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973741 tn?1342342773

Conflicting information on corona on surfaces.

There are a lot of things written about COVID-19, from how you need to wipe down delivered grocery items to how it barely survives on surfaces, or maybe it survives a few days. With the kids going back to school, I'm worried about surfaces in common areas. What are your thoughts?
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Avatar universal
I wipe down surfaces with bleach every other day and things that are touched often like door handles, remotes, light switches etc. I don’t wipe down groceries, but I do throw away the bags. I just make sure I wash my hands and use hand sanitizer when I’m not at the house and keep a bottle of hand sanitizer in the car. I wear masks, I usually wear two masks when around people.
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707563 tn?1626361905
This is a thread about COVID-19 on surfaces. Let's keep it on topic, and supplements have nothing to do with this subject.

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649848 tn?1534633700
Although we need to be safe, is there such a thing as being too safe?  We need to be exposed to a certain amount of bacteria to be healthy and have an active immune system.  For years,  I've read that kids allowed to get dirty are healthier than those kept in "too clean" environments.  
https://health.usnews.com/wellness/articles/hygiene-hypothesis-could-more-dirt-and-germs-boost-your-health

I do use a limited amount of hand sanitizer and wipe certain things down regularly, but don't scrub my food (other than normal precautions), etc.  
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There is no meter to measure how much Covid you are being exposed to in someone's breath etc. especially since it is a changing concentration when it hits your airways, so that won't work. No one even knows the minimum concentration required to infect enough to make you sick either. One bad infection for 200,000 US lives has killed them and countless others have permanent health problems so I wouldn't play around with the notion of building your immune system with exposures.
Barb is right, using too much hand sanitizer will harm your immune system.  But Covid isn't bacteria, it's a virus that is new to us and so for many of us our immune systems are not responding to it properly.  If it sticks around for many years that might change.  Who knows.  But for now, we do have to be safer than it would normally be wise to do, but I don't think we need to overdo hand sanitizer when soap and water work.  It is true that trying to prevent disease causes disease.  Antibiotics have done that.  Vaccines may have overstimulated the immune systems of the very young because we have so many of them now taken so close together in time.  The diseases they prevent are, however, largely much more deadly than the chronic ailments that an abused immune system usually produces, but in time we will figure this out too, probably by spreading out the vaccines just as we've been instructed to cut down on antibiotic use to when it's absolutely necessary and trying to get it out of the food supply.  People in general live longer today than they used to, but a lot of that is women not dying in childbirth and children not dying in childbirth and fewer wars -- I know, it seems like war is everywhere, so we have a way to go on that, but a lot of young people especially males die in war and hard labor, and there truly is less of it per capita.  So we live longer, sicker lives, but in a crisis we must deal with it and when it goes away we can go back to worrying about such things.  Peace.
I realize there's no meter to determine how much coronavirus one might be coming into contact with and certainly there's no way of knowing how sick one will get if we do come into contact with it.  The point was that swinging too far either direction could be detrimental to our heath.  

I'm very well aware of the difference between a virus and bacteria and that coronaVIRSUS is a virus not bacteria.  The point was that we naturally have a wide variety of bacteria (and yes, some viruses) that live in our bodies all the time and help keep us healthy.  Sanitizers don't know the difference between bacteria and virus; they simply eliminate "germs" so trying to "disinfect" everything could cause other health problems.  

I agree that more precaution may be necessary now than we normally take and I do use hand sanitizer when I don't have soap and water available and I do regularly wipe down certain surfaces in my home, but I do those things all the time anyway, along with sanitizing the cart when I go grocery shopping, etc.  I think it's important to keep things in perspective though - if there's no one coming to your home, except those who live there and everyone is washing hands properly or you're not out socializing a lot, you're probably pretty safe.   Those that have kids in school, have to go work, etc would need to be more cautious, because they can bring the virus in.   I don't think there's any set rules and that everyone needs to take precautions according to their situation.  

I see workers in the grocery stores wearing gloves and masks so assuming they change the gloves on a regular basis, I feel pretty safe that I'm not bringing the virus home on my groceries.   I'm also reading more and more that we're most likely to get the virus if we spend, at least, 15 minutes or more with someone who has it, so just going to the grocery store and picking up a few things should be relatively safe - of course, that's assuming that one is wearing a mask, social distancing, not stopping to chat with friends/acquaintances, etc.

