Low Magnesium?

[Sunny537]

Hi I have Hashimoto's Thyroiditis and a friend suggested to me to take a magnesium supplement. So I bought a magnesium spray for me to apply to my skin.

I had my magnesium levels checked about a month before I used the spray and these are the results:

Serum magnesium: 0.89 mmol/L (0.70-1.00 mmol/L)

Yet when I used the magnesium spray I had some tingling in my arms soon after using it. The instructions on the bottle say if I experience tingling after applying the spray that meant my levels of magnesium are low! So I don't understand why my magnesium levels are supposedly normal and then I use a spray that tell me I could be deficient in it!

Anyone explain to me why this could be please?

Thanks! :)

[Sunny537]

Oops. I thought you meant the B12 supplement! :) My brand of thyroid meds is Actavis. They taste a bit like paper but it's not overbearing. That quote is very meaningful.

[Red_Star]

Eutroxsig is my thyroid medication name. :)  Not that I can taste it unless I leave it in my mouth for too long. There is only one B12 sublingual spray in Australia that I can find and I had to order it in. My local pharmacy now keep Bioceutical products as a standard line but strangely they don't stock them on the shelves so you have to ask for it (if you know they stock it). Weird. :)

To quote Dr Chandy from the youtube video: BBC Inside Out 30Oct2006 - Vitamin B12 Deficiency (pernicious anemia):

"Immediately like you pour to a plant which didn't receive any water while you were on holiday, you come back and pour some water - next morning it is up. Same way the body reacts so much; just like you drink water if you're thirsty.  That dramatic is the beneficial effect of B12 treatment."

[Sunny537]

The brand of B12 that I take is called Jarrow Formulas. I don't know if you can get it where you are but they are lemon flavoured.

I took the B12 supplement today as well as my Vitamin D3 spray - I felt so much better and my boyfriend commented on me looking brighter! Not a placebo after all! That sort of improvement can happen in a day??? Lol. :)

[Red_Star]

What brand do you take? I take eutroxsig but it doesn't taste very good. I also use Voost effervescence supplements too which are delicious.  This is interesting about the rate of absorption...

Delivery System / Rate of Absorption*
Pill or tablet - 10%
Capsule - 20%
Gel Cap - 30%
Transdermal Patch - 45%
Sublingual Liquid - 50%
Intramuscular Injection - 90%
Intraoral or Sublingual Spray - 95%
Intravenous Injection - 100%

*Source: Physicians’ Desk Reference, NPPDR No. 18:676, 1997

[Sunny537]

:) With my thyroxine I tend to let it dissolve in the glass of water - and even the amount of water I put in isn't very much. When the tablet dissolves enough I kind of swirl it around until it's just a powder and then I knock it back!

I didn't realise B12 would act so quickly but that's probably because it's sublingual and gets to work more quickly I guess. The lozenges I have got are methylcobalmin and are 1000mcg each.

[Red_Star]

Hehehe. You can't buy methylcobalmin sublingual spray in Australia. I know right. O_o  I do have to swallow a few tablets - thyroxine for one. But at least I can do it straight away now. When I had untreated B12 deficiency I found it very difficult to swallow tablets. B12 a placebo?  No way Jose~! :)

[Sunny537]

Lol I thought I was the only person in the world who couldn't swallow tablets. So glad to know I'm not the only one. :)

Good for you in that the pharmacy worker gave you a free zinc taste test. :)

Oddly enough I used a B12 supplement before and within a few minutes felt more energised. I thought it was a placebo effect.

[TheLightSeeker]

Ooops, you can see me? Those darn notebook cameras!!!

Stress, biological or mental and many other factors, impair methylation (among a gazillion other things), so cyanocobalamin (unmethylated form of B12) cannot be utilized by the neurological system ( it is used in inverse proportion to the degree of undermethylation).
So yes, it may be helping you more in areas where methylation is not a factor .
The best way to find out, is by doing a methylocobalamin (very affordable upgrade from cyuanocobalamin) trial.

Buccal delivery, I guess would work better for you in more ways, than anything else, if you go with the zinc lonzenges.
Xylitol sweetening would be a bonus with extra saliva production as well
(to help with dissolving the lonzenges).



