Aa
Is there anyone else with a TPO AB higher than mine?
T3 and T4 are always normal. Thyroglobulin AB tested on 11/19 = 151. TPO AB: On 2/17 = 5,237. On 8/17 = 6,083. On 11/19 = 11,984. I am going bald. Year 4 of plantar fasciitis. Weight gain. Starting to have very little energy. No treatments offered to me.
I'm sorry you can't get any doctors to discuss the high TPOab with you but I can put your mind at ease about a couple of things.
First of all, it's true that the antibodies are causing inflammation, but they will not cause your body to spontaneously combust - ever... I've known people to have even higher counts than yours and although they may not feel well, nothing horrible happens and when they continue trying, they eventually get the treatment they need.
Secondly, these antibodies do NOT cause Rheumatoid Arthritis or any other autoimmune conditions. The TPO enzyme is used only to make thyroid hormones and that's the only thing the antibodies attack. It is true that thyroid conditions can cause heart problems of various kinds, but it's not the antibodies that causes heart problems; it's actual thyroid hormone being either too low or too high. Although your levels are on the low end of the ranges and you would benefit from treatment, they aren't at a critical level at this point. If you develop a true heart condition now, it's unlikely to be thyroid related.
As far as bringing your TPOab under control, once they start attacking your thyroid, they will continue to attack it until your thyroid is completely destroyed, meaning it does nothing and you will be dependent on replacement thyroid hormones, like many of us are. There are those who say that changing the diet to eliminate things like gluten, dairy, soy, sugar, etc will decrease antibody counts. Avoiding goitrogens may be helpful. You can google for a full list of foods that may inhibit production/absorption of thyroid hormones. Goitrogens, basically, include cruciferous vegetables, such as cabbage, kale, broccoli, cauliflower, etc and some fruits. Cooking the foods destroys the goitrogenic properties.
Selenium has also been shown to lower antibody counts. Replacement thyroid medication may help reduce them as well, but as noted previously, many doctors refuse to start patients on medication until thyroid levels are completely out of reference ranges.
You can try the elimination diet and/or selenium. 200 mcg/day is the standard dosage, which has been shown to be safe. Selenium can be toxic if levels become too high, so it's not a matter of "if some is good, more is better". Basically, the antibodies will destroy your thyroid and when it's all said and done, it will be the resulting low thyroid hormone levels that are making you feel the worst.
Many, whose labs actually fall within the reference ranges, have better luck getting early treatment from Naturopathic doctors than from conventional doctors because conventional doctors tend to concentrate too much on lab results and discount symptoms. Naturopathic doctors are willing to look at the whole body and realize that without proper treatment we can't possibly get well. The problem with naturopathic doctors is that many of them don't take insurance so paying out of pocket can get quite expensive, especially getting started. Of course, once established, on medication and stabilized, it's not necessary to visit the doctor more than a couple of times/year if one is otherwise healthy.
First of all, it's true that the antibodies are causing inflammation, but they will not cause your body to spontaneously combust - ever... I've known people to have even higher counts than yours and although they may not feel well, nothing horrible happens and when they continue trying, they eventually get the treatment they need.
Secondly, these antibodies do NOT cause Rheumatoid Arthritis or any other autoimmune conditions. The TPO enzyme is used only to make thyroid hormones and that's the only thing the antibodies attack. It is true that thyroid conditions can cause heart problems of various kinds, but it's not the antibodies that causes heart problems; it's actual thyroid hormone being either too low or too high. Although your levels are on the low end of the ranges and you would benefit from treatment, they aren't at a critical level at this point. If you develop a true heart condition now, it's unlikely to be thyroid related.
As far as bringing your TPOab under control, once they start attacking your thyroid, they will continue to attack it until your thyroid is completely destroyed, meaning it does nothing and you will be dependent on replacement thyroid hormones, like many of us are. There are those who say that changing the diet to eliminate things like gluten, dairy, soy, sugar, etc will decrease antibody counts. Avoiding goitrogens may be helpful. You can google for a full list of foods that may inhibit production/absorption of thyroid hormones. Goitrogens, basically, include cruciferous vegetables, such as cabbage, kale, broccoli, cauliflower, etc and some fruits. Cooking the foods destroys the goitrogenic properties.
Selenium has also been shown to lower antibody counts. Replacement thyroid medication may help reduce them as well, but as noted previously, many doctors refuse to start patients on medication until thyroid levels are completely out of reference ranges.
