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What is a good 5 day suboxone taper for opiate withdrawal?
I need to stop using heroin. I have been to detox numerous times within the past 7yrs & have learned from experience that suboxone can be used for a 5 day detox & by day 6 you would have no withdrawals. i just do not remember the amounts of subs i took. I've using about 5 bags of heroin a day for the past few months but have been addicted to opiates for 9yrs now. I have 60 suboxones, so I know I can do this, I'm just not sure if my dosage amounts will work so that I will only experience a very small withdrawal day 6 (because I will be in rehab then & don't want to be withdrawing. I came up with these amounts on my own: (I figured I would split up each days dose so I am taking subs every 12hrs) Day 1: 12mg Day 2: 8mg Day 3: 8mg Day 4: 4mg Day 5: 2mg. I'm hoping this will work..but I'm open to anyone's suggestions or experiences. I also have clonidine, visteral & trazadone for sleep.
But, you know what's way worse than oxy, Suboxine and H? Methadone.. Over 5 weeks in. Yesterday, I could actually WALK to the kitchen without feeling like my head would explode. Spent 4 days in hospital, I had quit eating, drinking, and because I quit using my phone.. Sister took me. RIDICULOUS!! BS. NO wonder I only knew of ONE PERSON to get off the program. And he was on 7 mg/day for over a year... I know this is an old thread. So my message is self-serving, I guess. I can give more info if interested. I was on 150mg for 6 years.. Taprred over 2 years to 34mg. Bounced outta that mad house money drain..
It took 3 months to be free from 24mg/day dose of Suboxine. First 3 to 4 weeks were extremely bad. Mind bending drowning in quicksand feeling. I was working for DOT in state. One of the few real labor intensive jobs. Probably helped.. And alone, bonus. After the 10 hour shift, I would nearly take anything to relieve the pain, mental and physical. I would buy a pint or fifth of Yaeger and guzzle. Sometimes it wasn't enough... Im sure you can guess where I'd go...
I know this is an old post just in case people are still referencing it, yes u can use sub at home for 4-7 days to make coming off a full agonist fairly easy with minimal acute w/d. You will get through the physical withdrawal of your doc without becoming dependent on the sub. I do something on the lines of;
Wait 24 hours since last dose of doc,
4-6mg
4mg
3mg
2mg
1mg
Done
You will be past the acute w/d of your doc and won’t be dependent on the sub. You still may have minimal symptoms like sneezing and sleep issues but overall this works and your sober. However not relapsing is a whole nother story that I still haven’t conquered yet, but I’m trying again now...
Wait 24 hours since last dose of doc,
4-6mg
4mg
3mg
2mg
1mg
Done
You will be past the acute w/d of your doc and won’t be dependent on the sub. You still may have minimal symptoms like sneezing and sleep issues but overall this works and your sober. However not relapsing is a whole nother story that I still haven’t conquered yet, but I’m trying again now...
Couldn't have stated more correctly. Subs are a tool and thats it. The real cure occurs within you. Subs don't heal your brain - such rubbish. A synthetic opiate (Subs) don't heal anything. They fill your brain with another type of opiate that causes you not to go into withdrawals. Subs are easier to taper from hence a great detox tool. Subs do not set the clock back to your pre-use days. You still have to deal with the mental aspects of using opiates. It is hard work.
Hi Kelly,
Today is day 75 since my last dose of Suboxone. I was a long time sub user/abuser. I was prescribed sub after a lengthy pain pill addiction. As EvolverU mentioned...hindsight is enlightening. Had I went straight to kicking the pain pill addiction, I am convinced my symptoms would not have been as severe nor as lengthy. Sub is not a "get out of jail free" card. U will experience wd's eventually, no matter how u decide to get clean. But your decision to get clean is huge. Congrats. Just please b careful w/ the Sub's. Sounds like u have an ample supply which could be detrimental if u are not careful, so please b careful. Keep us informed of your progress. You can do this, I assure you!
Today is day 75 since my last dose of Suboxone. I was a long time sub user/abuser. I was prescribed sub after a lengthy pain pill addiction. As EvolverU mentioned...hindsight is enlightening. Had I went straight to kicking the pain pill addiction, I am convinced my symptoms would not have been as severe nor as lengthy. Sub is not a "get out of jail free" card. U will experience wd's eventually, no matter how u decide to get clean. But your decision to get clean is huge. Congrats. Just please b careful w/ the Sub's. Sounds like u have an ample supply which could be detrimental if u are not careful, so please b careful. Keep us informed of your progress. You can do this, I assure you!
