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Magnesium question.....

I keep reading about magnesium.  How does one know if they need to take it? I read that 90% of the population is deficient??? If I need it, what is best to take and can anyone advise me on the dosage?
Thanks!
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458072 tn?1291415186
Actually what I was saying is that my ADD brain does not want to sit still in the tub very long, so it is better for me to soak my feet in it, while at the TV or computer.

It does help me calm down some though, and helps in all aspects.

Hope that helps in some way.  :c)
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Avatar universal
LazyMoose, I believe "loading" and "tolerance" are the same test, just two names for it.  I haven't had it.  From what I've read, it is not easy to do, so I've hesitated to ask for it.

I don't know if a doctor's office could do the test, but I'd like to know.  Here's some information I could find about the test:


I picked this up from the internet:

SUGGESTED PROTOCOL FOR USE OF MAGNESIUM TOLERANCE TEST1
1.Collect baseline 24-h urine for magnesium/creatinine ratio.
2.Infuse 0.2 mEq (2.4 mg) elemental magnesium per kilogram of lean body weight in 50 ml of 5% dextrose over 4h.
3.Collect urine (starting with infusion) for magnesium and creatinine for 24 h.
4.Percentage magnesium retained is calculated by the formula below.
5.Criteria for Mg deficiency >50% retention at 24 h = definite deficiency >25% retention at 24 h = probable deficiency.
6.A fasting 2-h spot or shorter timed-urine may be used.


Diagnosing Magnesium Deficiency
Aside from the signs and symptoms of magnesium deficiency, how can a physician diagnose magnesium deficiency? Unfortunately, laboratory testing is of limited value. Since magnesium is found primarily in the cells, the serum magnesium may be normal in spite of a significant magnesium deficiency. The red blood cell magnesium is a little bit better. Probably the best test, although certainly not full proof, is the magnesium loading test. In this test, the patient collects a 24-hour urine sample and the total magnesium is measured. The patient is then given an injection of a specified amount of magnesium and another 24-hour urine specimen is collected. The magnesium is again measured. If the body retains more than a certain amount of magnesium, then it is concluded that the body is magnesium deficient and is holding on to the magnesium that has been injected. Perhaps the best method of diagnosing magnesium deficiency, however, is the combination of signs and symptoms of magnesium deficiency, which improve with a therapeutic trial of either oral or injected magnesium.
The Importance of Magnesium to Human Nutrition
by Michael Schachter M.D., F.A.C.A.M.

------------------------------

peggy, are you saying that Epsom Salts has helped your ADD?  In what ways?
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458072 tn?1291415186
I use the magnesium epsoms salt version. If I soak in the tub, I use 2 cups of epsoms salt. It I soak my feet, which is much better for my ADD brain, I use 1 cup. And I reheat and use it 2x.

I don't have anyone preparing it for me, so I know its not TLC that is helping me rest afterward.
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798555 tn?1292787551

Have you had either the The Mag loading or tolerance test?

Sounds like a test that takes time at the Drs office? Like blood draw before and after "loading'?

Could you give a simple description of these ?

This is very valuable to the thyroid community.

LM
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Avatar universal
I think Magnesium Taurate and Orotate are better.  The chelates, like you have, are considered good, though.

The loading or tolerance test is considered the best tests out there for Magnesium.  Though, not foolproof.

More information about Magnesium success stories, formulas, dosage, testing, etc. in my journals.  :)
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798555 tn?1292787551
The original post asked how does one know if they need to take Magnesium.

A regular blood drawn magnesium test is suposudly not very accurate. I have learned about 'red blood cell magnesium ' test by quest labs - from the thyroid forum. More accurate, I think it tests what is in your cells, not just whats floating in your blood. I finally found a doctore willing to order this teast and I will compare it with a 'regular' magnesium test performed a few months ago.