You can try the elimination diet and/or selenium. 200 mcg/day is the standard dosage, which has been shown to be safe. Selenium can be toxic if levels become too high, so it's not a matter of "if some is good, more is better". Basically, the antibodies will destroy your thyroid and when it's all said and done, it will be the resulting low thyroid hormone levels that are making you feel the worst.
Many, whose labs actually fall within the reference ranges, have better luck getting early treatment from Naturopathic doctors than from conventional doctors because conventional doctors tend to concentrate too much on lab results and discount symptoms. Naturopathic doctors are willing to look at the whole body and realize that without proper treatment we can't possibly get well. The problem with naturopathic doctors is that many of them don't take insurance so paying out of pocket can get quite expensive, especially getting started. Of course, once established, on medication and stabilized, it's not necessary to visit the doctor more than a couple of times/year if one is otherwise healthy.
4 Comments
Thank you so much. I've not been told any of this because doctors are incredibly dismissive. Once when I questioned whether other organs would be attacked once the thyroid was gone …. (after a big sigh) "As physicians we sometimes do our patients a dis-service by giving too much information". So I stopped asking. Thank you, again.
Any physician who is so arrogant that they think they're doing a disservice to patients by answering questions doesn't deserve to have patients. We deserve all the information we can understand about any disease or condition we have and it's up to them to provide it to us. If they refuse to do that, they should expect us to go looking elsewhere for information. You should never stop asking. If one doctor won't provide the information you seek, try a different doctor and another, then another and another, until you find one who will treat you with respect.
To answer your question about whether thyroid antibodies will attack other organs once the thyroid has been destroyed, the answer is no - those antibodies will go into remission. It's important to note, though that once a person has one autoimmune condition, the chances of getting another (or more) are greater. It's also important to note that autoimmunes tend to run in families, though not every member of the same family will get the same autoimmune condition - for instance, I have Hashimoto's and Pernicious Anemia, my son has Type I Diabetes and my daughter has Lupus - all are autoimmune. (Type II Diabetes is not autoimmune)
Once the thyroid is destroyed, it will no longer produce the hormones you need and you will have to have replacement hormones because nearly every cell in your body relies on thyroid hormones. They control your heart rate, metabolism, body temperature and other processes. If thyroid hormones get too low, eventually, you will go into what is called myxedema coma, which is a life-threatening condition, which requires emergency treatment.
Right now, you're mostly scared and confused because you have high antibodies and a few symptoms. Long before you get to myxedema coma, you will have SO many symptoms and they'll be so horrible you'll demand that your doctor help you. When I was diagnosed, I was a long way from myxedema coma, but my actual thyroid hormone levels were below the reference ranges and my TSH level was very high. I was horribly ill and if my doctor would have refused to give me the medication I needed, I would not have stopped until I found someone who would have given it to me. As it was, that doctor ended up not being very good for me so I kicked him to the curb not too long after diagnosis anyway and haven't looked back. After 12 yrs, I still have trouble keeping my levels up though and am waiting for an appointment with a new endo at the end of April.
Keep looking for that right doctor, no matter how many you have to go through to find her/him. If they won't talk to you with respect and answer your questions, don't waste time with them...
To answer your question about whether thyroid antibodies will attack other organs once the thyroid has been destroyed, the answer is no - those antibodies will go into remission. It's important to note, though that once a person has one autoimmune condition, the chances of getting another (or more) are greater. It's also important to note that autoimmunes tend to run in families, though not every member of the same family will get the same autoimmune condition - for instance, I have Hashimoto's and Pernicious Anemia, my son has Type I Diabetes and my daughter has Lupus - all are autoimmune. (Type II Diabetes is not autoimmune)
Once the thyroid is destroyed, it will no longer produce the hormones you need and you will have to have replacement hormones because nearly every cell in your body relies on thyroid hormones. They control your heart rate, metabolism, body temperature and other processes. If thyroid hormones get too low, eventually, you will go into what is called myxedema coma, which is a life-threatening condition, which requires emergency treatment.
Right now, you're mostly scared and confused because you have high antibodies and a few symptoms. Long before you get to myxedema coma, you will have SO many symptoms and they'll be so horrible you'll demand that your doctor help you. When I was diagnosed, I was a long way from myxedema coma, but my actual thyroid hormone levels were below the reference ranges and my TSH level was very high. I was horribly ill and if my doctor would have refused to give me the medication I needed, I would not have stopped until I found someone who would have given it to me. As it was, that doctor ended up not being very good for me so I kicked him to the curb not too long after diagnosis anyway and haven't looked back. After 12 yrs, I still have trouble keeping my levels up though and am waiting for an appointment with a new endo at the end of April.
