Aa
How do you explain the trinity?
I often reflect back on the difficulty I had understanding the trinity. I just could not figure out how there could be 3 diffrent idenities in one. finally when in my mid 20's i had the privilege of being given the following example.
I was told that the Trinity was like water. I was reminded how water when frozen takes on one idenity. When nothing is done to water it is liquid and flow freely thru your hands. The 3rd property is the state of water boiling takes on the idenity of steam. So, even though you may be seeing 3 different states of water they are all the same substance.
Since i had such a hard time understand the trinity I would like to kow either how you explain it or how ir was explained to you the first time to you finally undertood.
I was told that the Trinity was like water. I was reminded how water when frozen takes on one idenity. When nothing is done to water it is liquid and flow freely thru your hands. The 3rd property is the state of water boiling takes on the idenity of steam. So, even though you may be seeing 3 different states of water they are all the same substance.
Since i had such a hard time understand the trinity I would like to kow either how you explain it or how ir was explained to you the first time to you finally undertood.
There is a trinity of evil as well. Did anyone know that?
'The LORD Our God Is One'
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" This simple declaration by Moses in Deuteronomy 6:4 has caused considerable consternation to many who try to understand who and what God is.
Reading here that God is one, most Jews for centuries have ruled out the possibility that Jesus of Nazareth could be the Son of God, on the same divine plane as God the Father.
Early Catholic theologians, reading the same verse, struggled to formulate in the doctrine of the Trinity a God consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who were all distinct persons yet at the same time a single triune God.
How, then, should we understand this verse?
One of the primary principles for understanding the Bible is that we must consider all the scriptures on a subject. Only then will we come to a complete and accurate understanding of the matter.
Other biblical passages clearly tell us that two distinct individuals, the Father and Jesus Christ the Son, are both God (Hebrews 1:8; John 1:1, 14). Therefore we should consider whether this verse is commenting on the numerical oneness of God, or something else entirely.
The Hebrew word translated "one" in Deuteronomy 6:4 is echad. Its meanings include the number one, but also such associated meanings as "one and the same," "as one man, together [unified]," "each, every," "one after another" and "first [in sequence or importance]" (Brown, Driver and Briggs, A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1951, p. 25). It can also be rendered "alone," as the NRSV translates it here (William Holladay, A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1972, p. 9). The exact meaning is best determined by context.
In this case, several interpretations could be both grammatically correct and consistent with other biblical statements.
In Deuteronomy 6:4 Moses may have simply been telling the Israelites that the true God, their God, was to be first—the highest priority—in their hearts and minds. The young nation had risen from slavery in a culture in which the Egyptians deified many gods, and they were poised to enter a land whose inhabitants were steeped in worship of many supposed gods and goddesses of fertility, rain, war, journeys, etc. Through Moses, God sternly warned the Israelites of the dangers of abandoning Him to follow other gods.
This interpretation—that God is to be the Israelites' first priority—is strongly supported by the context. In the very next verse Moses continues, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."
This passage is at the heart of a several-chapters-long discussion of the benefits and blessings of wholeheartedly following God and avoiding the idolatrous practices of the people whom they would drive out of the Promised Land. Jesus Himself quoted Deuteronomy 6:4-5 as the "first and great commandment" in the law (Mark 12:28-30; Matthew 22:36-38).
The translation "alone" fits this context as well. That is, the true God was to be Israel's God alone; the Israelites were to have no other.
Another view of this passage is based on the root word from which echad is derived, achad. This word means "to unify" or "go one way or other" (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible). In other words, echad can also mean in unity or a group united as one.
In several verses echad clearly has the meaning of more than one person united as a group. In Genesis 11:6 God says of those building the tower of Babel, "Indeed the people are one [echad] . . ." In Genesis 2:24 He says, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one [echad] flesh."
When we read of a large group of people being one or a man and wife becoming one flesh in marital union, we understand that multiple individuals are involved. We do not assume that separate individuals, though united in spirit and purpose, have physically merged to become a single being.
God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son are clearly of one mind and purpose. Jesus said of His mission, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work" and ". . . I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me" (John 4:34; 5:30).