Cheers!
Niko

[Red_Star]

Zinc lozengers eh? Sounds easier than supplements. If I can avoid swallowing tablets I will. I didn't know about the zinc taste test until I was telling a guy working in the pharmacy about my symptoms and he gave me a free zinc taste test. Good test. :)

Speaking of B12, I have been having numerous symptoms and really didn't connect it to B12 since I was taking B12 daily although far less than normal as I was running out.  Tonight my mother said my symptoms are likely due to not enough B12. Of course!  I bought B12 and used four good sprays under the tongue and within 10 minutes I felt a difference.  Should be feeling much better in the coming days. I do take cyanocobalamin (Niko shakes head at me lol).  

[Sunny537]

Ok, will do. Thanks. :)

[TheLightSeeker]

10mg zinc seems to be enough at first - you need to watch for a copper/zinc imbalance so it's best to stay with the RDA- however, there will be some loss in the absorption (chewable- goes through digestion).

When you introduce many nutrients in your body at once through multi-vitamin/mineral supplements, you cannot tell what works and what doesn't.
I'm a proponent of one thing at time, taking a wait and see approach.
This way you can tweek and adjust the dosage to your needs, when and if the supplement works, before trying another one.

I would suggest to avoid unmethylated forms of B12 and folate. Stress, certain imbalances and genetics may interfere in certain biochemical processes, leading to potential pooling of the these substances, with negative consequences.
Look for supplements which contain methylocobalamin B12 and methylfolate instead.

[Sunny537]

Ok. :) I've seen some zinc lozenges in my local chemist but I wasn't sure about them (only because I have trouble taking normal tablets/pills/capsules and also I didn't know about what dose to take) so when I next go back there in a couple of days I'll pick some up.

I've picked up some other supplements which contain selenium and some B vitamins. They are both chewable supplements. Zinc is included in one of them and the dose for that is 10mg and the RDA is 100%.

[TheLightSeeker]

Buccal administration ( placing between the cheek and the gums) seems to be the ultimate delivery method  to enter the circulation directly, since sublingual is not really practical because of the large size of the zinc lozenges.

[Sunny537]

If the link between copper deficiency and hypothyroidism is mainly indirect then maybe getting tested for it is not needed at this moment in time. I've no idea if my iron is good but if my ferritin is low then maybe the total iron profile is a good thing to consider instead. Hemoglobin estimation is always good during complete blood counts. Last one is 137 (120-150) unless there is a different way of finding this out. :)

Are the zinc lozenges sublingual?

[TheLightSeeker]

The association of copper deficiency and hypothyroidism is mainly indirect.
There's little research on direct association.
Copper is necessary for iron metabolism & hemoglobin production, both of which are important for proper thyroid function.

As for zinc, personally I take zinc lonzenges, which improved my sense of taste-never bothered with testing,lol!

[Sunny537]

Thanks for getting the extract from the zinc taste test. :) It arrived today but I wasn't in so I will try it once I've collected it. My alternative therapist asked me to try it and she said that most practitioners use it so I thought that maybe since I haven't felt that much better, a zinc taste test is worth doing and redoing once the levels have sorted themselves out. And if my doctor is unwilling to do the blood test for zinc.

I have moved doctor practices now and when I go to my first appointment with my new doctor (which might be soon as I believe the problems I've been having could be due to the levothyroxine) I will insist on needing a medical professional to work with me. The number of times I've doctor hopped is getting frustrating now and the practice I'm now with will be the last one I use for anything autoimmune related or thyroid related. There was one doctor at my first practice who was more accepting of alternative therapies, but she has now left. :( If they fail to work with me,  as they're the medical practitioners, then I'll be either going private (which I may not get any joy from), alternative therapies or self-treating. :)

[Red_Star]

Well I should of said in my case untreated hypothyroidism also causes adrenal fatigue but not as severe. Okay well not too bad for a screening test then. :)

[Red_Star]

I've had insulin resistance for decades which is why I was low in magnesium and zinc for decades.  My symptoms of zinc deficiency included poor sense of taste and smell, poor appetite, very fussy eater, night blindness, white spots on nails.  I also healed very slowly but that was notably due to vitamin B12 malabsorption although low zinc wasn't helping matters.

Since correcting my zinc deficiency I can now eat cooked carrots that are burnt on the edges - fussy much? lol - but due to sensory memory I'm not sure how many other foods I'll be able to add to my list of likes. My result below was #3 and the taste was very mild like a powdery taste.

Some excerpts about zinc deficiency from the article "The Zinc Taste Test" by Ronald L. Myers, CNC.

