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Sub Detox Question???
I have a friend who getting ready to quit suboxone after 8months, he says he's down to .5mg daily for 2 weeks now. My question is does anyone know if him taking a short acting opiate(norco,perc's) after stopping will even help alleviate some of the withdrawals. I went through sub withdrawals for nearly 3wks, I did take 20mgs of valium for 2wks during that period and it helped some. I was constantly thinking about the valium after I stopped, my old addict self was really tempted to get more. Obviously that kind of behavior is what Im worried about with my friend, I dont know if even after 48-72hrs without sub, that the blocking effects of buprenorphine would be gone. I know its not the best idea, but my question still is does anyone think that it could help lessen the w/d's. All opinions are greatly appreciated, I understand that recommending this is somewhat contradicting, but I had to ask. Thanks in advance.
I need help. My daughter went on suboxone in july. About once a month she goes through withdrawls for several days of vomiting. She looks anorexic and I need advice on how to get her to stop these withdrawls and wean herself off of the suboxone. I think she takes about two tabs a day.
Just wanted to say thanks so much everyone, thats pretty much what I suspected but I just needed to ask for his sake. Ive been trying to discourage him of trying his method, I find it strange that his doctor would even suggest it to him. The good thing is he's very motivated to quit, and I probably dont help because I tell him how bad my own w/d's were when coming off. But I didnt take it as slow as you all suggested, I was on sub for 4months and the last 2wks was at .5mgs and off, not by choice but rather my doctor making the decision. Looking back I sure wish Id taken it slower because I suffered for a month of horrendous physical and mental withdrawals. One positive thing I can say about my sub experience is it showed me the consequences of using opiates. Thanks again to all, I will be sure to forward the info to my buddy, its been a long time since he and I were clean and sober at the same time. Take Care E1
Midnightoilwell has a lot of good information --- I can only go from experience and to answer your question, I can tell you that coming off of Sub is pure He!!. The key is to just want to be free more than you want anything else. I did want FREEDOM so I stopped taking Sub after 3 weeks when I had tapered to only a crumb. I went through the intense W/D's and came out the other side --- I can tell you that I am not a strong person - I just wanted to be free, so I went for it. I can truthfully say that after such agony, I am not even remotely interested nor do I have cravings for my old DOC -(Oxy). Even the thought is a 'turn off' because it reminds me of what I went through to get clean -- how could I ever do that to myself again --- I would advise anyone wanting to come off Sub to go for it -- it can be done -- just be willing to grit your teeth and bite the bullet. Wish you all the best.
WOW, that's like setting your house on fire so you don't get burned smoking!! I've been around buprenorphine since it's introduction So...
The idea of bupe is to
1. "Agonize" opiate receptor sites- ie replace other narcotics with one(bupe) that is legal and safer to use, preventing wdws and the physical and mental distress of "not using".
2. "Antagonize"opiate receptor sites-ie prevent any other narcotics used during this time from having much effect, thus discouraging the use of other drugs. This actually protects the user from getting high-if he does use other narcotics, it doesn't make him sick, but doesn't get him high either, so it discourages use.
3. Allows gradual tapering, IF SOMEONE IS READY TO QUIT ALTOGETHER, low, lower, lower, every other day, etc. until no bupe, no nothing.
Not everyone is ready to get off bupe completely. It may be safest, if your friend really wants to quit all narcs, to stay on a low dose bupe for a long,long time.
The blocking actions of the bupe will last for longer than the narcotic actions- he will be feeling low grade wdws before taking other narcotics will help him. He will end up in a day or two having to take big narcotic doses to feel the effects, and then the blocking action of the bupe starts wearing off, and about the 3rd or 4th day, when his wdws would be over from the bupe, he finds himself pretty wasted from the narcs, and he is either 1. ODing from the narcs, because the protection of the bupe is gone, or 2. realizing he's back addicted to the narcs again!
The moral of the story is 1. stay on the bupe until you are committed to using NO narcs... another month, another year, whatever. Some clinic docs can only prescribe to a certain number of patients at one time, so they like to get one gone so they can get another. The restrictions have been relaxed recently, and sometimes you just have to convince your doc you need more time.
2. other non narcotic meds can help with wdws, like you used valium, most prescribers of bupe will consider benzos to help with anxiety, or meds like clonadine helps the rapid heart rate, muscle contractions, physical panic feelings, and anti nausea meds. 0.5 mg of bupe is a tiny dose- he may not have any wdws at all, just that "hypoism" feeling that something is missing, or mental cravings. Small doses of narcs just prolong the agony, and will certainly make him want more. When you see an old friend, you want to embrace them, right?
3. consider long acting narcotic blocker like naltrexone, for AFTER ALL signs of wdw are over. It can be a security blanket for someone who might slip just once, and kick the whole cycle in again.
