Suboxene the "NEW" methadone

[godezzofchaos]

Is it just me or does it seem like Suboxene is NOW , what methadone used to be?  I just read a post that said "what is the harm in staying on it , at a low dose if it keeps you clean"  well that is EXACTLY how (my clinic anyway) looks at MMT(methadone maintence). I for one think there is absolutly nothing wrong with taking it everyday if you use it the way it should be...addiction is a disease, that perhaps we have finally found the treatment for.  No one downs a diabetic for taking their insulin??  Just a thought.  It will be interesting to see what the consensus is on Suboxene 10 years from now...as we all know ..hind sight is 20/20!!!

[avisg]

LB its happens to  all of us   my hands are so much slower then my brain its funny for me to sometimes look at what have have written my brain will be a sentance ahead of what I have written .one of these days I am going to get one of the progarms that I talk and it types LOL

[LB5060]

Yes, you misunderstood and I typed that line in the wrong place...sometimes my hands type faster than my brain thinks and often I am too lazy to go back and proofread what I just wrote before posting!

That statement was not directed at you....it was just a general statement and should have been for another post :-)  I was just stating who am I (or anyone) to judge another person? We all have the same goal in mind and how we get there is a personal choice and journey and I want everyone to be supportive of an individual's choice :-)

[rhino21]

I think that our situation,limits and dictates our options ,Goddezz,hasnt the luxary to just drop everything and detox off methadone...but I think she would if she could.
Ideally we all want to reclaim the ability to wake in the morning,only having to face the things life throw at us before drugs entered our lives.and deal with day to day events.
To get back home is often impossible.So,we go forward the best we can.
Rhino

[botchedup]

The fear of and the torture of withdrawals (add to that chronic pain) and we all have ourselves in a bit of a pickle don't we?  After multiple surgeries, hospitializations, plastics, Anesthesia,morphine, pain pills, patches, doctors, clinics, etc., I can pretty much say with much assurance that suboxone can be a  decent recovery tool HOWEVER, you need to take the time to educate yourself on dosage, half life, agonistic properties, etc.  With chronic pain dependence is inevitable, and when one's dosage for pain is losing it's efficacy you have a few choices.  Time released long acting opioids, methadone, or Bupe.  Of course Buprenorphine (Subutex/Suboxone) produces analgesia, it's been used in European countries for decades. It produces no euphoria and causes constipation.  When I was facing more surgery, I had to w/d off of Bupe using Oxycodone7.5/325, only instead of prescribing the 3 to 4 a day, the Doctor wrote the script for double my original dose.  I was NEVER told that the the Bupe was so much stronger( six months on it), only that it was "different" due to properites and mean half life.  There are MANY reasons why dr.s aren't giving the specifics-too many to list but $$$, DEA, FDA, and $$$!.  I was introduced to Bupe in 2005, Stigma's here kids.  Just last spring there was an article in my local paper about it, no mention of "miracles", tried and true european analgesic, just a newbie to the black market of junkie's and drug addicts. My  Dr.'s office for the longest time did not require me to sign any contracts because he feared the stigma I would suffer at the hands of other doctor's and surgeons.  Another Doc who filled in one time told me she wasn't comfortable with the Bupe because of it's ceiling effect and that addicts were overdosing, I was horrified because I thought taking a pain pill on sub would throw me into w/d's, but no, it's just blocked some so you feel it just enough to maybe start that "frequent dosing" that can be VERY dangerous.   Needless to say the nurse was not happy that she told me that.  So, I was definitely led to believe wrong information so I wouldn't "mess up".  So Doc prescribes it  "off label" for pain.  There is nothing like it for chasing away the withdrawals, and having to be in FULL W/D makes that first Bupe appt feel like a miracle.  You instantly feel how you did before you ever took one! That's the thing,,I am a chronic pain patient but I know that what opiates do to our brains is inevitable.  PROPER opiate therapy has been proven to actually cure chronic pain but that is only when it is supervised by a doctor and is opiates not opioids.  I'm sure that there are not many doctors in the US who are able or willing to do this so again, facing chronic pain?  legal choices are: time released long acting synthetics (ms contin) or time released long acting synthetics (methadone).  Chronic pain is a disease just as addiction is.  For the chronic pain patient, they go hand in hand.  Many refuse to admit this but eventually, if you are 60 yrs or younger, and have non-cancerous chronic pain, you're going to have to make the decision to be a lifer, or to find another way to deal.. I do not say this lightly or without compassion, I am missing body parts.  Bupe definitely has antidepressant properties as well. The w/d's are a bit reminiscent of how you feel when your doc puts you on tramadol/ultram to deal with issues of your tolerance or his license:)  Until the jury is in, ( or Harvard Med School proves it) on whether long term opiate/opioid use permanently changes brain chemistry, My experience and opinion is this:  Opiates occur naturally in the body, If any human takes any amount at regular intervals, in the absence of moderate to severe ACUTE pain, dependence and addiction set in.  I've heard it put this way, (figuratively) "Taking opioids, with no pain present, the brain 'grows' receptors that need to be fed".  Nobody needs to be a hero when it comes to quitting opiates either.  Withdrawals are inevitable....common sense says, the slower the taper, the easier it is. I assume this accounts for most of the testimonials that w/d's are easier on Sub, but I 'd bet it's probably more likely the doctor and the office setting, Insurance covers it for most and if not it pays out the ###!  I'd bet as well that the most torturous withdrawals have been at the hands of many a medical professional with no humanity and 3 credits of "abberrant drug behavior" taught now to medical students under the Bush administration.  Nice huh? I digress.  Knowing in your heart and planning for the length of time the withdrawals will last.  So to my peers out there in "wondering about Suboxone-Subutex-Buprenorphine, In my humble(and I do mean humble) opinion:  For me:  If you've had a > or =  30-50 mg habit of 6mo - 5 yrs, and you are on your way up, having symptoms of hyperalgesia, you have a doctors office, and you want to maintain, or HAVE to maintain but truly want to feel "normal" and "sober" even, and you will, AND you are willing to accept that you are by most people's standards not really clean, (not that you should care but always be prepared for stigma in any type of "recovery") AND depending on your dose and frequency, may possibly be putting something even stronger in your body, I'd say go for it.  Any taper is tough and with Bupe and a GOOD doc, It's no worse and no better than coming off a short acting full agonist, they both suck!  And to top it all off, I'd say for every year of toll on the body, there's six months to repair, so 7 years--3 1/2 to fully recover.  Remember tho, the body doesn't like shock.  Prepare and plan your withdrawal carefully, don't be afraid to ask for help, be patient and treat yourself like a patient, baby yourself, say no to others, take this time for yourself so you can go on being there for your loved ones for years to come.  One last important thing: I know I know we hear it all the time but tis true:  Exercise is a great replacement for anything but especially for us, endorphins do naturally what opioids do synthetically, endorphins make you feel high, and give you long lasting boosts of energy.  Fill that void with exercise and you'll have a leg up on it I promise.  