Keep looking for that right doctor, no matter how many you have to go through to find her/him. If they won't talk to you with respect and answer your questions, don't waste time with them...
ok then. you made me cry. I have felt like a moron for such a long time. In these few messages I have learned more than all the hours and hours I have spent trying to research on my own. Please keep helping others. It makes a difference.
Oh my - I certainly didn't mean to make you cry unless it's happy tears. :-) There's no need to feel like a moron; it's the fault of your doctors for not explaining things and having meaningful conversations with you about these things. It's their job to make sure you understand what's happening in your body.
There are a lot of things to learn about the thyroid that I haven't gone into here and of course, the thyroid affects the whole body. When the thyroid doesn't work well, the adrenals kick in and try to take up the slack so over a period of time there can be issues with the adrenals glands as well. Many of us also have digestive issues and other problems that arise because of thyroid malfunction, too, so the sooner you find a doctor that will give you the Hashimoto's diagnosis and start you on replacement thyroid hormones or at least give you a direction in which to go, the better off you'll be.
In addition, I'm here and you can find me either here or by sending me a private message or visiting the Thyroid Disorders community. We can give a lot of information that will help you navigate thyroid situations.
Just, whatever you do - don't give up...
There are a lot of things to learn about the thyroid that I haven't gone into here and of course, the thyroid affects the whole body. When the thyroid doesn't work well, the adrenals kick in and try to take up the slack so over a period of time there can be issues with the adrenals glands as well. Many of us also have digestive issues and other problems that arise because of thyroid malfunction, too, so the sooner you find a doctor that will give you the Hashimoto's diagnosis and start you on replacement thyroid hormones or at least give you a direction in which to go, the better off you'll be.
In addition, I'm here and you can find me either here or by sending me a private message or visiting the Thyroid Disorders community. We can give a lot of information that will help you navigate thyroid situations.
Just, whatever you do - don't give up...
Elevated TPOab and TGab are indicative of Hashimoto's Thyroiditis as are your symptoms.
What are the actual values of your T4 and T3 and are they Free T4 and Free T3 or are they Total T4 and Total T3? If the lab report only says T4 and T3, they are Total, which aren't very good good indicators because they show, both bound and unbound (Free) values.
If you can post the actual results along with their corresponding reference ranges, that would be most helpful as "normal" on a lab report isn't necessarily normal for you. Also, if you've vitamins B-12, D and Ferritin tested, please post those values and ranges as well, since Vitamin B-12 and D are necessary for the proper metabolism of thyroid hormones. Ferritin is the storage hormone for iron and iron is necessary for conversion of Free T4 to Free T3.
What are the actual values of your T4 and T3 and are they Free T4 and Free T3 or are they Total T4 and Total T3? If the lab report only says T4 and T3, they are Total, which aren't very good good indicators because they show, both bound and unbound (Free) values.
If you can post the actual results along with their corresponding reference ranges, that would be most helpful as "normal" on a lab report isn't necessarily normal for you. Also, if you've vitamins B-12, D and Ferritin tested, please post those values and ranges as well, since Vitamin B-12 and D are necessary for the proper metabolism of thyroid hormones. Ferritin is the storage hormone for iron and iron is necessary for conversion of Free T4 to Free T3.
