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4454327 tn?1405203128

Loss of bladder function/Sciatic issues

Hi. In good health, 45 year old female, non menopausal. Sciatic issues on and off on my right side for last 2 decades. Never had imaging done as I only went to doctor once about it as I thought nothing could be done, ie:just live with it and do the best I can.

Fast forward to now where I have the chronic pain, got new mattress, I try to be careful when i bend down. I try to be proactive as to not aggravate the nerve.

I set up and appt for June 30th for an Orthopedist. To get some imaging done and to maybe get some answers and feedback.

However, a few days ago I lost control of my bladder.  I was on phone and realized I was peeing my pants. It was surreal. I had urinated a few times that morning so it wasn't a case of being full.

It hasn't happened since. I realize that as woman get older, we might have accidents, but I never had natural childbirth, I had a C section. And this wasn't a dribble, it was a full flow.

Should I be concerned? I have read of bladder dysfunction and spinal issues. Since it only happened once, should I just relax and wait to see doctor on the 30th?  Thanks for any help offered.

20 Responses
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7721494 tn?1431627964
They'd need to take a history, make an examination, and look at your MIR. They may require other tests.

I mention the drugs because some clinics refuse to treat with drugs, and only want to push high-priced shots. These are called "shot-jocks" and you do not belong in a place like that, where their concern is on their bottom line, not your health.

Whether or not you need opioid pain medication is a choice between you and your doctor.

A good interventional physician can tell you, after making his evaluation, what can be done short of surgery.

Best wishes.
Helpful - 0
4454327 tn?1405203128
Is there a non surgical way to take care of that nerve if immediate action needs to be taken?

I believe that this Spine place offers those injections.  Not sure about pain meds. Not even sure how to go about asking them to be honest. I mean, I'm in pain, but not a huge advocate for myself, unfortunately.  I suppose they would  just need to look at MRI.  
Helpful - 0
7721494 tn?1431627964
The EMG will test for existing nerve damage. It will determine the immediacy of decompressing that L5 nerve root.

We never did any nerve conduction tests on my patients so I wouldn't know what numbers are valid. Of course, when they could no longer walk, our treatment plans were a little severe. (which is why you wouldn't want me for your doctor.)

Remember to make notes about your questions, and don't let that doc out of the room until your questions are answered.

Make sure the pain center isn't simply a shot factory -- they should also be using medical means to treat pain, suggesting other modalitites like PT, etc. Ask about their attitudes on prescribing opioid pain medications if necessary. If they say "oh, we don't believe in that" this is not the place for you.

Helpful - 0
4454327 tn?1405203128
Wow. Wrestling an expectant sheep? You get the party hat and pom poms for patience and strength on that one...One can surmise that handling any expectant mammal in any capacity is not an easy feat! :-)

Ok, Ive got it. DDD, no surgery until absolutely necessary. You are well educated obviously and it has been a gift to receive guidance and suggestions from you regarding my situation.

I do like my doctor, however, I believe the last visit, he was in office about 6 minutes, literally. Didnt explain anything, just wanted to set up EMG for left foot.  

There is an Interventional Spine Office near me that treats two of my friends. They do the injections you spoke about. All board certified.  I will await the EMG results and go on from there. Although, I'm curious as to how the foot numbness will be eradicated if it is indeed caused by the impingement of L5? (I'm only concerned about losing total feeling in foot and not being able to walk.).

You have been an angel, and apparently to the animal world as well. I am deeply grateful for your help. I will post the EMG results if necessary and ask for feedback at that point. Take care :-)
Helpful - 0
7721494 tn?1431627964
No, it is probably not congenital.

You have spine disease, and it is complex. Before you panic, none of these findings are life threatening. Don't run to the hospital. :#)

You have a condition called degenerative disc disease or DDD, DDD is common with age -- we all get it, although some of us get it sooner than others (My DDD started in my 20s. They used to qualify my diagnosis with the statement "remarkably advanced for his age." They don't say that anymore.