you need help, subs will not make you get clean - you been to rehab how many times? a few subs will not be the miracle you seek. the cure is within you and you alone. when you decide that going thru life as an addict ***** then the changes occur. what changes in your life have you made, friends, activities, decisions? seems like not much. ditch the drug dealers, drug buddies, exercise, eat right. what is causing you to self medicate? work on that and eliminate those issues, what is not working in your life? create a plan to ditch them. Subs help but only when you are sick of being an addict
I completely understand your reservations because of your past experiences but I want to reiterate that you've got a different motivation this time. I only got off 30 yrs of the stuff when I wanted I developed an overarching, personal drive to get clean. I'm here to tell you that both Suboxone and Methadone are a much tougher kick. No two ways about it. If it were me - in hindsight, I'd plan ahead, stock up on things to help w/ symptoms and bite the bullet before I went on to other things. Just because your kick failed to 'take' in the past, doesn't mean it won't 'take' now. Relapse is a learning curve - the nature of the beast. There are plenty of people w/ a fair amount of clean time here. It's incredibly inspiring to go into their posts and journals and to see that they were just where you're at and made it through, despite the discomfort and fear. Wishing you all the strength, patience & clarity you'll need to beat this!
Hey again, thank you both for your input. I completely agree with what you say about going on suboxone for a yr or so/ or using suboxone or methadone as a last resort. I've actually attempted both those options...7yrs ago I tried remaining abstinent from all medications but wasn't successful. Methadone was helpful for a yr or so but I was drinking and abusing Xanax too. I have found the most success with the vivitrol shot, which is a shot of naltrexone administered once a month that blocks opiates & helps with alcohol cravings. But I would skip shots if no one was there to bring me because I didn't want to stop using. And the past 6months or so I was on suboxone for a 2nd time but would skip doses & get high. Then I returned to heroin & went to detox in February with plans to go back on the vivitrol shot. But because they gave me methadone in detox I had to wait two weeks before I could get the shot because any sooner it will put you into precipitated withdrawal that's 10x worse then regular w/d & since it's an opiate blocker NOTHING will make u feel better. & I know this from experience, it was awful! It only lasts for a few days but I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy!! I had to knock myself out with 5mg of klonopin, which was dangerous but my anxiety was awful & I couldn't stop vomiting, but anyways..I couldn't stay clean to get the shot so I went back to detox, got out- relapsed again because of the dumb situations I keep putting myself in & bc I haven't been dealing with my cravings. So this is my last chance & I really want it! Since I can't seem to make it the 14days after detox to get the shot, I wanted to just detox myself & then go to rehab this Friday & then when I leave rehab I will go get the shot immediately, continue IOP, therapy & meetings so I stay busy, am dealing with the psychological issues & will gain a sober support network. Even tho I always think I already know everything about addiction & how to get better from my many visits to rehab, I know that's not true. I keep reading the forums, & there's a lot I've learned from other people & a lot of great advice. And it's really nice to have other people to talk to that understand what you're going thru & shed some light on the situations!!
Hi Kelly, The most important thing you said - and it's HUGE - is that you want to do this for YOU this time. That's key. So is aftercare and mindfulness/vigilance of your triggers. I was a heroin/Methadone user for many years. I would suggest that you try kicking cold first. You'll feel better in a couple of weeks. If this doesn't THEN do the subs or a low dose so Methadone taper which will give you the same tox. screens, accountability and counseling. The heroin is easier to come off of than either of the above mentioned synthetics. So, I'd exhaust other options first and work my way 'up' if need be. This site will carry you through your c/t detox if you use it. It's a powerful ally. I certainly couldn't have done without it! Please, keep posting! We're here.
Hi Kelly...welcome!
Congrats for wanting to get your life back, you CAN do this. You'll get all kinds of help and support here!
My honest opinion, because you've got a pretty long standing habit with many failed attempts at getting clean is to do subs the RIGHT way, through a clinic. There are a lot of advantages to that. Using subs off the street isn't as optimal, because you don't have that added accountability factor to your detox, plus you don't have the support and guidance from a clinic who will help you through the process. Also, it's kind of continuing and reinforcing that addict behavior of basically self medicating.
A GOOD sub clinic will require tox screens frequently, preferrably at every visit. A good sub clinic will calculate a proper dose that isn't TOO high (a big problem...as a LITTLE sub goes a LONG way), and work with you on the adjustment from your drug of choice to subs. A successful sub program should last about 6-12 months. That gives the person enough time to adjust to the sub, and go through the tapering process at a pace slow enough where there can be stabilization periods in between drop down doses. The stabilization periods are very important, and you won't have that with a one month sub taper.