4 Comments
Thank you so much for responding. These are the more complete results:
• T3 Free is Normal (Range 2.18 – 3.98) On 11/2019 = 2.61
• T4 Free is Normal (Range 0.76 – 1.450. On 11/2019 = 0.90
• TPO Ab HIGH (Range 0.0 – 60) On 2/2017 = 5,237.7; On 8/20/17 = 6,083; On 11/2019 = 11,983.9
• Thyroglobulin AB is High: (Range 0 – 60) On 11/2019 = 151
• WBC is low: (Range 4.5 – 11) On 2/17 = 4.3; On 8/2017 = 3.9; On 2/2019 = 4.0; On 9/2019 = 4.3; On 11/2019 = 3.8
• Cholesterol is High on 11/2019 at 222
• Vitamin D is Low (Range 30 – 100) On 11/2019 = 28.70
• Calcium is Normal (Range 8.5 – 10.1) On 11/2019 = 9.0
New endocrinologist refused to discuss or acknowledge TPO Ab or Thyroglobulin. Wants me to take calcium and Vitamin D, smile more, take meditation and yoga. Will see me in one year. ( ?? )
• T3 Free is Normal (Range 2.18 – 3.98) On 11/2019 = 2.61
• T4 Free is Normal (Range 0.76 – 1.450. On 11/2019 = 0.90
• TPO Ab HIGH (Range 0.0 – 60) On 2/2017 = 5,237.7; On 8/20/17 = 6,083; On 11/2019 = 11,983.9
• Thyroglobulin AB is High: (Range 0 – 60) On 11/2019 = 151
• WBC is low: (Range 4.5 – 11) On 2/17 = 4.3; On 8/2017 = 3.9; On 2/2019 = 4.0; On 9/2019 = 4.3; On 11/2019 = 3.8
• Cholesterol is High on 11/2019 at 222
• Vitamin D is Low (Range 30 – 100) On 11/2019 = 28.70
• Calcium is Normal (Range 8.5 – 10.1) On 11/2019 = 9.0
New endocrinologist refused to discuss or acknowledge TPO Ab or Thyroglobulin. Wants me to take calcium and Vitamin D, smile more, take meditation and yoga. Will see me in one year. ( ?? )
Sorry. Forgot a couple. Vitamin D 25 OH Low (Range 30.00 - 100.00) On 11/2019 = 28.70. Chloride High (Range 98 - 107. On 11/2019 = 110. Anion Gap Low (Range 5 - 16. On 11/2019 = 4. Vitamin B12 Norman (Range 193 - 986) On 11/2019 = 510. Think that's it.
Wow - no wonder you don't feel well. I'm really sorry your doctor isn't being helpful. When my doctors made suggestions as unhelpful as those, I was tempted to meditate my foot where the sun doesn't shine, if you get my drift... :-)
So let's start with basics... high cholesterol is on of the hundreds of symptoms of hypothyroidism - yes, that's what you have as a result of Hashimoto's, which is what you have, whether your doctor is willing to discuss that with you or not. The symptoms you mentioned in your original post - weight gain, hair loss, lack of energy, even the plantar fasciitis are all additional symptoms of Hashimoto's and/or hypothyroidism.
Low energy is also a classic symptom of lower Vitamin B-12... yes, yours is approximately mid range, but most of us have to keep levels at/near the upper end of the range in order to keep symptoms of deficiency at bay. Also, as mentioned, Vitamin B-12 and D are necessary for the proper metabolism of thyroid hormones.
Now, for the actual thyroid hormones - most of us need Free T4 to be approximately mid range; yours is only at 20% of its range. In addition, it's recommended that Free T3 be in the upper half to upper third of its range in order for us to feel our best. Some of us even need it to be higher than that. Your Free T3 is only at 27% of its range. So as you can see, your actual thyroid hormone levels are a long way from the recommended levels.
I don't see a TSH listed. Did your doctor order one? TSH is a pituitary hormone. It stands for Thyroid Stimulating Hormone and is intended to stimulate the thyroid to produce more hormones. Typically, as thyroid hormone levels decline, TSH rises at the pituitary produces more TSH in an effort to stimulate the thyroid further. Many doctors "only" test TSH, and although it's only an indicator of a thyroid problem, it's rare to find a doctor who doesn't test it at all.
It's all a very complicated process but to simplify it a bit, in a perfect world, your thyroid would be producing, both T4 and T3 hormones and as the level it produces gets smaller, your pituitary gland would produce TSH to stimulate the thyroid and it would happily produce more T4 and T3 in response. Of the total T4 produced, most is bound by a protein and can't be used. The unbound portion is called "Free T4". Free T4 isn't used directly by individual cells; it must be converted to T3. As with T4, most of the T3 in our body is bound by protein and can't be used. Again, the unbound portion is the "Free T3" and that's the portion that's used by nearly every cell in our body. Much of the Free T4 is converted to T3 in the liver, but it's also converted by other organs, including the skin, brain, etc. Selenium and iron are both necessary for this conversion.
When we have Hashimoto's, the antibodies attack the thyroid and gradually kill off healthy cells so it can no longer produce adequate amounts of hormones. This attack will continue until the thyroid no longer produces anything. Many doctors refuse to treat patients until they reach this point... in other words, as long as hormone levels remain within the so-called normal ranges, they refuse to start the patient on replacement hormone medication, regardless of the symptoms they may have. These doctors do a grave disservice to their patients because they often spend many years feeling miserable when it's not necessary.
Did you have an ultrasound to determine whether you have nodules on your thyroid?