Describing Their relationship, Jesus said, "I and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Christ prayed that His followers, both then and in the future, would be unified in mind and purpose just as He and the Father were. "I do not pray for these [disciples] alone," He said, "but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us . . ." (John 17:20-21).
No matter which translation we accept—whether "The LORD our God, the LORD is first," "The LORD is our God, the LORD alone," or "The LORD our God, the LORD is one!"—none limits God to a singular Being. And, in light of the scriptures we've seen and others, it is clear that God is a plurality of Beings—a plurality in unity. In other words, God the Father and Jesus the Son form a family perfect in its unity.
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" This simple declaration by Moses in Deuteronomy 6:4 has caused considerable consternation to many who try to understand who and what God is.
Reading here that God is one, most Jews for centuries have ruled out the possibility that Jesus of Nazareth could be the Son of God, on the same divine plane as God the Father.
Early Catholic theologians, reading the same verse, struggled to formulate in the doctrine of the Trinity a God consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, who were all distinct persons yet at the same time a single triune God.
How, then, should we understand this verse?
One of the primary principles for understanding the Bible is that we must consider all the scriptures on a subject. Only then will we come to a complete and accurate understanding of the matter.
Other biblical passages clearly tell us that two distinct individuals, the Father and Jesus Christ the Son, are both God (Hebrews 1:8; John 1:1, 14). Therefore we should consider whether this verse is commenting on the numerical oneness of God, or something else entirely.
The Hebrew word translated "one" in Deuteronomy 6:4 is echad. Its meanings include the number one, but also such associated meanings as "one and the same," "as one man, together [unified]," "each, every," "one after another" and "first [in sequence or importance]" (Brown, Driver and Briggs, A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1951, p. 25). It can also be rendered "alone," as the NRSV translates it here (William Holladay, A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, 1972, p. 9). The exact meaning is best determined by context.
In this case, several interpretations could be both grammatically correct and consistent with other biblical statements.
In Deuteronomy 6:4 Moses may have simply been telling the Israelites that the true God, their God, was to be first—the highest priority—in their hearts and minds. The young nation had risen from slavery in a culture in which the Egyptians deified many gods, and they were poised to enter a land whose inhabitants were steeped in worship of many supposed gods and goddesses of fertility, rain, war, journeys, etc. Through Moses, God sternly warned the Israelites of the dangers of abandoning Him to follow other gods.
This interpretation—that God is to be the Israelites' first priority—is strongly supported by the context. In the very next verse Moses continues, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."
This passage is at the heart of a several-chapters-long discussion of the benefits and blessings of wholeheartedly following God and avoiding the idolatrous practices of the people whom they would drive out of the Promised Land. Jesus Himself quoted Deuteronomy 6:4-5 as the "first and great commandment" in the law (Mark 12:28-30; Matthew 22:36-38).
The translation "alone" fits this context as well. That is, the true God was to be Israel's God alone; the Israelites were to have no other.
Another view of this passage is based on the root word from which echad is derived, achad. This word means "to unify" or "go one way or other" (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible). In other words, echad can also mean in unity or a group united as one.
In several verses echad clearly has the meaning of more than one person united as a group. In Genesis 11:6 God says of those building the tower of Babel, "Indeed the people are one [echad] . . ." In Genesis 2:24 He says, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one [echad] flesh."
When we read of a large group of people being one or a man and wife becoming one flesh in marital union, we understand that multiple individuals are involved. We do not assume that separate individuals, though united in spirit and purpose, have physically merged to become a single being.
God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son are clearly of one mind and purpose. Jesus said of His mission, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work" and ". . . I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me" (John 4:34; 5:30).
Describing Their relationship, Jesus said, "I and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Christ prayed that His followers, both then and in the future, would be unified in mind and purpose just as He and the Father were. "I do not pray for these [disciples] alone," He said, "but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us . . ." (John 17:20-21).
No matter which translation we accept—whether "The LORD our God, the LORD is first," "The LORD is our God, the LORD alone," or "The LORD our God, the LORD is one!"—none limits God to a singular Being. And, in light of the scriptures we've seen and others, it is clear that God is a plurality of Beings—a plurality in unity. In other words, God the Father and Jesus the Son form a family perfect in its unity.