On the other hand Calcium is easily tested by blood draw. It is interestingly pointed out by others that, although, calcium and mag work together in a correctly functioning body some people do not need both due to their body chemistry or other med they take. I only know this from a hypothyroid point of view as it and the replacent hormones have a tendancy to displace magnessium in the body.

I have tried various forms of mag for muscle soreness - mag oxide (cheap, does nothing), mag citrate (noticeable for soreness, but sped up digestion to fast)), mag glyninate (soothing and calming effect on muscles and general well being, no ill effects on me). The gycinate does make me tired so I task it before bed, also because it needs to be separated from thyroid meds - maybe from other meds too?

I have not tried the malate, its seems to be more popular than the glycinate, with possibly the same results.
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1348302 tn?1286575703
I just ordered this magnesium supplement.  I have no experience with magnesium and I have never taken it before so I do not know if this is a good brand or dosage or what have you...  It is backordered so I wont get it for a few weeks, but once I get it and start taking it I will try to set up a journal about it and let everyone know if it makes a difference for my muscle spasms, anxiety, insomnia, etc etc.


Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 3 Tablets
Servings Per Container: 60

Amount per Serving


Calories Total 10

Amount per Serving % Daily Value+


Sodium 5 mg <1%

Total Carbohydrate 3 g 1%

% Daily Value


Magnesium (as magnesium malate) 425 mg 106%


Malic Acid (as magnesium malate and malic acid) 2.5 g*

* Daily Value not established.
+ Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet. Your daily values may be higher or lower depending on your calorie needs.

I am also trying to do epsom salt baths for dermal absorption.  I figure if Fentanyl and nicotine can be absorbed dermally, why not try it for magnesium too. :)  Plus I know I should be taking better care of myself, so perhaps taking nightly baths will have additional benefits for me.

With the epsom salt...Does anyone know how much I should be adding to a full bath to get the full benefits?  Like a handfull or more than that?
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Avatar universal
Another problem is that the soil in the US is mineral depleted in many places, so the food grown in it is depleted, too.  Plus, people already eat less vegetables, leafy food, and fruit than their bodies need.

White sugar and white flour is awful.  It's been stripped of most of the healthy minerals and vitamins.  So people are eating "junk food" or "empty food."  There's very little nutritional value.

There are also so many things going on these days that deplete your body of nutrients.  Stressors of all kinds -- fast paced living, over work, loud noises, bright lights, emotional/mental stress from people/music/TV, oxidative stress, etc.
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535822 tn?1443976780
hi Sheila I think it depends where your daughter went ...where I live In California and dalso many states we  do eat a lot of veg and fruits I have them growing in my yard , plums, apricots, oranges and lemons also grapefruit.as a whole I find most  Americans have a healthy diet .Maybe your daughter was a tad unlucky with her hotel ......
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458072 tn?1291415186
As I posted earlier, the dermal route is the best route for epsoms salt. It is really better for you than drinking it. It will not give you diarrhea as it bypasses the stomach and goes straight to the blood system. And taking it this way bypasses the liver as well, giving it a much needed rest.
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Avatar universal
I don't think the sulfate form is better than other forms of magnesium. I just wanted to share that it is possible to get magnesium by soaking in epsom salts. This isn't new information. People used to go to mineral springs and natural sulfur pools for rejuvenation therapy with various illnesses. These were natural sources of magnesium and sulfate.

You said you take extra magnesium because you have an absorption problem. That's the right thing to do. But my son will not take a magnesium supplement (or many other supplements) in any oral form, so I make him get extra magnesium the only other way I can - by soaking in it. If he would eat properly he would get more magnesium that way, but he will not eat fruit or many vegetables, and he has a carbohydrate metabolism problem.