I'm in no way downplaying the virus because I think it's pretty scary and of course, my heart goes out to those families that have lost loved ones due to the virus.  200,00o deaths is way too many... I just think that we need to keep things in perspective and use common sense so it doesn't totally rule us.
1404851 tn?1514640442
I don't believe the Virus can live on  a surface more than minutes if even minutes. The virus needs a host  to feed from  Some bacteria can live outside the body for a while. That's just my opinion. Can it be coughed in the air and you close to it, I am sure it can be transmitted. But sitting on a surface for a while , I can't believe it.
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It can live for longer than a few minutes.  They've already proven that.  What they haven't proven is if it's still potent enough to get you sick.  Because it might, we wash our hands after touching things and don't touch our faces if we've touched surfaces in public places until we have washed out hands.  While it's true a virus needs a host, it's also true if they died immediately upon leaving a host they wouldn't be contagious in the air, either.  How long and how potent it is in those conditions is always the question.  The mere presence of some virus doesn't mean it can cause illness, it has to be under the right conditions and in sufficient potency.  
When you catching it in the air I assume you breath it in within seconds. I agree there is always a possibility it could be alive on surfaces but for how long is the question. Very likely not very long.  And unless you touch it and put in in your eyes, nose, or mouth immediately , chances , I believe, are very slim to nothing .  It also could be that the virus in the air lives longer.
doro Read Microbiologist Scientist mkh9 post on this thread on Aug 9.
1415174 tn?1453243103
I wipe down my faucet handles after washing hands after coming in from being in public. Also, door knobs, light switches and other "fomites". I put things I eat that you can wash in a bucket of soapy water. As for Packages I quarantine the items after opening or wipe them down. Usually, I quarantine for 9 days unless I need it right away. Dr. Fauci from the CDC changed his mind about the mail. He thinks its possible to get it from the mail. So I wash my hands after. Coronavirus can linger in the air for 3 hours too.
Microbiologist Scientist
mkh9
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Yuck, soaping down food requires lots of rinsing. I pressure cook most food but don't know if that helps.
I will stay upwind from now on whenever I have to mechanically clean my hands.

Here is a Time article COVID-19 Is Transmitted Through Aerosols..   hashttps://news.yahoo.com/covid-19-transmitted-aerosols-enough-110024854.html
Mkh - Fauci says that he lets his mail sit for about a day. No one has said 9 days?

And I haven't been washing food with soap, either.
AntiJessi,
I soap down only things I don't cook. For example bananas. Anything I cook I just throw in the refrigerator.
I let my mail sit about 3 days unless it is important then I open it that day with gloves or wash hands. It is partly what you are comfortable with so that one doesn't freak out. Being a microbiologist and having a couple of very sick friends from this has made me more worried I think.
I'm actually more careful about other foodborne guck like salmonella or botulism. (I date all the food I buy before putting it in the fridge, and have kept a box of disposable gloves under the kitchen sink for years and always wear them when handling raw meat, especially chicken.) But I'm with auntiejessi on the washing of food, partly since the virus is said not to live more than three days on surfaces (and I can let most food sit that long), and also because they said early in the pandemic that while Covid-19 can manifest as a stomach virus, if it does, it isn't as serious as if it manifests as a respiratory virus. Who knows if they have been able to prove that out, but it seemed at the time like you'd get a stomachache and the runs and that would be it, and then you'd have Covid immunity. (Not that it sounded desirable, but it didn't sound deadly.) I do wash my hands when I've been away from the house and come back, and  after handling things that have come into the house from outside, but that's about it in terms of washing.
Yuck as well.  Who wants to eat a banana that's been soaked in soap?  And unless you're eating the peel.  Again, I have never washed my food.  I have never avoided touching things.  That's just my wife and I, so everyone, do what you think the science tells you.  What it tells me is, and I keep seeing this said, not one person has been contact traced who got it from touching a surface, they all also had extended contact with someone breathing on them.  That doesn't mean that's true.  I would also think cooking any food would destroy the virus immediately.  I own no hand sanitizer, but again, that's just me.  I don't suggest anyone else do this, just to let you know my wife and I still go to the health food store and do grocery shopping and go to the drug store when we need to and get take-out food and we never ever wash any of it down, but what we do religiously is social distancing and mask wearing when we can't.  Now, if you do touch something, don't put your hand near your nose.  And as to that immunity, we still don't know that.  Also important to know.  There are several anecdotal reports about people getting it again and now one case that is recent and has been accepted by a peer reviewed journal for publication because the genetic makeup of the two infection were not the same.  The second time there were no symptoms, though, so it appears although there was no absolute immunity there does appear to have been some immunity.  We're all hoping there's immunity, but from what I'm hearing, it's likely even if there is to be limited in time.  And again, I don't believe you get colds from touching a shopping cart.  My post on that was taken down.  Colds are everywhere, so we can get them anywhere when our immune systems are down.  The good news is, by next year we will have a vaccine, and at least for now, most of the country is on the downward side of the number of cases.  My only fear is the process of producing the vaccine has been politicized, and not just in the US -- it has been overtaken by nationalism, with different countries paying for speeding up the process and guaranteeing they get to purchase the vaccine.  And this might be bad, because this is a world pandemic and everyone has to get vaccinated or it might turn out nobody is, as the vaccines in production now do not appear to give immunity for very long.  My fear is that once some vaccines are out there, better ones won't be pursued because the gov'ts won't be funding that and we might lose out on one that might take longer to produce but has better long-term results.  Got my fingers and toes crossed!
I should have clarified, my wife is retired and writes now and I was a writer before I got sick so we don't have to go to work.  If we did, we'd probably be using hand sanitizer some.  But we are doing a lot of hand washing with soap and water.  A lot.
I sent my kids off to school for the first time in 6 months today.  (they are back home tomorrow . . . staggering days).  Hand sanitizer is required to come to school along with the mask, of course.  I like washing hands better as I know the soap is going to work.  Hand sanitizer can be iffy with alcohol content.  I believe it has to be over 60 percent to be effective.  I am a super cynic now too and although I bought a monster bottle of sanitizer to refill the little travel bottles my kids have, I wonder if it IS what they say it IS.  That's good old paranoia.  But, so many places are manufacturing this stuff now, who knows.  I had a friend offer me some recently and she dolloped some on my hands.  It smelled like straight tequila! lol  She told me that it was made in a distillery that began producing it.  I'm pretty sure I could have put a lime in it and it would have tasted good.  Anyway, hoping for the best.  