This is a topic worth exploring because it is deemed a "mystery".
The following is from a site I came across:
Why Can't Theologians Explain the Trinity Doctrine?
Many people assume that the Holy Spirit, along with God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son, form what is commonly known as the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity expresses a belief in one God who exists in three distinct but equal persons. Is the Holy Spirit truly a third divine person, along with the Father and Jesus?
In spite of these assumptions, the word Trinity doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible. In fact, it did not come into common use as a religious term until several centuries after the last books of the Bible were completed.
Notice this admission in the New Bible Dictionary: "The term 'Trinity' is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries" (1996, "Trinity," emphasis added).
The dictionary goes on to explain that "the formal doctrine of the Trinity was the result of several inadequate attempts to explain who and what the Christian God really is ... To deal with these problems the Church Fathers met in 325 at the Council of Nicaea to set out an orthodox biblical definition concerning the divine identity." However, it wasn't until 381, "at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed ..." (ibid.).
We see, then, that the doctrine of the Trinity wasn't formalized until long after the Bible was completed and the apostles long dead in their graves. It took later theologians several centuries to sort out what they believed concerning the Holy Spirit.
And by no means are theologians' explanations of the Trinity doctrine clear. A.W. Tozer, in his book The Knowledge of the Holy, writes that the Trinity is an "incomprehensible mystery" and that attempts to understand it "must remain forever futile." He admits that churches, "without pretending to understand," have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine (1961, pp. 17-18).
Unger's Bible Dictionary, in its article on the Trinity, concedes that the Trinitarian concept is humanly incomprehensible: "It is admitted by all who thoughtfully deal with this subject that the Scripture revelation here leads us into the presence of a deep mystery; and that all human attempts at expression are of necessity imperfect" (1966, p. 1118).
Why do even those who believe in the concept of the Holy Spirit as a third person of a supposedly triune Godhead, along with God the Father and Jesus the Son, find it so difficult to explain?
Because the Bible does not teach it! One cannot prove something from the Bible that is not biblical. The Bible is our only reliable source of divine revelation and truth, and the Trinity concept simply is not part of God's revelation to humankind.
The Holy Spirit, rather than a distinct person, is described in the Bible as being God's divine power (see "Is the Holy Spirit a Person?").
http://www.ucg.org/booklets/TL/trinitydoctrine.asp
The following is from a site I came across:
Why Can't Theologians Explain the Trinity Doctrine?
Many people assume that the Holy Spirit, along with God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son, form what is commonly known as the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity expresses a belief in one God who exists in three distinct but equal persons. Is the Holy Spirit truly a third divine person, along with the Father and Jesus?
In spite of these assumptions, the word Trinity doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible. In fact, it did not come into common use as a religious term until several centuries after the last books of the Bible were completed.
Notice this admission in the New Bible Dictionary: "The term 'Trinity' is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries" (1996, "Trinity," emphasis added).
The dictionary goes on to explain that "the formal doctrine of the Trinity was the result of several inadequate attempts to explain who and what the Christian God really is ... To deal with these problems the Church Fathers met in 325 at the Council of Nicaea to set out an orthodox biblical definition concerning the divine identity." However, it wasn't until 381, "at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed ..." (ibid.).
We see, then, that the doctrine of the Trinity wasn't formalized until long after the Bible was completed and the apostles long dead in their graves. It took later theologians several centuries to sort out what they believed concerning the Holy Spirit.
And by no means are theologians' explanations of the Trinity doctrine clear. A.W. Tozer, in his book The Knowledge of the Holy, writes that the Trinity is an "incomprehensible mystery" and that attempts to understand it "must remain forever futile." He admits that churches, "without pretending to understand," have nevertheless continued to teach this doctrine (1961, pp. 17-18).
Unger's Bible Dictionary, in its article on the Trinity, concedes that the Trinitarian concept is humanly incomprehensible: "It is admitted by all who thoughtfully deal with this subject that the Scripture revelation here leads us into the presence of a deep mystery; and that all human attempts at expression are of necessity imperfect" (1966, p. 1118).
