Aa
Healthy debate
What r your thoughts on long term sub use. Is a person clean/ in recovery while on subs? Do u have to work a program to b clean.? Do u have to b totaly sober to b clean? I went to an NA meeting and was basically kicked out bc was on subs. Maybe I'm naive but isn't not using DOC. The goal I know we all have different ideas on this. Let's keep it respectful. Or is this subject too heated to continue Thank u.
This is always a tough one. After I came out of treatment, I went to outpatient, and they put me in the suboxone group, because almost all the opiate addicts there were on subs. Honestly, I thought at first that these people were taking a short cut, or not as serious about recovery as I was. I may have even thought I was better than them (ha!), because I toughed out the hellish cold turkey from pills and alcohol. As I got to know and listened to them, I realized, for the ones who were serious about recovery, this may be the only way for some of them to get there. They were on a taper plan, they were honest, they were gaining the tools to change their lives. I am a meeting person, and I couldn't understand why more of them weren't going to meetings. I asked the counselor about it, and she told me that a lot of times people on subs are shunned at meetings, and maybe they should just not mention it. But the biggest (and best) part of being in recovery for me is being honest and open. So some wouldn't go, because what's the point if they can't be honest? It's a shame, really, they should have to wait til they get off the subs to really start a program? It just seems counterproductive to me. If subs are used correctly, with aftercare, they can be a lifesaver, for someone who has not been able to quit otherwise.
That said, I am also more of an AA person, and some meetings I have been to don't want people to even identify as an addict at that particular meeting, and keep all sharing to alcohol, which I find strange, but that is just how that meeting is. Try another one, or two, or 10, til you find the right one. As far as whether you are clean, I would agree with Weaver, sober on subs, not quite clean, and I hate to even say that, but it seems technically correct.:)
Allison
That said, I am also more of an AA person, and some meetings I have been to don't want people to even identify as an addict at that particular meeting, and keep all sharing to alcohol, which I find strange, but that is just how that meeting is. Try another one, or two, or 10, til you find the right one. As far as whether you are clean, I would agree with Weaver, sober on subs, not quite clean, and I hate to even say that, but it seems technically correct.:)
Allison
Actually, we agree and are on the same page with this...I think location is definitely a factor and I've noticed that difference when I've attended meetings in my hometown as opposed to the larger city where I live.
I think the bigger issue is why are folks on Sub and methadone so damn long?? This wouldn't be an issue if folks were on and off in a few weeks! Money, money, money...And, you're right, it's fine if you don't talk in a meeting until you're off whatever...but that doesn't work for me!! lol
I think the bigger issue is why are folks on Sub and methadone so damn long?? This wouldn't be an issue if folks were on and off in a few weeks! Money, money, money...And, you're right, it's fine if you don't talk in a meeting until you're off whatever...but that doesn't work for me!! lol
Oh yeah, all my opinions on this are based on the assumption the OP was not acting all stoned out on subs and asked to leave. I also want to be clear that subs are the second most powerful opioid made. They should be used with extreme caution. It angers me when hydro or per addicts end up on subs for a year, they just went wayyy up in dosage and addiction.
My understanding is don't talk if you aren't sober yet, which I agree with. I haven't been in a stoned meeting, usually one at a time is all I have seen. The smell of alcohol was the worst and that person came twice and disappeared. An alcoholic on norco was allowed to stay as long as he was tapering, and he is clean several months now. I can see your point about half a room of stoned people, way too distracting. I guess the individual basis was my actual point. The nurse I mentioned was not acting high, nobody knew until she tried to be honest, big mistake for her. She is a respected member of our town and hospital. I think if someone is obviously high more than once, I say have an intervention. I wish doctors wouldn't put people on 16-32mhs for years, but they do. Around here AA is about all there is, other than one on one therapy, which isn't enough for me. AA is changing. 20 years ago I was asked to leave for even mentioning I used drugs. Now, half the members have been on some pain med, but sub is a mystery to most. So, it's a matter of time. My small mountain town definitely skews my view, and I know that. I bet larger cities have to have that rule, total sobriety. Here, they go by the book, Desire and respect for the other members is all they require. Great topic.