Many of these discs are dessicated or dried out -- this is DDD. The discs are not doing their job in cushioning your spine, and I'm sure that you feel it.

A couple of the discs bulge over onto the nerve roots that exit your spinal cord on each side, a condition called foraminal stenosis, causing a pain symptom that radiates down your leg. This is called radiculopathy. And when radiculopathy results from foraminal stenosis of L4-S1, they call it sciatica.

You also have a facet arthrosis or spondylosis, which is a arthritic disease of the back joints. The radiologist suspects spondylosis in the first sacral joint, also, but is not sure.

Finally, there's a weakness in the long ligament that supports the spine (the yellow ligament or ligamentum flavum), and may be putting pressure on your spinal cord.

One of the problems with many kinds of spine surgury is that it damages the ligamentum flavum, causing further instability and pain.

As I told you, the nerves that supply the bladder come out around L2, and since there's no sign of "foramenal stenosis" at L2, your doc doesn;t believe your bladder symptoms are from impingement, however, the hypertrophy of the yellow ligament may be causing the bladder dysfunction. This is only my theory -- not medical fact -- as there's no scientific evidence, but only anecdotal reports that lumbar spinal stenosis causes bladder complications. There's so much we don't know about pain and spine disease -- it's a shame. If you happen to be a very rich heiress, please leave your fortune to pain research, OK?

So, you've got a few issues here. Whenever we talk about spine problems, we have to worry about two major issues -- patency of the spinal cord, and spinal stability. Actually, they're both the same issue.

The spine has to be stable to protect the cord and the peripheral nerves that exit to innervate the body. Broken vertebrae, badly herniated discs, injured ligaments that allow discs to slip forward or backward over each other -- these are serious problems of spinal instability that must be dealt with quickly.

Patency of the cord -- this refers to the volume of space in which the cord resides. It needs an open space all the way from your tail bone to your brain stem to function properly. If discs or bones encroach on that space, a condition called spinal stenosis, they threaten the function of the cord. Severe spinal stenosis, where the cord is in danger of being kinked like a hose, must be surgically "decompressed."

Your MRI shows neither of these serious problems. You have a typical problem, like many of us, that causes a lot of pain and other unpleasant symptoms.

There are a few treatments that can be followed, and good doctors will try them all before suggesting the last resort, surgical treatment.

I would suggest that you find a skilled interventional spine and pain specialist. This is a physician, usually trained in anesthesia, who has additional training and board certification in the treatment of chronic pain and diseases of the spine. In many cases, they can offer treatments that are much less invasive than surgery for the reduction of pain.

For example, I get a set of procedures every couple of years that cauterize the sensory nerves to some of by back's facet joints. These procedures reduce my back pain by 90% in the neck, and about 50% in the lower back. I also get physical therapy every so often, take opioid pain medication daily -- the strongest stuff available, and have other techniques for reducing pain. But, I live with pain every day.

You see, there's no fix for many of these problems -- they are chronic. I have chronic severe spine disease.

Some people believe medicine can "fix" them, and they go the surgical route. Sometimes this works. There are new techniques with artificial discs that have helped some. Unfortunately, surgery always causes scar tissue which can exacerbate pain, and that long yellow ligament I was talking about, the ligamentum flavum (I like the sound of that word), can get damaged and develop hypertrophy -- a kind of chronic inflammation -- causing more pain.

Unless people with back disease are facing those two serious conditions, I always recommend that they save surgery as a last resort, because it can cause extra pain, and it is irreversible.

I am not a medical doctor, but was a large animal veterinarian for over 20 years. It gave me a background in chemistry and biology that has made it easier for me to studying pain, back disease, available treatments, complications, and studies of the effectiveness of various therapies. But I recommend that every chronic pain patient learn all they can about their condition, available treatments and their complications, so that they can make their own decisions on such important questions like "should I have back surgery?"

I've lived with spine disease for 35 years, and enjoyed a successful career during much of that time (too short), raised a wonderful family of boys who are now young men with lives of their own, and have a beautiful partner in my wife of 37 years.