The reason a longer term sub program is so effective versus a fast track detox is because it allows the addict to get some "clean time" and normalcy under their belt. That really helps to build up confidence levels, and gives the person the feeling of what it is like to be living a normal life, without abusing drugs. The most important part of a sub program is the formulation and initiation of an aftercare program. A lot of clinics require therapy (both private and group) that happens right in the clinic, usually once a week at first, then twice a month. The sub doc I used to work for always told people the following, and I thought it was very wise..."the sub is like a crutch, helping you to walk again, but YOU must learn how to walk again, ON YOUR OWN." That's so true. She would tell people that the sub was only ONE very insigificant part of recovery, that pretty much everything else was the important parts, where the REAL changes were made. That's so true. To use sub just to get through w/ds isn't really a viable option IMO, just because how sub works.
You're replacing a full agonist opiate with the partial agonist opiate buprenorphine, and they ARE different. While plenty of people HAVE successfully come off subs, no doubt the general consensus is that the detox/w/d process with sub tends to be a little rougher compared to other opiates. The people I saw who were the most successful in their recovery stayed in the sub program long enough to do some work on themselves, gain confidence, and who took their time tapering. The ones who tried to "fast track" and use subs as a way to get through their opiate w/ds were sadly much less successful, and would often relapse on their doc because the sub w/ds made it difficult for them to stay clean. Basically, they realized that subs were NOT a way around w/ds...there really ISN'T a way to avoid that, to some extent. They also realized that sometimes, the sub w/ds were worse than what they have experienced with other drugs. Again, that's because of the nature of how sub works. Plus, most who failed didn't do any "work" on themselves, with no kind of aftercare. They weren't fixing the problem, they were just trying to get through detox. I've seen people here say all the time, that GETTING clean is the easy part...STAYING clean is the hard part. VERY true.
If you're not going to use sub through a clinic, in a program you're going to be fully invested in, I really wouldn't recommend it. I would recomend just detoxing off the heroin yourself, using the thomas recipe, and IF you can, a doctor who can help you manage the symptoms of w/d (thart's really the best way...when you have a doctor helping guide you).
Very best to you....I hope you can decide on a plan that will work well for you, and one where you will be successful for the long term.
Congrats for wanting to get your life back, you CAN do this. You'll get all kinds of help and support here!
My honest opinion, because you've got a pretty long standing habit with many failed attempts at getting clean is to do subs the RIGHT way, through a clinic. There are a lot of advantages to that. Using subs off the street isn't as optimal, because you don't have that added accountability factor to your detox, plus you don't have the support and guidance from a clinic who will help you through the process. Also, it's kind of continuing and reinforcing that addict behavior of basically self medicating.
A GOOD sub clinic will require tox screens frequently, preferrably at every visit. A good sub clinic will calculate a proper dose that isn't TOO high (a big problem...as a LITTLE sub goes a LONG way), and work with you on the adjustment from your drug of choice to subs. A successful sub program should last about 6-12 months. That gives the person enough time to adjust to the sub, and go through the tapering process at a pace slow enough where there can be stabilization periods in between drop down doses. The stabilization periods are very important, and you won't have that with a one month sub taper.
The reason a longer term sub program is so effective versus a fast track detox is because it allows the addict to get some "clean time" and normalcy under their belt. That really helps to build up confidence levels, and gives the person the feeling of what it is like to be living a normal life, without abusing drugs. The most important part of a sub program is the formulation and initiation of an aftercare program. A lot of clinics require therapy (both private and group) that happens right in the clinic, usually once a week at first, then twice a month. The sub doc I used to work for always told people the following, and I thought it was very wise..."the sub is like a crutch, helping you to walk again, but YOU must learn how to walk again, ON YOUR OWN." That's so true. She would tell people that the sub was only ONE very insigificant part of recovery, that pretty much everything else was the important parts, where the REAL changes were made. That's so true. To use sub just to get through w/ds isn't really a viable option IMO, just because how sub works.
You're replacing a full agonist opiate with the partial agonist opiate buprenorphine, and they ARE different. While plenty of people HAVE successfully come off subs, no doubt the general consensus is that the detox/w/d process with sub tends to be a little rougher compared to other opiates. The people I saw who were the most successful in their recovery stayed in the sub program long enough to do some work on themselves, gain confidence, and who took their time tapering. The ones who tried to "fast track" and use subs as a way to get through their opiate w/ds were sadly much less successful, and would often relapse on their doc because the sub w/ds made it difficult for them to stay clean. Basically, they realized that subs were NOT a way around w/ds...there really ISN'T a way to avoid that, to some extent. They also realized that sometimes, the sub w/ds were worse than what they have experienced with other drugs. Again, that's because of the nature of how sub works. Plus, most who failed didn't do any "work" on themselves, with no kind of aftercare. They weren't fixing the problem, they were just trying to get through detox. I've seen people here say all the time, that GETTING clean is the easy part...STAYING clean is the hard part. VERY true.