I remember posts like the 16 months ago, already the discussion is way more civil. Progress is everywhere. Nothing is absolute but change.
I remember posts like the 16 months ago, already the discussion is way more civil. Progress is everywhere. Nothing is absolute but change.
Hi Weaver- That's perfectly fine; we're not going to agree on everything...for me, I appreciate the rules and goals of AA. It works for a lot of people and there have to be limits of what's going to be acceptable. I am not a member of AA although I attended many meetings early on. At one point I was also invited to leave...lol...because I was still taking my DOC. Unlike with opiates, I had to taper this drug and I did it over many months. It didn't matter...
I still found support and back up elsewhere and have come to understand AA a little better. I don't entirely agree with them because I think it needs to be a case by case decision but they're not going to change.
On the other hand, have you been to an NA meeting where it seems like half the room is stoned out of their gourd? It can really **** a girl off! I've been to a few groups that were similar and just had to walk out...and that's why I understand AA's philosophy...
I'm glad we can have these little talks... :)
I still found support and back up elsewhere and have come to understand AA a little better. I don't entirely agree with them because I think it needs to be a case by case decision but they're not going to change.
On the other hand, have you been to an NA meeting where it seems like half the room is stoned out of their gourd? It can really **** a girl off! I've been to a few groups that were similar and just had to walk out...and that's why I understand AA's philosophy...
I'm glad we can have these little talks... :)
I have used Subs in the past to get off of Norco/vics and trams. I did NOT consider myself "clean" because subs in themselves are an opiate so honestly..... NOT CLEAN WHEN ON SUBS. It is wrong of them to kick you out though, but keep in mind that many people use and abuse subs so I can also see there side a bit, but it was too harsh.
Yes they "seem" like a lifesaver when coming off of your drug of choice, but honestly the WD's from coming off of subs is worse. I wish to god they had never put me on subs to get off of opiates as my withdrawal from coming off the subs was terrifying to say the least. Try getting off the subs as soon as you can. Talk to your doctor to being the taper process and get off the stuff ASAP!
Yes they "seem" like a lifesaver when coming off of your drug of choice, but honestly the WD's from coming off of subs is worse. I wish to god they had never put me on subs to get off of opiates as my withdrawal from coming off the subs was terrifying to say the least. Try getting off the subs as soon as you can. Talk to your doctor to being the taper process and get off the stuff ASAP!
I highly respect Vicki, so I am comfortable about disagreeing with her. A nurse in my meetings was tapering off Suboxone, this is not my home group. She was honest about it and her sponsor dumped her and people started vibing her out. She left to not return and is on them a year later. With no good sub doctors here, she feels alone and stuck, so sad. I asked the secretary of the meeting why she was made to feel unwelcome, she did Desire to be clean, just like the Big Book says is the ONLY requirement. He said she was on it too long and he thought she would have quit by then if she really wanted to be off ALL mood altering chemicals. I explIned subs take time to taper and she tried cold turkey 3 times already. He didn my get it,so I asked what about the most addictive drugs on the planet, nicotine and caffeine? He said those drugs don't get you very high and don't have major consequences. I didn't agree and asked if he would suggest taking a shot of espresso while smoking a cigarette the first time while driving. Of coarse he wouldn't, you could crash from the buzz. The I asked about emphazema, heart disease, and cancer, are those not major consequences and isn't nicotine a seriously mood altering chemical? Stop for : days and tell me your mood is not effected. He said it was different. I said not really and left it at that.
I do not know if I would have tapered off subs as easily without my meetings. My sponsor asked me about it. I told him I wouldn't suggest taking it the first time while driving, but it felt like a strong cup of coffee each morning. He could see that once I was used to it, just like caffeine or tobacco, it was not altering my mood severely at all. By observing me he decided it would be fine but wanted me to keep tapering off it. I agreed. Unlike tolerance to nicotine, one can continue to get high for years with methadone. Taking extra at any time could get me high. TAking extra sub felt like an extra cup of caffeine. We know the severe consequences of the mood altering chemicals of nicotine and NA almost glorifies it's use. It has no positive use in recovery and is a major cause of death, subs doesn't have either of those things against it. I feel it is pure and simple bias.