These have been my reasons to live with pain. Of course, the pain is more severe than it was 20 years ago, but I'm no longer required to wrestle an expectant mother sheep so that I can give her a pelvic exam. (I don't miss that part of the work one bit!)

Everything I told you here, your doctor should have explained, but I do understand they are under a lot of pressure for time these days (probably have big bills to pay on those expensive cars they drive.)

Remember, none of these conditions are life threatening, but they can cause pain. You need to find a medical team that you can trust, including n interventional pain specialist and spine surgeon, both. Between them, perhaps they can come up with a treatment plan that will reduce your pain a few points, and help you enjoy the rest of your life.

But educate yourself so that you can speak with them and understand what they are telling you. (Websites like spineuniverse.com have nice video illustrations about back disease and treatments.)

And now that you know words like DDD, spondylosis, spinal stenosis, and my favorite, ligamentum flavum, you can look these things up yourself.

Imagine your doctor's shock when he suggests fusion surgery to treat DDD, and you ask him, but Doctor, sir, will that help the pain of my facet syndrome? I'd like to see the look on his face.

I won't always be around to interpret, so take a note pad and pencil to each visit, and take notes. Bring questions and write down the answers.  If they use a word you don't understand, ask them to speak in English.
(Sometimes, I don't know what they're talking about -- I think they like the mumbo-jumbo because it makes them feel important, like having a secret decoder ring. But remember, behind that arrogant exterior, most physicians are insecure little boys with inferiority complexes -- they deserve your pity.:#)

I'm kidding. I have good relationships with my docs that are based on trust and mutual respect. (They wouldn't be my docs if we didn't have that basis.)

Best wishes, Sunflower. Keep shining.
Helpful - 0
4454327 tn?1405203128
Philnoir, thank you for helping. I didnt reply sooner as I knew I'd post my MRI findings and don't want to wear out my welcome on this thread. I do truly appreciate your expertise. :-)

Ok-Lumbar spine MRI w/o contrast.

Possible Sacral pseudoarthrosis on the right.

L1-L2-   Normal.


L2-l3-    Disc desiccation. Broad disc displacement without Foraminal stenosis.



L3-L4    Facet capsulitis. Bilobed disc displacement. No stenosis.


L4-L5    Disc Desiccation.  Facet Arthropathy. Ligamentum Flavum Hypertrophy.

L5-S1   Disc Desiccation. Broad disc displacement. Annular Rent. Facet Arthropathy. Mild Left foraminal stenosis with left L5 root abutment.



Whew. In layman's terms, what am I looking at? How does this possibly relate to the left foot tingling?

Also, that pseudoarthrosis?   Ive never had a broken hip. Could it be congential?

Any last thoughts? lol.. Ok god bless. :-)
Helpful - 0
7721494 tn?1431627964
There is a non-surgical treatment for spondylosis commonly called "RF Ablation", that should be explored before succumbing to surgery. The test to determine if RF ablation is effective is a simple procedure called a medial branch block.

If your surgeon is unaware or unwilling to follow up with this treatment, try seeing a board-certified interventional pain management doctor.

Depending on the severity of your annular tear, there's another procedure called IDET that may be able to repair this disk. It's still new and not done everywhere, but again, before I'd let a surgeon remove all or part of a disc, I'd examine every alternative treatment.

Best wishes.
Helpful - 0
4454327 tn?1405203128
Hello All. I just had a followup with Dr. to discuss MRI results.

I wanted copy of report but wont get that until Friday.

Spondylosis in the area of L5.
Also, Annular Tear of L5 disc.?

In my original message I failed to mention that 1.5 years ago, my left foot went numb. No pain, just tingling. Annoying but Ive learned to live with it. I saw a neurologist who thought it was idiopathic....i didnt mention it because I didnt think it was connected to back issues.

SO, now this doctor is concerned that the tingling might be from the disc and wants to do a nerve conduction test and I'm not looking forward to it.