Oral magnesium supplements are great. I take them myself. I have a stubborn, sick child who is sick and tired of taking nasty tasting supplements and has self-limiting food choices, so I do whatever I have to do to get needed nutrients into his body.
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Avatar universal
I don't see why the sulfate form would be any better than any other form.  In fact, digested, it isn't.  The reason the sulfate form is used for injections and topically is because sulphur absorbs through the skin very well whereas magnesium doesn't, so the sulphur is there to carry the magnesium to a specific spot in cases of emergency deficiency or specific muscle cramps.  This isn't to say that if it's working, great with me, or that I'm against epsom salts, just that the best way to get one's magnesium needs is through a balanced diet.  And the magnesium in food isn't a chelated sulfate.  Neither are any of the most recommended supplements.  But sulfate just being one of dozens of possible chelations and the body having to shed any of those chelations in order to utilize the magnesium where it's needed, I still don't see long-term benefit in using it topically vs. eating it the way nature intended.    I have to take excess magnesium because medication I take interferes with its absorption -- this is a common problem.  Otherwise, I wouldn't be supplementing it at all beyond my multi because I eat a lot of green vegetables and whole grains, excellent sources of magnesium, and I avoid dairy, an excess source of calcium.  But to each his or her own; that's what makes baseball, and I always say there's a lot more information than fact out there.  So while I'm the outlyer here, I can't claim to be right or you to be wrong.  It's fun to discuss, though, and you've given me an angle on it I really hadn't confronted before in anyone.  Thanks for the insight.
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Avatar universal
Hi!  The magnesium in epsom salts is already in the sulfate form, so it does, in fact, absorb  into the body through the skin and is ready to go to work, without having to be broken down by digestion. My son won't take magnesium in pill or liquid form, and how much he is able to absorb through digestion is in question, so it's either the foot soaks, or magnesium sulfate transdermal cream (more expensive).
Apparently, there are some people who cannot convert the sulfur in sulfur-containing amino acids (like cysteine or taurine) to the needed sulfate form, due to a blocked sulfation pathway, or other problem with deficiency of the phenol sulfur-transferase enzyme (PST).
Sulfate ions may not be getting absorbed well from the gut, so supplying the nutrients already in a sulfate form gets better results.

But whatever, my little guinea pig is sleeping better.
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Avatar universal
I guess I'm an outlyer here.  I don't think the type of magnesium in epsom salts is well absorbed internally into the blood stream; it's best digested.  On the other hand, soaking your son's feet in anything will probably help him fall asleep.  It's the TLC, better than any remedy out there.  And of course, hot water is relaxing by itself, and epsom salts are relaxing as an external application.  I guess the only way to really know would be to get bloodwork done to see if the application of epsom salts is raising magnesium levels, but transdermal application of minerals isn't considered the optimal way to get them into the bloodstream so they can do everything they're supposed to do; that requires the digestive system to break apart the chelation and take the magnesium to all the places the body needs it, particularly the blood vessels, muscles, and heart.  Anyone want to be a guinea pig here?
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Avatar universal
I've been giving  my son epsom salt foot soaks in the evening for a while now, to help him fall asleep (he has a lot of health problems, anxiety, muscle aches and shakes). It works!
I use half a cup of the salts to about a gallon of water, for at least 20 minutes. Half a cup is a lot, but my son had a few tests that showed magnesium deficiency, so I know that he needs it. You could try a quarter cup to start and see if it helps. You do not have to eat it! Soaking will lower blood pressure.
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Avatar universal
How long do you have to soak in epsom salt to get the magnesium? Mammo do you have to eag the magnesium to lower blood pressure or soak in it?
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Avatar universal
Hi mammo,  if you drink milk or have cream (I do) you have quite enough calcium.  The magnesium is probably depleted quite a lot here.  
If you buy a very good quality magnesium  is will cure any depression that  anyone has, a million times better than anti-depressants.  Magnesium in Epsom Salt form also lowers blood pressure.
Here in England, we do not eat so many fast foods as in U.S.A. - but lots of people on low incomes do alas.    
I always eat lots of fruit and veg. (organic is a must)  don't push chemicals into your body - it cannot deal with them, it was never designed to do so.
When my daughter went to America last year on a trip, she was amazed at how little vegetables were with the meals served in her hotel,  nor was fruit on the breakfast side table.  
Wake up U.S.A,.   (with love and  the best intentions from U.K.)
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458072 tn?1291415186
I still recommend the dermal absorption route. Especially if one is already taking many supplements. Cuts down on the livers job, the stomachs job, and absorption is more complete.
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Avatar universal
It is true that most people are deficient in magnesium. Unfortunately, our society has become so reliant on fast food that we don't get enough magnesium. Magnesium can be obtained through eating fish, fruits, vegetables, grains and nuts. Otherwise you can supplement your diet with a magnesium supplement. Always double check the ingredient list, the supplement should only contain magnesium nothing else added.
Because most people dont get sufficient amounts of magnesium through their diet it is normal for most people to need magnesium. Their are some definite symptoms of magnesium deficiency, however these symptoms can be related to several other causes as well. Muscle fatique, tension, tightness, headaches, low energy, mood swings, can all be caused by magnesium deficiency. The recommended dosage for magnesium is 600mg a day. You want to make sure that you don't take too much magnesium as it can cause diarrhea. You can take magnesium up to the point that your stool is soft. Magnesium is a great all natural muscle relaxer.