Now, this is not a commercial to sell subs. Total sobriety, including subs AND nicotine is what I think is ideal. I don't think long term use of subs is a good idea at all. I think high dose subs is a real bad idea. The point I am making here is, if you really want to be clean, are not causing problems in meetings, and are working a program to make that happen, I see no reason why I wouldn't reach out to that person and offer that person the help they need. Good sub programs require meetings. My nurse friend nor the doctor who gave her subs knew what she was getting into. Now she hAs no one to help her and I fear has given up for now. The only thing she was doing wrong was taking her meds as prescribed, there are folks taking Hydros and that is okay, as long as used as prescribed and for a legit reason. If they don't ACT high In meetings, they are welcome. I don't see why subs get such a strong judgement from people. Discernment and being critical is important, but rejecting to help someone who truly desires help goes against everything I believe. Be it heroine, methAdone, nicotine, porn, cutting, anorexia, subs or anything. You don't have to be a preacher to go to church, you don't have to be an achieved scholar to go to school, you shouldn't have to be totally clean to go to NA. Obviously only an opinion, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
That same meeting that chased of a sub 'victim', had a sponsor go pick up their sponcee and brought her to a meeting totally smashed on Tequilla. We heard she was struggling and was suicidal, so we put out an NA APB, we found her with her head on the table in a Mexican resteraunt drunk. That experience of shame helped her realize she was going the wrong way. She came back and apologized. That was okay, but subs are looked at as worse somehow. Anyway, just wanted to share about some bias I have seen.
I don't advocate or suggest subs accept in severe cases, I want that to be clear, I just think everyone deserves a chance. I'm sure glad I was given one.
I do not know if I would have tapered off subs as easily without my meetings. My sponsor asked me about it. I told him I wouldn't suggest taking it the first time while driving, but it felt like a strong cup of coffee each morning. He could see that once I was used to it, just like caffeine or tobacco, it was not altering my mood severely at all. By observing me he decided it would be fine but wanted me to keep tapering off it. I agreed. Unlike tolerance to nicotine, one can continue to get high for years with methadone. Taking extra at any time could get me high. TAking extra sub felt like an extra cup of caffeine. We know the severe consequences of the mood altering chemicals of nicotine and NA almost glorifies it's use. It has no positive use in recovery and is a major cause of death, subs doesn't have either of those things against it. I feel it is pure and simple bias.
Now, this is not a commercial to sell subs. Total sobriety, including subs AND nicotine is what I think is ideal. I don't think long term use of subs is a good idea at all. I think high dose subs is a real bad idea. The point I am making here is, if you really want to be clean, are not causing problems in meetings, and are working a program to make that happen, I see no reason why I wouldn't reach out to that person and offer that person the help they need. Good sub programs require meetings. My nurse friend nor the doctor who gave her subs knew what she was getting into. Now she hAs no one to help her and I fear has given up for now. The only thing she was doing wrong was taking her meds as prescribed, there are folks taking Hydros and that is okay, as long as used as prescribed and for a legit reason. If they don't ACT high In meetings, they are welcome. I don't see why subs get such a strong judgement from people. Discernment and being critical is important, but rejecting to help someone who truly desires help goes against everything I believe. Be it heroine, methAdone, nicotine, porn, cutting, anorexia, subs or anything. You don't have to be a preacher to go to church, you don't have to be an achieved scholar to go to school, you shouldn't have to be totally clean to go to NA. Obviously only an opinion, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
That same meeting that chased of a sub 'victim', had a sponsor go pick up their sponcee and brought her to a meeting totally smashed on Tequilla. We heard she was struggling and was suicidal, so we put out an NA APB, we found her with her head on the table in a Mexican resteraunt drunk. That experience of shame helped her realize she was going the wrong way. She came back and apologized. That was okay, but subs are looked at as worse somehow. Anyway, just wanted to share about some bias I have seen.