I hope the very least this doctor did was recommend that you take Vitamin D to bring up those levels and maybe change your diet to try to bring down your cholesterol levels. Fish oil often helps with that. There are things you can do to help stop the weight gain and taking a B-12 supplement might help with low energy, but my first "real" recommendation is to find a different doctor. I know you said this is a "new" endocrinologist... IMO, you will be wasting your time if you hang with him for a year because he's going to keep you ill. Many members end up going through several doctors before they finally find one that will give the treatment they need.
So let's start with basics... high cholesterol is on of the hundreds of symptoms of hypothyroidism - yes, that's what you have as a result of Hashimoto's, which is what you have, whether your doctor is willing to discuss that with you or not. The symptoms you mentioned in your original post - weight gain, hair loss, lack of energy, even the plantar fasciitis are all additional symptoms of Hashimoto's and/or hypothyroidism.
Low energy is also a classic symptom of lower Vitamin B-12... yes, yours is approximately mid range, but most of us have to keep levels at/near the upper end of the range in order to keep symptoms of deficiency at bay. Also, as mentioned, Vitamin B-12 and D are necessary for the proper metabolism of thyroid hormones.
Now, for the actual thyroid hormones - most of us need Free T4 to be approximately mid range; yours is only at 20% of its range. In addition, it's recommended that Free T3 be in the upper half to upper third of its range in order for us to feel our best. Some of us even need it to be higher than that. Your Free T3 is only at 27% of its range. So as you can see, your actual thyroid hormone levels are a long way from the recommended levels.
I don't see a TSH listed. Did your doctor order one? TSH is a pituitary hormone. It stands for Thyroid Stimulating Hormone and is intended to stimulate the thyroid to produce more hormones. Typically, as thyroid hormone levels decline, TSH rises at the pituitary produces more TSH in an effort to stimulate the thyroid further. Many doctors "only" test TSH, and although it's only an indicator of a thyroid problem, it's rare to find a doctor who doesn't test it at all.
It's all a very complicated process but to simplify it a bit, in a perfect world, your thyroid would be producing, both T4 and T3 hormones and as the level it produces gets smaller, your pituitary gland would produce TSH to stimulate the thyroid and it would happily produce more T4 and T3 in response. Of the total T4 produced, most is bound by a protein and can't be used. The unbound portion is called "Free T4". Free T4 isn't used directly by individual cells; it must be converted to T3. As with T4, most of the T3 in our body is bound by protein and can't be used. Again, the unbound portion is the "Free T3" and that's the portion that's used by nearly every cell in our body. Much of the Free T4 is converted to T3 in the liver, but it's also converted by other organs, including the skin, brain, etc. Selenium and iron are both necessary for this conversion.
When we have Hashimoto's, the antibodies attack the thyroid and gradually kill off healthy cells so it can no longer produce adequate amounts of hormones. This attack will continue until the thyroid no longer produces anything. Many doctors refuse to treat patients until they reach this point... in other words, as long as hormone levels remain within the so-called normal ranges, they refuse to start the patient on replacement hormone medication, regardless of the symptoms they may have. These doctors do a grave disservice to their patients because they often spend many years feeling miserable when it's not necessary.
Did you have an ultrasound to determine whether you have nodules on your thyroid?
I hope the very least this doctor did was recommend that you take Vitamin D to bring up those levels and maybe change your diet to try to bring down your cholesterol levels. Fish oil often helps with that. There are things you can do to help stop the weight gain and taking a B-12 supplement might help with low energy, but my first "real" recommendation is to find a different doctor. I know you said this is a "new" endocrinologist... IMO, you will be wasting your time if you hang with him for a year because he's going to keep you ill. Many members end up going through several doctors before they finally find one that will give the treatment they need.
Thank you, Barbara. You seem to have so much knowledge on this subject. Honestly - it helps to have someone to talk to. No. I do not see anywhere that I've been tested for TSH. What I can not get an answer to … is … this crazy high TPO Ab. If this is "inflammation", and at that extreme high (range 0 - 60 and mine is at about 12,000!!) at what point does my body spontaneously combust? It is out of control going up and up. That concerns me so much. This can cause rheumatoid arthritis, enlarged heart, heart disease, other autoimmune diseases and no doctor will allow a discussion. I have been demeaned, dismissed, and literally yelled at. I am angry, frustrated, and confused. Thank you so much for your guidance. I know you're right. Finding a good doctor seems impossible. Not sure why this is so difficult. I want my TPO Ab brought under control.
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