"In 1984 information appeared in the Lancet (Aug 11, p. 350; Nov 17, p. 1162) regarding the use of the Zinc Taste Test (ZTT) in patients with anorexia and depression.  This test was developed and used because plasma and serum zinc levels were considered unreliable measures of zinc status."

"Patient should refrain from eating, drinking or smoking for at least a half-hour.  Have the patient place 1 to 2 tsp. of Aqueous Zinc in their mouth swirling it for 10 seconds and then swallow it or spit it out.  After 30 seconds the patient is asked to describe the taste and their response should be graded based on the following parameters:

1) Optimal zinc levels—An immediate, unpleasant, obviously adverse taste, at which the patient normally grimaces.

2) Adequate Zinc Levels—A definite but not strongly unpleasant taste is noted immediately and tends to intensify with time.

3) Quite Zinc Deficient—No taste noted initially, but develops in 10-15 seconds.

4) Very Zinc Deficient—Tasteless or “tastes like water”"

[Sunny537]

Thanks for suggesting the Huperzine A. I'll see if Amazon stock this. :)

I saw a complementary therapist a few months ago and she asked me to do a zinc taste test. She put some zinc solution in tap water, mixed it and asked me to hold it in my mouth for 30 seconds to see if I could taste any zinc. I just tasted plain water and when I told her she said I was low in zinc. I wondered if it was possible to confirm with a blood test or if a zinc taste test is evidence enough then I'll forgo the blood test for zinc.

I spoke to some fellow thyroid patients on a forum - which manages the thyroid illnesses alternatively than with just the thyroxine - and they suggested I get my copper levels checked because they sent me a draft letter to write to my doctor, saying that many thyroid patients have copper deficiency and that it correlates with lipid levels and cardiovascular risk.

[TheLightSeeker]

Look into Huperzine A, a herbal supplement with no known side effects, when taken as recommended.

Yes thyroid could be the main culprit, but again everything is interlinked.

What makes you suspect these deficiencies?

[Sunny537]

Hi there, thanks for recommending the Smart Nutrition when you searched. A few of the people at my local thyroid support group use one called Genova Diagnostics which post the results to me once I've paid for the test and sent off the samples.

I've changed doctors because I found that my current one wasn't keen on doing tests for copper and zinc, both of which I believe I'm deficient in but never been checked for them.

Off subject, but I can write this as a new thread if necessary, are bladder problems likely with  thyroid/autoimmune/adrenal issues? My urologist thinks communication between my bladder and brain are disrupted somewhere, so possibly neurological (just a thought) and I have no thirst instinct. They prescribed me an anticholinergic but this is for Parkinson's and the side effects concern me, mostly the ones mentioning dry mouth!

[TheLightSeeker]

Yikes!   That is high, but it does not correlate with severity and prognosis.

For actual adrenal testing in UK, I did a fast search and Smart Nutrition,
has pertinent information, but, I'm suggesting it, only for information purposes,
as a reference , since I have no experience with them what-so-ever.

Please do your own research, before you decide for any adrenal testing , to ensure accuracy, reasonable price and professionalism, should you decide to go ahead with it.

To my opinion saliva testing is better, even if NHS may not cover this.
I'm not familiar with insurance codes  in the UK

Keep me posted.

Niko

[Sunny537]

Ah, ok. I see. Thanks for explaining. :)

Here are my answers:

Do you experience fatigue? 3


Do you have allergies? 0


Do you have asthma? 0


Do you have recurrent infections? 3


Are you under severe emotional stress? 3


Do you suffer from chronic pain or physical stress? 3


Do you have low blood pressure? 0


Do you have a low pulse rate (<70/min with no exercise)? 2


Do you feel faint when you rise quickly? 2


Do you experience depressed moods? 2


Do you experience joint pain? 2


Do you have muscle pain? 2


Do you have low libido? 2


Do you have hair loss? 2


Do you have anxiety attacks? 2


TOTAL SCORE _28_

[TheLightSeeker]

The score for each yes answer is given.
Unfortunately I did not keep my notes at the time-, I saved this a few years ago- in order to get any kind of feedback from the originator in relation to the weighing of each answer.
So for anything that is present once in a "blue moon", I would say it's a no, which has naturally, a score of zero.
Something occurring on a frequent basis, it would be a yes, which means you put the corresponding score as it shows above next to the question.

I hope it helps.
Niko