I hope this helps!

  
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757137 tn?1347196453
Thank you for being so gracious. The Middle East is normally defined as that area bordered on the west by the Mediterranean and Red seas (including Turkey) and extending to Iran and Afghanistan in the east. Confusion may arise since neither Afghanistan nor Iran are Arab nations. But then neither are Turkey and Israel. The Middle East is a geographic designation. You have inadvertently hit on much of my life's work. At one time I wrote articles on the area for an encyclopedia, and as part of an economic development project investigated Iranian nutrition. All I can say about their diet is that we should be so lucky  
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Avatar universal
Don't mind one-upping me at all.  I need to learn just like anyone else.  Personally, I don't consider Iran as part of the Middle East.  I know we call it that, but it's really just the East and it has always focused East until very recently.  It was the Arab nomadic tribes and the ancient Hebrews and the herders who drank the milk.  Not so many of them left now, to be sure, but when you're riding through deserts you have no choice but to drink the milk of your animals.  As for the tea, I was thinking of India and places influenced by India.  My bad.  (That's where Europeans got it from -- after conquering India).  You should try Tibetan tea -- mix it with yak butter.  Awful stuff.
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757137 tn?1347196453
I am not looking to one-up you, but I lived and worked in the Middle East for almost two decades. They drink their tea without milk (except for a very few Lebanese who try to mimic Europeans). I have never seen a Middle Easterner ever drink a glass of milk - cow, sheep,  goat, or camel. The nomads of Iran, Syria, or any others that I have known of do not drink milk. Maybe some of the Saudis do. I don't know. I don't know what the habits are in North Africa.
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Avatar universal
The above post is largely true, but they do drink milk in the Middle East.  It just isn't cow's milk, and they don't drink a lot, but they do put in in their tea on a regular basis and the nomadic tribes drink camel's milk, though they also use a lot of kefir, a drink somewhat like yoghurt.  Americans didn't drink very much milk either until the Dairy Milk Marketing
Board was created by the federal gov't in the early part of the 20th Century to help the dairy industry.  It worked, to our detriment.  The only people who drink a lot of mild are the Scandinavians and some tribes in India who have the enzyme to digest milk.  But even they eat yoghurt and cheese more than drinking milk.  It's a marketing ploy, folks, that has nothing to do with our health.
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757137 tn?1347196453
The emphasis on milk appears to be a northern European bias. It is not just American. In the Far East there is no cheese or milk. In the Middle East there is some fresh cheese and lots of yoghurt - no milk. Southern Europeans don't like milk, and some can't tolerate it. None of these non-milk peoples are noted for melting bones.
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