He says my sciatic pain could be cause by the l5 tear but is not sure.

So, I still feel I dont have any answers. And I know Im rambling but i'm going on memory and really wished I had the written results.


He doesnt feel the urination troubles are related....

Now, he did mention possibly surgery, if it's deemed that this disc is causing the tingling. Is this necessary? I mean, it is annoying, but can it get worse?

Any guidance from the kind knowledgeable folks would be greatly appreciated. :-)
Helpful - 0
7721494 tn?1431627964
I guess it's a little bit of both, and thank you.

Surgery is never simple, but hope for the best (and plan for the worst.)

Best wishes.
Helpful - 0
4454327 tn?1405203128
You are very smart...not sure if it's through experience or education but I do appreciate you taking the time to pass the info on.  Let's hope it's a simple fix and I can feel better again. Best wishes. :-)
Helpful - 0
7721494 tn?1431627964
He may have seen that your disc was pressing on the lumbar nerve roots. These nerve roots branch and eventually innervate your urinary bladder.

Nerves that cause sciatic pain also come from these L4-L5 nerve roots.

Treatment at first can be conservative -- steroid injections may get the disc to shrink.

However, if this is indeed what's happening, you may have to have surgery to correct the problem.
Helpful - 0
4454327 tn?1405203128
Hi. Ok, went to Orthopedist today.  He said I had bone spurs, but those aren't causing pain at all.  He ordered an MRI and he pointed to something on Xray and stated that what he's seeing suggests that I may have a herniated disc on lumbar spine? Not sure, but he says that this would explain the bladder issues possibly and the sciatic pain.  Can you shed some light on what he could have seen? Thanks! :-)  And in the small chance that if I have a herniated disc and it is causing bladder problems, what can be done?
Helpful - 0
7721494 tn?1431627964
Glad to hear you are doing better. Keep it up.
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Avatar universal
I just passed the 9-month mark since my extrusion. I'm finally getting back to my previous functioning. I started a postural exercise program called the Egoscue Method about 4 months ago. It has made a tremendous difference. I still have some sciatica at times but it's very tolerable. I also started a gluten-free diet to reduce inflammation and it seems to be helping too. Thanks for asking.
Helpful - 0
4454327 tn?1405203128
Thank you for replying. I'm wondering if I have a disc problem. The loss of bladder function that day did scare me and I'm thinking that if it was anything serious, it would've happened again. I have read up on cauda equina and that particular area of body is not numb. I will keep all updated.  How are you feeling now?
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4454327 tn?1405203128
Thank you.
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Avatar universal
I don't want to alarm you but I'd suggest you have it checked out. I'm close to your age and had an extruded disc, which resulted in sciatica. I consulted a neurosurgeon who told me that surgery wasn't necessary unless I lost control of my bowels or bladder. It's a condition called cauda equina. Fortunately that didn't happen to me but the neurosurgeon emphasized it strongly.
Helpful - 0
7721494 tn?1431627964
If there's one thing I've learned here, it is that we're not alone. There's plenty of people who hurt in this world -- too many.

Hope for a successful outcome.

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4454327 tn?1405203128
Thank you so much for this info. Really narrowed things down for me. I don't know if there is a simple answer regardless of the origin, but it's good to know I'm not alone. It's tough always worrying about bending down or sitting in a chair for fear of of feeling that dreaded pain for weeks. Thanks again..:-)
Helpful - 0
7721494 tn?1431627964
Innervation of the urinary bladder and the urethra originates in the S2-S4 nerve roots. By all means see your orthopaedic doctor at the end of the month as this episode of incontinence may be significant because of your history of sciatic "issues" as you say.

But please remember that sciatic pain can be caused by lumbar nerve root impingement unrelated to any sciatic root involvement -- the incontinence and the sciatic issues may not be related.

Since incontinence can also be caused by other non-neurological factors, so if you have repeat episodes, please see your personal doctor or gynecologist.

Best wishes.
Helpful - 0
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