I don't advocate or suggest subs accept in severe cases, I want that to be clear, I just think everyone deserves a chance. I'm sure glad I was given one.
I've always known about AA and NA's philosophy and that's all it is. If you think you're clean and you're in recovery and you feel like you're on the road to being sober then that's great.
The fact is, however, that Sub is an opiate. Period. You can get high on Sub and people do all the time. People also stay on it for years and that's not how it was meant to work. AA feels the same about folks on Methadone. It's an opiate and you can get high on it. I have to say I agree with the philosophy in that respect. I wouldn't be happy sitting in on a meeting with even one person high...So this eliminates that chance even if you, personally, don't feel high at all and even though it's not your DOC.
As far as what I would consider being clean...I have the same opinion as Ricart shared already.
Long term Sub use is just not good for you. I think it's great for three weeks or a month to assist if you just can't stop on your own but after a long time it's just horrible to withdraw from. Then what do you do and what do you take?
The fact is, however, that Sub is an opiate. Period. You can get high on Sub and people do all the time. People also stay on it for years and that's not how it was meant to work. AA feels the same about folks on Methadone. It's an opiate and you can get high on it. I have to say I agree with the philosophy in that respect. I wouldn't be happy sitting in on a meeting with even one person high...So this eliminates that chance even if you, personally, don't feel high at all and even though it's not your DOC.
As far as what I would consider being clean...I have the same opinion as Ricart shared already.
Long term Sub use is just not good for you. I think it's great for three weeks or a month to assist if you just can't stop on your own but after a long time it's just horrible to withdraw from. Then what do you do and what do you take?
I have to say that I was surprised at how much subs effected me, so they definitely alter the mind. I later found out that 4 mgs of sub is enough to block 80% of the receptors concerned with emotion. Compared to 250mgs of methadone, I was sober. Compared to several months with no mind altering chemicals, I was definitely high. For me, it was relatively sober and did give a chance to form a recovery plan. The detox was easier than high dose methadone also, but by no means easy. I can see both points of view, so I think it is a very individual opinion. Those who use them short term successfully say use them short term, those who use them long term successfully say use them longer term to form a new life, and those with bad experience say stay away from them. For example I am biased about methadone, I like subs better, but that is how those two drugs effected me. Whatever you believe works for you, I say call it what you want, I support your progress.
Oh...sorry about the NA thing. I've ran into myself before. A number of "clean" NA attendees view subs as you are still in active addiction, which I don't agree with. I do see their point, but I believe that the step being taken is within the charter of NA.
I will be 3 weeks clean tomorrow off suboxone. I was on it for 6.5 years after being on opiates for over 10 years. I received it at a rehab clinic I went to, to get off opiates and feel I was done a disservice. I will admit that when I went to the clinic I was ecstatic....give me a pill to take away the pain I'm in from being off pills - played right into my addict mindset. I was sick for a day and then got significantly better. I was on 16 mg/day in the clinic and for about 4 years. I then switched doctors and began a very long taper...I was down to 2 mg/day and went off them. I am still experiencing a lot of the wds, but things are significantly better this week than last. Unfortunately subs take a long time to recover from. Their half-life is longer and from being on them for a long time your body is just conditioned to deal with their doping effect and overcoming to be able to function. Now that the doping effect is gone your body is riding "high" (no pun intended). As in your body doesn't have to fight the drugs any longer and is running on ultra. It now has to reaccess and get back to zero. Unfortunately for someone like myself....my body has been the other way for so long who knows if I'll ever be "right". I will be as good as I can be. I think suboxone is great for someone that has is consuming such large quantities of opiates that stopping is dangerous. It's other advantage is it does help you start getting away from some of the more destructive addict behaviors. But, when it comes down to it....you aren't sober/clean. Getting off them is the ultimate goal...and who really wants to be dependent on anything that is mind altering. And yes...subs are mind altering....
