, enjoying life again. And the reason they didn't call me back is because the Nurse felt extremely embarrassed after what happened with the Doctor which was caused by her doing. She even apologized to me for how I was treated, hmm funny that.

I am not crazy or delusional to see the BS some Doctors try to pull and push the Suboxone agenda because they get some sort of payment out of it. Having an active role in ones recovery and doing as much research as possible is a positive thing and if you believe what a Doctor tells you without question, then YOU are crazy and delusional.

I wanted to share my story and experience so anyone else who has a similar addiction to a low dose of "Insert Drug Here" can be aware that not all Doctors will do whats best for their patients well-being and can/will put them on something FAR more addictive and damaging in the long term.

[JeanJM]

I left many messages no one will get back to me, lol how pathetic is that?

[nursegirl6572]

Ahh, taking back up with you??  Good idea!!

I would seriously call today, ASAP to get a copy of your medical records...before the crap hits the fan.  

[JeanJM]

Thanks guys! you are my little support group that I really needed =D and I will no longer let this Doctor cause me stress and will definitely ask the Therapist if she can refer me onto a better Doctor. I will keep you guys posted.

1 more thing, my Mother and Partner are coming to the last meeting I have with this Doctor as my Mother is furious at my treatment and wants to have a chat with this guy! Should be interesting.

[nursegirl6572]

They can't force you to do anything (the doc and his staff that is).

Sounds like you're happy with your therapist, that's excellent...ask her to help you find a new doctor who can better guide you.  If I were you, I wouldn't step a FOOT back into that doctor's office again unless it was to get your records (which I think you should request a copy of your FULL medical record from them ASAP)...it's your RIGHT to have it, although they may charge a fee.  IF they refuse to give you a copy, report the doc to the medical board immediately.  I really think something shady is going on.

Hopefully you can find a GOOD doc who can safely get you off the codeine and then go from there!!  Try not to put too much energy into this doctor and the things he's said.  The important thing is getting away from him and to a doctor who actually has your best interest at heart.

Take care!

[EvolverU]

Sounds like you're therapist has a whole different take on this (for obvious reasons -- She's been there and that's everything. God bless her!) I'm so glad you found someone who understands. Big question -- Can she get you to a more suitable doc? One that she deals w/ and has a good relationship w/ or will your doctor make trouble re: your file? (flag you somehow.)

[JeanJM]

My Therapist is also an ex methadone user of 25 years. She was put on Methadone after a Heroin addiction.

I told her about how the Doctor pulled me off the Codeine Maintenance when it was working and put me on the Sustained DHC and how it made me lose my job. And how he is pushing for Methadone/Suboxone and my Therapist doesn't see how it’s ethical for the Doctor to put me on a drug 4x the amount I require and also a hell of a lot more addictive than what I am taking now.

She also has issues with how this Doctor argued with me about my personality. Her assessment of me was a happy, positive and very honest individual who is really motivated when given a task, despite a lot of issues I have had to encounter in my past. My personality is not affected by the Codeine, as in the Codeine does not change or alter how I am, just my mood.

The Doctor on the other hand is completely opposite in his assessment of me. According to him I am a shy, highly emotional, unmotivated, and unorganised and severely depressed individual in which Codeine alters my personality completely. Also the Doctor thinks I would do whatever it takes to feed my ‘addiction’ he thinks I would steal, hurt people or even hurt myself to get what I ‘want’ The Therapist can clearly see this is not true and wonders what this Doctor is smoking.

She’s even tried talking to him about this whole situation and apparently, he thinks he’s right and doesn’t want a bar of it.

[EvolverU]

Jean, I'm so glad to hear about the therapist. How did he disagree w/ your Doc? Glad to see you back, mate.

[JeanJM]

Opp one more thing, I have been seeing a therapist and have worked out my mental issues and what was previously causing my depression. The funny thing is the therapist disagrees completely with how this Addiction Doctor has handle me and is actually really annoyed at the stress they have caused me.

[JeanJM]

Thanks for that! I was on the same dose Codeine 240mg for 6 years and never had to have more and a lot of days I would actually have less my mood was always fine. I am now down to 150mg and going very good for the last month or so. No desires to use more, my mood has been normal and the only thing making me depressed at the moment is the way the Doctor is messing with me.

I even asked if they could taper me off the Codeine since I do not want to take Suboxone/Methadone and they said NOPE...I don't understand what they want from me? They took the Codeine Maintenance away that was working, switch me to DHC Sustained Released which messed me up and is now pushing Suboxone/Methadone and when I tell them I don't want to take that let me just taper off the Codeine instead, they won't let me.

I guess I will just have to do it myself

[nursegirl6572]

I agree that Sub or Methadone would be a bad option.  You would be switching to meds that are MUCH stronger, and yes, harder to get off of, typically.

IMO, you need a new doctor, one who will help you taper off the Codeine.

Opiates are NOT indicated nor appropriate for use in treating mood disorders.  The way they make you feel good and "normal" is why a vast majority of people get addicted in the first place, they end up self medicating with an opiate to treat symptoms of things like an anxiety disorder, depression, bi-polar.

It would be great if opiates didn't come with tolerance and dependency, because then they COULD be a viable option for treatment of mood disorders.  This is unfortunately a slippery slope....the very med that is helping you to function, and feel normal will eventually make you feel 100 times worse emotionally when you have to come off...and I'm sorry to say but that day WILL come.  You will continue to build a tolerance to your dose until you need more and more just to keep w/ds at bay.  There will havw to be an ending point, and based on what you've been on, it isn't too far in the future, so what better time to address this, but now?

I know NONE of this is what you want to hear...but it's true.  An opiate simply is NOT an appropriate long-term solution for emotional/mental symptoms, and you fully admit at this point, that's why you want to stay on it, and why you've been taking it.  Eventually, you'll be just chasing w/ds away, it will cease working for the sense of well being...and when that happens, you will experience a reemergence of the original symptoms (anxiety/depression), and most likely, they will be far worse, because now you've made yourself "chemically" happy, and your brain no longer is making those "happy" chemicals the way it should.

This doctor is a jerk.  I would wonder if he is somehow on someone's radar himself, because it sure seems as though he is trying to control you and your decisions.  Nothing you've said about this doctor leads me to believe he's thinking about anyone but himself, for some odd reason.  While I would classify you as an addict from what you've said, the things he has said to you are inexcuseable.  PLEASE find a doc who will help you slowly taper off the codeine, and also please find a professional mental health team to start addressing these issue, including the self medicating for the emotional symptoms.

I wish you the best!!

[JeanJM]

How childish is this, the Nurse who helps treat me won't return any of my phone calls to change which Pharmacy I pick up from. I just rang now and spoke to some guy who was really rude telling me that the Nurse is there and she will get back to me but he was speaking like she was right in front of him, then I heard her say "I call her back maybe sometime this week, maybe' before he hung up on me.

This is just getting really pathetic.

[JeanJM]

Well I saw the Doctor alone and now he's pushing Suboxone again aggressively onto me. Man I really got my hopes up about going back on the Codeine Maintenance and having some sort of normal life and trying to get a new job. This is causing so much more stress than I need at this point.

I also found out 150mg Codeine = 0.3 Buprenorphine and Suboxone in my country only comes as low as 2mg so I will have to take over 4x what is actually needed. This doesn't seem logical to me?