If you're not going to use sub through a clinic, in a program you're going to be fully invested in, I really wouldn't recommend it. I would recomend just detoxing off the heroin yourself, using the thomas recipe, and IF you can, a doctor who can help you manage the symptoms of w/d (thart's really the best way...when you have a doctor helping guide you).
Very best to you....I hope you can decide on a plan that will work well for you, and one where you will be successful for the long term.
Great that you cut off your source. I need to do the same with my Dr.
Good luck, you can do this.
Good luck, you can do this.
Thanks everyone for your advice. I've been to two detoxes in the last 2 months & now Intensive outpatient..but each time I've gotten out of detox I used again..maybe out of boredom? So since I just got out of detox a little more then two weeks ago my insurance won't pay for detox again. That's why I was trying to detox myself with a script of suboxones I never filled from two months ago. My insurance will pay for rehab but they don't think I need detox again, but I feel like I do. I was also on methadone for 3 yrs..worst drug ever to get off..I did a rapid drug detox from 105mg to nothing, couldn't walk for a month, no energy at all, but I had a naltrexone implant & it worked well, just couldn't stay away from coke. I was also on the suboxone for the past 6months, didn't really taper off them..just ended up going to detox & still came out feeling like crap. I don't even know where I'm going with all this, lol, I guess I've just tried everything and found that no substitute seems to work well, you still go thru withdrawals no matter what. I guess I'll just follow thru with this taper & hope it works! I'll keep y'all updated. Today's day two & I feel fine, just dealing with cravings :-( but I like this website..it's very informative & appreciate all of your support!
Hi..If you keep checking the post you will find we have alot of expeince x Herion users...Some have used the Subs too...So If you keep checking I will let them know you are here...A Rehab sounds good..I hope that you really, really want it..It is your choice to make the first Step into your Recovery...I came off of many, many yrs of Methedone..I used Subs for 4 days..Took control of the taper myself..NOT Good it only made the w/ds worse..Subs are to be used under a DR supervision..It takes awhile for them to work and taper..OK I wish you well..Just keep checking....
vickie
vickie
This is my first time on here. Been addicted to norcos for abt 5 yrs now. Try and get off every once in a while, make it through day 3 with suboxone, then go back. I'm up to about 30-40 10mg tabs / day. I literally count out 10 -12 pills at a time. This is f-ing crazy. I have to stop this. I can't tell anyone about this either b/c everyone thinks I'm clean now. Physically I'm ok b/c of the suboxone. I've got some w/drawl sx's, sweating non stop, anxiety, restless but given my dose and quitting cold turkey 48 hrs ago I'm pretty lucky. I have to stay away from these damn norcos. They've ruined my life but I keep running bsck. I just deleted my dealers number from my cell today.
Kelly- I know the feeling...I'm sure we all do...when your in the thick of things your mind practically screams at you to just take 'one more' or 'one last time.' My problem was- I never had a last time...I just kept going and going and going...
Subs are tricky and insanely hard to get off of if you use them for a bit so be careful with them...the shorter the better IMO. Everyone is different so I'm sure you'll do what's best for you.
So you're going to rehab?
Subs are tricky and insanely hard to get off of if you use them for a bit so be careful with them...the shorter the better IMO. Everyone is different so I'm sure you'll do what's best for you.
So you're going to rehab?
I think treatment will definitely help. I am proud of you for wanting to do it for yourself!!!!
That is the right attitude to have. There is an aspect to treatment that always helped me. For one they usually give you med that are not narcotics to help you through the w/ds and also it helps with the obsessive part because knowing that I couldn't get my hands on anything allowed me to put my thoughts on something else.
I wish you the best of luck and let us know how you are doing.
That is the right attitude to have. There is an aspect to treatment that always helped me. For one they usually give you med that are not narcotics to help you through the w/ds and also it helps with the obsessive part because knowing that I couldn't get my hands on anything allowed me to put my thoughts on something else.
I wish you the best of luck and let us know how you are doing.
Thanks. & this will not be my first trip to rehab unfortunately, I always went for other people, not for myself. But this time I want it, but I hate the detox because I can't stay sober long enough, when im detoxing my mind tries to tell me to just use one more time just to feel better. i hate it! thats why im hoping the subs help! But I understand that you arent professionals, just hoping someone can tell me from experience what worked for them. I guess I will just give this 5 day detox a try. Today I started day 1 & I feel fine so far, no w/d. I don't have a doctor anymore since the suboxone doctor was getting to expensive & I'm going to go back on the vivitrol shot after rehab to help me stay sober. But any advice or help that you are able to tell me is welcomed! Thanks!
Hi Kelly. We can't give specific taper advice on this forum as we are not medical professionals and we do not know ur current dosages and other meds (the specifics anyway). Do you have a dr or someone who can help you with it?
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