At some point a price has to be paid when coming off of you DOC...the sooner the better. Good Luck and keep posting.
At some point a price has to be paid when coming off of you DOC...the sooner the better. Good Luck and keep posting.
You may also want to look for meetings that are open; where I live the majority of them are open. I went to a closed AA mtg and was told it wasn't appropriate. So many people are cross addicted that most of the people in AA are addicts as well. There are also meetings specifically designed for newcomers; you may want to start there. Again, I'm so sorry for how you were treated.
I'm with weaver on that . I have abused every drug and form of alcohol so for me being clean is being off of every mind altering substance excluding anti depressant meds. I am also off of antidepressants but I don't include them as mind altering. Antidepressant are just not in any way similar to any drug of abuse and I think if people need them they should definitely take them
In my opinion, being clean is being off everything. Taking Suboxone means your in recovery. In my town there is a meeting once a week for people taking Suboxone, NA and AA groups get heated if a Subxone user attends.
I feel the same as kbusymom, AA is a better fit even though alcohol was not my DOC. To help others, you may speak to the secretary of that meeting and ask them to state that complete sobriety is required and tell them it shouldn't be called NA. They have created a new thing, which is fine, but calling it NA suggests they follow NA rules, which they don't. It seems like you were deceived and that is unfair, especially for your first meeting.
Yes it's very helpful what you wrote, they did tell me at the meeting it was a different kind of group. Sorry I don't recall the terminology they used But in essence it's for sober people not people still using and they considered subs still using And asked that I come back when sober. I like what weaver wrote It took so much courage for me to go and I got that reception I'll try again somewhere different Thank u everyone
Hey there! Why don't you start your own thread. Just go to the ask a question link at the top of the page. Tell your story and you will get lots of advice, support, and encouragement. There are quite a few folks on here that have quit subs and are still clean today. Please stick around and keep posting. It can be done. You can do this!!
I have no experience with subs, but my brother in law wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for subs. He's been on them for a long time now. I think when used as prescribed they are a good step in making recovery possible for someone like him, who spent years and years as a heavy opiate user.
What bothers me is you getting kicked out of an NA meeting! If you download the "NA basic text" which is a free download, and read page 102 and 103 you'll read a direct contradiction to what happened to you. It pertains to pain medication, but I think it would apply to an Addiction Doctor's prescription for a step down drug, as an addict fights for their total freedom. Some meetings have a bi-law that "if you used today we ask that you don't share, but please talk to someone after the meeting". Nowhere does it say in our book or anywhere else, that an NA member can kick anyone out of an NA meeting (unless someone is bringing in weapons or drugs). Pretty much, no one is really in charge at our meetings with the exception of a loving God as we understand Him (which is one of our other traditions). We're all equals. Please feel welcomed at our meetings. As a new person, in many ways, you're the most important person to be attending our meetings.
What bothers me is you getting kicked out of an NA meeting! If you download the "NA basic text" which is a free download, and read page 102 and 103 you'll read a direct contradiction to what happened to you. It pertains to pain medication, but I think it would apply to an Addiction Doctor's prescription for a step down drug, as an addict fights for their total freedom. Some meetings have a bi-law that "if you used today we ask that you don't share, but please talk to someone after the meeting". Nowhere does it say in our book or anywhere else, that an NA member can kick anyone out of an NA meeting (unless someone is bringing in weapons or drugs). Pretty much, no one is really in charge at our meetings with the exception of a loving God as we understand Him (which is one of our other traditions). We're all equals. Please feel welcomed at our meetings. As a new person, in many ways, you're the most important person to be attending our meetings.
I've been using subs for three years now. Not alot, about a half a day, 4 mg. I have a very demanding job, I do pca work and it's pretty much 24 /7 I am really wanting to quit all together but honestly can't just lie around and be sick for a few days. The people that depend on me don't deserve that. How long does it take to feel good? I am all for going cold turkey and going back to abusing narcotics is not ever going to happen. the thought repulses me, idk I can't find anyone who's quit subs and stayed clean. I wanna know there is hope out there!