Why do even those who believe in the concept of the Holy Spirit as a third person of a supposedly triune Godhead, along with God the Father and Jesus the Son, find it so difficult to explain?
Because the Bible does not teach it! One cannot prove something from the Bible that is not biblical. The Bible is our only reliable source of divine revelation and truth, and the Trinity concept simply is not part of God's revelation to humankind.
The Holy Spirit, rather than a distinct person, is described in the Bible as being God's divine power (see "Is the Holy Spirit a Person?").
http://www.ucg.org/booklets/TL/trinitydoctrine.asp
Do you know there actually is nowhere in the bible that says the word "trinity"? Many times Jesus said he and the father were one, and when you see Jesus you see the father or when you know Jesus you know the father.
Jesus said he'd send the Holy Spirit, or the comforter, to the disciples after he ascended to heaven and that he must go or the Holy Spirit would not be able to come. He said they all would be filled with the spirit, whereasa in the Old Testament it used to just be a select few who were filled with the Spirit, now it's available for all believers. It's interesting.
I personally have always felt like Jesus is God's Son but is so close to the Father that they are always in agreement and in unison with each other. I also feel like, after reading the bible carefully, that The Holy Spirit is actually Jesus' Spirit whom he sent down after going to the Father. I do feel like there's a unison but also a seperateness.
Jesus prayed to the Father on many occasions and even cried out to the Father while on the cross, asking why He had forsaken him. He had also asked the Father to remove the cup he was about to drink (the suffering he was about to receive) while he was in the Garden of Gethsemane..
There were times it seemed the Lord was talking to someone else (I believe it was the Father and Jesus) like when the people were building the Tower of Babel and the Lord went down to look and said , "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." Genesis 11:6,7. Notice He sais US.
He also says US and OUR, again using the plural in Genesis 1:26. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
He did this several times throughout the bible, using the plural and talking to, either God the Father or Jesus the Son.
All these things added up suggests to me that Jesus was seperate from God in that he is His son whom the Father is very pleased with but also so close to the Father that they are also "one".
Jesus said we too should be "one in spirit" as believers since we are all the body of Christ.
So, that's how I see it. I pray to the Father but also Jesus and pray in Jesus name.
I think in Revelations it also says that we are coheirs with Jesus since we were adopted (by the Father into His family) and Jesus is considered our brother and coheir. He's always praying for us, always interceding for us, and sits on the right hand of the Father. All the Father has is his and vice versa. Jesus is our advocate when the devil tries to accuse us. God the Father no longer looks at our sin once we accept Christ as Lord and Savior because we are covered in his blood and take on his righteousness. So He sees Jesus' righteousness, not ours. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags and cannot save us. We must take on the righteousness of Jesus our Lord and Savior.
God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are one yet seperate. Yes, it's a mystery that's hard to understand but then there's a lot that we aren't going to understand until we see Him face to face. God says His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Makes sense to me! After all, He's the God of the universe and everything in it. That in itself is mind boggling!
Jesus said he'd send the Holy Spirit, or the comforter, to the disciples after he ascended to heaven and that he must go or the Holy Spirit would not be able to come. He said they all would be filled with the spirit, whereasa in the Old Testament it used to just be a select few who were filled with the Spirit, now it's available for all believers. It's interesting.
I personally have always felt like Jesus is God's Son but is so close to the Father that they are always in agreement and in unison with each other. I also feel like, after reading the bible carefully, that The Holy Spirit is actually Jesus' Spirit whom he sent down after going to the Father. I do feel like there's a unison but also a seperateness.
Jesus prayed to the Father on many occasions and even cried out to the Father while on the cross, asking why He had forsaken him. He had also asked the Father to remove the cup he was about to drink (the suffering he was about to receive) while he was in the Garden of Gethsemane..
There were times it seemed the Lord was talking to someone else (I believe it was the Father and Jesus) like when the people were building the Tower of Babel and the Lord went down to look and said , "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." Genesis 11:6,7. Notice He sais US.
He also says US and OUR, again using the plural in Genesis 1:26. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
He did this several times throughout the bible, using the plural and talking to, either God the Father or Jesus the Son.