There is a web site called Suboxone talk zone, or something like that, that is run by a doctor that became addicted, and is now a user/prescriber of bupe himself. He seems to really have an understanding of how the drug works, and how it can be best used in individual situations like the one you mentioned. He has a blog, and I don't know how much advice he gives for free, and how much for fee, but it's worth a look.
Check out a book called Recovery Options, by Volpicelli. It presents many different reatments for recovery, including damage control--- how to stay safe even before you are drug free.
Your friend is trying hard to do the best thing, and has probably gone through so much, that it would be a shame if he got messed up when he is so close! Many addicts find that if they are seriously considering doing even a little bit of narcs, the whole craving cycle kicks in and it is very hard to resist.
Try to get him to seek an alternative from his doc other than small doses of narcs to relieve his wdws. Be sure he has the support of friends/family when he needs it. Good luck.
The idea of bupe is to
1. "Agonize" opiate receptor sites- ie replace other narcotics with one(bupe) that is legal and safer to use, preventing wdws and the physical and mental distress of "not using".
2. "Antagonize"opiate receptor sites-ie prevent any other narcotics used during this time from having much effect, thus discouraging the use of other drugs. This actually protects the user from getting high-if he does use other narcotics, it doesn't make him sick, but doesn't get him high either, so it discourages use.
3. Allows gradual tapering, IF SOMEONE IS READY TO QUIT ALTOGETHER, low, lower, lower, every other day, etc. until no bupe, no nothing.
Not everyone is ready to get off bupe completely. It may be safest, if your friend really wants to quit all narcs, to stay on a low dose bupe for a long,long time.
The blocking actions of the bupe will last for longer than the narcotic actions- he will be feeling low grade wdws before taking other narcotics will help him. He will end up in a day or two having to take big narcotic doses to feel the effects, and then the blocking action of the bupe starts wearing off, and about the 3rd or 4th day, when his wdws would be over from the bupe, he finds himself pretty wasted from the narcs, and he is either 1. ODing from the narcs, because the protection of the bupe is gone, or 2. realizing he's back addicted to the narcs again!
The moral of the story is 1. stay on the bupe until you are committed to using NO narcs... another month, another year, whatever. Some clinic docs can only prescribe to a certain number of patients at one time, so they like to get one gone so they can get another. The restrictions have been relaxed recently, and sometimes you just have to convince your doc you need more time.
2. other non narcotic meds can help with wdws, like you used valium, most prescribers of bupe will consider benzos to help with anxiety, or meds like clonadine helps the rapid heart rate, muscle contractions, physical panic feelings, and anti nausea meds. 0.5 mg of bupe is a tiny dose- he may not have any wdws at all, just that "hypoism" feeling that something is missing, or mental cravings. Small doses of narcs just prolong the agony, and will certainly make him want more. When you see an old friend, you want to embrace them, right?
3. consider long acting narcotic blocker like naltrexone, for AFTER ALL signs of wdw are over. It can be a security blanket for someone who might slip just once, and kick the whole cycle in again.
There is a web site called Suboxone talk zone, or something like that, that is run by a doctor that became addicted, and is now a user/prescriber of bupe himself. He seems to really have an understanding of how the drug works, and how it can be best used in individual situations like the one you mentioned. He has a blog, and I don't know how much advice he gives for free, and how much for fee, but it's worth a look.
Check out a book called Recovery Options, by Volpicelli. It presents many different reatments for recovery, including damage control--- how to stay safe even before you are drug free.
Your friend is trying hard to do the best thing, and has probably gone through so much, that it would be a shame if he got messed up when he is so close! Many addicts find that if they are seriously considering doing even a little bit of narcs, the whole craving cycle kicks in and it is very hard to resist.
Try to get him to seek an alternative from his doc other than small doses of narcs to relieve his wdws. Be sure he has the support of friends/family when he needs it. Good luck.
Go for the .25 for 5 days then start skipping every other day for a week, then go to every third day for another week- and so forth. When you get to .25 every 5 days, you are done. Long and low is the way to go. Also, drinking lots of water and exercising until a sweat is broken helps clear the system.
I am on sub, but no where ready to stop, i have 2 friends that did.
they were taking less then 2 mg every other day for a few weeks then
eventually they were gone. some discomfort? yes but not enough to miss work
if it was my friend, i'd say taper down more until it's just a crumb
good luck to you both
paaddict
they were taking less then 2 mg every other day for a few weeks then
eventually they were gone. some discomfort? yes but not enough to miss work
if it was my friend, i'd say taper down more until it's just a crumb
good luck to you both
paaddict
Yes, I would do as cathy says. You don't want to take opiates which is what he is taking the sub to get of off in the first place..........too dangerous!
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