[mr.lucky66]

Long term sub and methadone are viewed as harm redution therapy by the medical community. They are supposed to be used as a treatment of last resort for the addicts who have failed mulitple times. If someone fits that criteria, I think it's fine to take these drugs instead of the alternitive. I can't say if someone is clean or not while on sub or methadone and that's for them to decide. Most people on the meth clinics I was on weren't clean as they smoked pot, drank , took pills ect along with the done. I'm all for someone if they take sub or done because they can't stop as long as they don't get high on other drugs.

[worried878]

Eagle and I talk about these choices often/hope u dont mine my sharing/ (:  we are both chronic pain patients with a past addiction....i have told him that if i ever have to use to keep working..then it would also be a choice for life as I would not plan to detox..so i doubt this decision will ever be made ...but if i had to i would choose methadone due to the higher pain relief properties/it would be my only reasonable choice...meth is hard t get off of but so is sub with long use /high doses...like i said that would be when i knew i would never quit...and it is fiction to me as i hope that day never comes

[godezzofchaos]

^5 EAGLE!!  

[122 Tactical Fighter Group]

About just using your DOC instead of going on a substitute ... whomever said that (BULLDOG) does not know the physiological differences between long term use of hydro, oxy or whatever compared to the use of either sub or meth.....the others are much harder on your body....thats a good reason to switch....

[godezzofchaos]

I hope I am misunderstanding your post LB5060..I NEVER HAVE TOLD ANYONE THAT HOW THEY GOT SOBER IS WRONG!  Perhaps I am misunderstanding..lol, alot gets lost over a keyboard!  

Our stories are very similiar and I am glad to hear that others have had success with such controversial drugs!  

I'm at work..gotta run! Sorry if I misunderstand your post, perhaps I'm PARANOID!!  lmao

[Sunnyd210]

Well since we are having a nice discussion :) I wanted to share that I used methadone to get off norcos and it worked great for me. I think both sub and meth are great tools if used correctly and unfortunatly drs dont prescribe them the right way and it ends up making things worse. I was on a low dose of methadone and tapered weekly for a month. I still went through withdrawels from the norco but not as bad as I wouldve w/out the methadone.

[LB5060]

Our situations are a lot alike! Who are we to tell anyone that the way they got sober is wrong?  I personally tried quitting many, many times and was not able to do it.  I also didn't have the time to lie around for 2-3 weeks (or longer because I was a HEAVY user)and be sick because I have kids, job and responsibilities and nobody to help.  I once quit for an entire week and saw no end in sight with the withdrawls so I made one simple phone call and within an hour I had my pills and felt great again and I was right back in that sick world.  I have been researching Suboxone the last few years and once I was ready I was extremely fortunate to find a compassionate doctor that isn't in it just for the money.  The key to any success program is to truly being mentally ready. If you aren't there mentally then I don't think you will be successful long term with any program. You have to do it for yourself.
To everyone on here who is sober...regardless of how they got there...you should be very proud of yourselves.  To anyone that is needing help and turns to this forum please know that it can be done. Research different options and find what will work for you and we will all be here to support you!