Sorry that happened to you at an NA meeting. Weaver71 is exactly right; the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop. I've been to meetings when I was still using and was welcomed. I would try a different meeting or even AA. Alcohol has never been my DOC, but I prefer the AA meetings in my area over the NA; there is more long term sobriety, structure, and support.
When I went to an NA meeting a few months ago, noone even spoke to me. The newcomer is supposed to be the most important person there. When I went to my first AA mtg in years, I got up to go to the bathroom and someone followed me out to be sure I was ok and not leaving.
As far as your original question, I was basically raised in the rooms, my mom was in AA and I spent years believing total abstinence was the only way. Now, there is research stating harm reduction is helpful for some people. I think abstinence should be the goal, but you have to start somewhere. I think ARiley put it well in her post.
I know for me, when I was on methadone 15 years ago, I was still using other drugs and not working a program. I was still trying to get high. It was not a helpful tool for me.
I think this is a great topic by the way, but is a very heated one among the recovery community. There is a recovery website which is now shut down called The Fix and I saw a lot of articles weighing in on both sides of the subject. You can still access the site; the old articles are still available to read.
Sorry this is so long; I hope it's helpful.
When I went to an NA meeting a few months ago, noone even spoke to me. The newcomer is supposed to be the most important person there. When I went to my first AA mtg in years, I got up to go to the bathroom and someone followed me out to be sure I was ok and not leaving.
As far as your original question, I was basically raised in the rooms, my mom was in AA and I spent years believing total abstinence was the only way. Now, there is research stating harm reduction is helpful for some people. I think abstinence should be the goal, but you have to start somewhere. I think ARiley put it well in her post.
I know for me, when I was on methadone 15 years ago, I was still using other drugs and not working a program. I was still trying to get high. It was not a helpful tool for me.
I think this is a great topic by the way, but is a very heated one among the recovery community. There is a recovery website which is now shut down called The Fix and I saw a lot of articles weighing in on both sides of the subject. You can still access the site; the old articles are still available to read.
Sorry this is so long; I hope it's helpful.
Subs saved my life. I honestly I would be dead without them. Meetings, counseling, meditation, new friends, good nutrition, all of those things are equally important to subs. I can't say I was clean on subs but was sober. I think doctors prescribe too much for too long, but that isn't always the addicts fault. I do believe one has to work recovery to be sober on subs, as I know people who party on them. Only the one using sub can say If they are sober or not, just like only the addict can diagnose they are an addict. My meetings don't require one to be sober. The only requirement to NA is the DESIRE to stop, it's in the book. Those who judged you need to be reminded of that. Progress over perfection ever reminds us to place principles over personalities. He without sin can cast the first stone. Go to a different meeting is what I say. Sorry that happened, that was self-centered ignorant behavior
I personally think subs are great for short term therapy. Like from 2-10 days at the most. I took them for two days after I quit hydrocodone and had relative success with aleviating a lot of the physical withdrawals. Just read some if the posts on here about coming off of them long term. Good luck to you.
I pretty much agree with everything Ariley said. Sorry they treated you like that at NA
Hey there! I don't have any personal experience with Subs, so I don't know how much my opinion counts since I haven't lived it. My opinion on this is that if you are on Subs a working a program, you aren't clean yet. Yet being the key word. You are still putting a substance in your body that is altering your brain chemistry, but you are learning new and healthy recovery tools, coping skills, and learning how to live without chasing a drug, or participating in addict behavior. For some I know this is a necessary step to break the cycle of drug abuse. I think that Subs should be used as a step ladder, not a crutch. It shouldn't be used for long term, or lifetime therapy, because at that point it is not therapeutic in any way. I can't believe that you were kicked out of NA for working a Sub program with the ultimate goal of being clean. I have heard about this before and really find it sad. Anyways, that is my opinion, whatever it is worth.
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