All these things added up suggests to me that Jesus was seperate from God in that he is His son whom the Father is very pleased with but also so close to the Father that they are also "one".
Jesus said we too should be "one in spirit" as believers since we are all the body of Christ.
So, that's how I see it. I pray to the Father but also Jesus and pray in Jesus name.
I think in Revelations it also says that we are coheirs with Jesus since we were adopted (by the Father into His family) and Jesus is considered our brother and coheir. He's always praying for us, always interceding for us, and sits on the right hand of the Father. All the Father has is his and vice versa. Jesus is our advocate when the devil tries to accuse us. God the Father no longer looks at our sin once we accept Christ as Lord and Savior because we are covered in his blood and take on his righteousness. So He sees Jesus' righteousness, not ours. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags and cannot save us. We must take on the righteousness of Jesus our Lord and Savior.
God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are one yet seperate. Yes, it's a mystery that's hard to understand but then there's a lot that we aren't going to understand until we see Him face to face. God says His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Makes sense to me! After all, He's the God of the universe and everything in it. That in itself is mind boggling!
I’ve heard of the “triple point” of water experiment where you can take a vacuum tube, put water into it, then remove all of the oxygen. You then put the tube under 220 MM of gas pressure and reduce the temperature of the tube to zero degrees (not sure whether F or Celsius on this temperature).
In the one test tube at the exact same micro-second, the bottom of the tube will freeze, the middle of the tube will remain liquid, and the top of the tube will puff into steam. Water exists in three separate states (solid, liquid, gas) simultaneously within the 1 test tube. I’m sure there is a weakness in this analogy somewhere due to using natural things to illustrate the divine nature. But if water can co-exist in 3 different states simultaneously, it shouldn’t be a problem for the Creator of the universe (God).
_______________
The Trinity is a Mystery and the human mind cannot fully comprehend it. Many struggle with it and it is a divider amongst people such as the Jehovah Witnesses who do not accept Jesus as being God.
I have tried to understand it but it is profound. It would be a good discussion but will go on and on because of the deepness of it. We are made in God's image according to Scripture. I meditated on it and thought about how there are parents and a child ...3 being human ...Father, Mother, child but it doesn't quite make it. There are thoughts about an egg I heard years ago with yolk, white and shell being the egg but they do not remain separate from each other and together fully existing.
Good question and one that will continue to fascinate us.
In the one test tube at the exact same micro-second, the bottom of the tube will freeze, the middle of the tube will remain liquid, and the top of the tube will puff into steam. Water exists in three separate states (solid, liquid, gas) simultaneously within the 1 test tube. I’m sure there is a weakness in this analogy somewhere due to using natural things to illustrate the divine nature. But if water can co-exist in 3 different states simultaneously, it shouldn’t be a problem for the Creator of the universe (God).
_______________
The Trinity is a Mystery and the human mind cannot fully comprehend it. Many struggle with it and it is a divider amongst people such as the Jehovah Witnesses who do not accept Jesus as being God.
I have tried to understand it but it is profound. It would be a good discussion but will go on and on because of the deepness of it. We are made in God's image according to Scripture. I meditated on it and thought about how there are parents and a child ...3 being human ...Father, Mother, child but it doesn't quite make it. There are thoughts about an egg I heard years ago with yolk, white and shell being the egg but they do not remain separate from each other and together fully existing.
Good question and one that will continue to fascinate us.
Good Job! A very good explanation!
Father-GOD-Abba, is <3 Unconditional Love <3, Jesus-Son, is peace, understanding, and forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit 0:o), is Faith "Our Faith" by our Actions and Words to <3, understand, have peace in our hearts, and forgiveness of Ourselves and Others without agenda and also to Share to Good News of GOD's Love, Faith, Compassion, and Forgiveness and for All because GOD allows U-Turns all you have do do is Dare to Believe and Proceed with the Good Word.....
jimi (little wing )
jimi (little wing )
I was told to think about it like an orange. You have the rind, the inside flesh and the seeds. It's all one orange but 3 different parts of the orange.
I know what you mean, understanding the trinity is difficult to fully understand!
I know what you mean, understanding the trinity is difficult to fully understand!
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