[avisg]

LB, slow is the best way I truly hope you have little or minimal wd .We have had  long term users have there fair share of wd coming off of it. Everybody's body is different as well as having different doctors. I hope it goes smoothly for you when you decide to stop taking it .

[LB5060]

My doctor has told me that wd from Suboxone does not have to be miserable if it is done correctly.  In the past people were treated with Sub for about 20 days and then barely tapered and then stopped and the wds were horrible and the patient ends up seeking the opiates again to not be sick.  My doctor is a firm believer in doing it EXTREMELY slow and I have talked to many people now that did the very slow tapering method and did not have ANY withdrawl symptoms at all so that is encouraging to me.

[godezzofchaos]

FIRST, Thank you SAD for your continued and unwavering support...you are the best!  I cannot take the credit for this post, although I began the orginal thread, everyone has been so respectful in listening to each other's stories...I applaud you all!!

LB5060, my story is very similar to yours in that methadone did for me what Suboxene did for you, so I fully support your choice.  I think what this entire thread has succeded in doing is bring the fact that EACH PERSON and SITUATION IS DIFFERENT, therefore their detox and recovery will be as unique as they are.  

I'm proud of everyone, and wish there were more people like the ones who shared here..YOU ALL ROCK!!

Regards,
Cyndi

PS>  Sad you are an inspiration and I admire your character. I'm proud to call you a friend!

[GoingToMakeIt]

Good for you getting your life back! You have made a very good choice. It is for your type of use and addiction that Sub should be used. Personally I oppose it's use for the person who is not a 'hardcore' addict or has not even tried to quit a couple of times yet.

[LB5060]

Thanks to those of you that understand what I am saying and for having my back (Coolio you ROCK!). I am not adicted to the Suboxone and even if I was it is a hell of a better choice than being addicted to opiates! I am no longer draining my bank account, doing crazy **** to get pills, doctor shopping, lying to everyone, spending my entire day trying to make a deal happen and I could go on and on but anyone who has been really addicted to opiates knows what type of life that is.  I honestly don't care what anyone thinks of me for using Suboxone but I know it has changed (saved) my life and if I had continued down the path I was on that I would be facing imminent death.  The only reason I am posting to defend my choice is the fact that I would hate to see someone come to this board looking for help and read what a few ignorant people have posted about Suboxone (or methadone) and then make a choice to stay on the opiates instead of getting help because they feel like Suboxone/methadone is evil, etc.  Whatever works to keep you off the pills has got to be a better choice.  I extensively researched Suboxone and the doctors that prescribed it before making my decision and I am 100% confident that I made the right one.  

[sadinmichigan]

I felt the need to bring this post..BTT  because this is the way these discussions about methadone and suboxone should go.....a few may want to take note...this is the nicest post I think we have had on this subject since I have been here since January..thanks again Goddezz for posting this..you rock..

[Coolio Hernendez]

Yeah...this post is what its all about.

Its cool that someone on methadone got to tell their story without being attacked. I bet this post will really open some eyes and change the way people comment here...i hope

[godezzofchaos]

So glad you all enjoyed the thread..ya never know when ya post a comment. Thanks for the love and support everyone, as a current methadone user I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to FINALLY have support...being in AGREEMENT with my choice is different than SUPPORTING my choice, once we all learn and know the difference true acceptance can be had.  I have that from you guys, and especially from my new and hopefully lasting friendship with SAD. She and I are on complete opposite sides of the spectrum, a sort of "RECOVERY ODD-COUPLE" but we agree to listen and support and I value her views and input, as I know she does mine. Thanks again!!

[ochooked]

Totally agree with Avis 100% ----- This has been one of those threads where, for the most part, everyone can express their view and no one gives or receives offense --.  This is the 'model' for the whole site and I am proud to be here --- -- I received so much from the people on this site as I had a chance to see 'big' hearts ----- and I received so much help and encouragement ---- I am so impressed with those who got clean and then returned to help others who still struggle.  All the best.

[avisg]

yeah hopefully discussions like this can contue this helps people understand and make informed decisions that is the best for them .There is no reason this can't continue people should not be afraid to voice there opinions out of fear of being attacked

[godezzofchaos]

Well, ya know it all comes down to INDIVIDUALIZED treatment. With this disease there is no BLANKET way that works for everyone. It's only through discussions and sharing ideas and experiences that we can hopefully one day find something that cures this disease ONCE AND FOR ALL!  Until then , my friend SAD said it best....WELL DONE!!

[sadinmichigan]

LOL..I have to say. i think this is the first time that we were all able to have a calm discussion about this. I am happy about that..job well done my friends..As we all have stated..we need to help each other and inform one another best we can with respect and kindness, since we are all here for a common goal. Love you all...Lisa

[godezzofchaos]

I totally agree with you WORRIED...in 10 years SUB will have the stigma. I am sorry for your friend's experience and perhaps we can encourage her to come back, as I think through mutual respect we can ALL gain knowledge and KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!  I feel her pain, I have been on methadone for 8 years at the SAME dose of 150mg, I too get "bashed" from time to time, but I just have to chuckle to myself and remember .."those who live in glass houses ..should NOT throw stones!!"