Paxiled, when we are just at home and not out and about, we just do our normal hand washing, obviously.  But we've trained our boys (tried to) that when they come home from anywhere or before they eat to wash their hands.  My sensory kid does not like hand washing, so we have always had a lot of hand sanitizer because of that.

It is easy to be overly cautious.  I was wiping down my groceries a few months back that were delivered.  I'm bad now and just immediately put them away without thinking too much about it.  And I haven't even thought about not touching my mail.  I try to be safe as possible.  I make sure that I socially distance unless I'm around someone frequently.  

I found out for lunch at my kids school, a high school of 1200 students, that they are putting grades in different rooms for lunch and they have assigned seating with two at a table across from one another.  One of my kids is like, boo.  The other is relieved because he doesn't have to find someone to eat with (since his best friend opted for virtual school).  Anyway, we all just have to do the best we can and do what works for us, right?!  

I'll vaccinate when I feel it is safe.  I am looking forward to that!
I saw a video on the news awhile back how they were doing school in, I think, South Korea.  It was ingenious.  Every desk was surrounded by cardboard that made them all cubicles.  Everyone had to wear not only a mask but also visors.  They ate socially distanced in their classroom, not in a cafeteria.  They exercised socially distanced.  That's how they got their school opened months ago.  One of our problems is that, as my brother put it, Americans are ungovernable even if we had a national policy that everyone could follow that would have prevented the virus from moving from place to place.  I don't know if he's right, but school can be done.  I've thought that we should turn all school for now into boarding school.  That way if a student did get the virus, they could quarantine there and in any case they couldn't bring it anywhere else.  
973741 tn?1342342773
I'm a sanitizing freak during cold and flu season and in general.  I wipe down our door knobs, faucets, remotes, etc.  on a regular basis.  So, yea, I've been doing that since covid happened regularly.  I'm certain that with 150 plus students rotating through every high school class room without cleaning in between, there is some yuck going on on those desks.  I'm considering sending some lysol wipes in a baggie for my kids to use if they think of it.  One will (my guy who doesn't like germs) and one won't (my guy who hates germs but can't be bothered with anything that requires thinking about it ahead of time).

It's a very stressful time sending kids back into the building for school.  We have people telling us (that work there) that it may last a week and possibly two before we have enough sick people they go blended or remote.  We'll see what happens.  But I don't like to touch surfaces right now.  

Some of the absolute worst colds and viruses I've had happened right after I used a cart somewhere.  Groceries, I'm good about wiping down the cart and they have plenty of supplies to do it.  Home Depot or someplace like that?  In the past, I didn't do it and literally was sick two to three days later.  Has happened more than once. Wipe down shopping carts ---  always.  
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In March one epidemiologist said if you are in a place that doesn't have soap or sanitizer do mechanical cleaning because it probably works - rubbing your hands vigorously to break the attachment between the virus and your skin then run water over them while continuing to rub to move it away. This theory may remain a probability for a while. Here is a 2019 article. https://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2019/09/study-washing-your-hands-even-without-soap-is-more-effective-than-hand-sanitizers-for-flu-prevention/#:~:text=Washing%20your%20hands%20under%20running%20water%20%E2%80%94%20even,using%20ethanol-based%20hand%20sanitizers%2C%20according%20to%20Japanese%20researchers.
Maybe. It seems like the friction on dry hands might aerosolize the virus? I wouldn't do it. Wet water is better than nothing. But soap is what actually breaks up the virus and makes it not be able to attach itself to the host.
p.s. Also alcohol based hand sanitizer (70% or higher) and disinfectant wipes usually don't seem to irritate my skin if you can get them.
mkh9
Actually rubbing with soap with a brush will kill the virus shell. My opinion,
207091 tn?1337709493
They said awhile ago that you probably don't need to be wiping down groceries. Fauci and other health experts aren't wiping their groceries - https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/how-fauci-5-other-health-specialists-deal-with-covid-19-risks-in-their-everyday-lives/2020/07/02/d4665ed6-b6fb-11ea-a510-55bf26485c93_story.html

It can live on surfaces, but it's largely airborne - https://abcnews.go.com/Health/science-shows-coronavirus-survive-plastic-metal-surfaces-matter/story?id=72422796

That said, I'm not a parent and can't begin to imagine the decision of sending my kid back to school right now. I don't think I'd worry about desks and such so much as parents sending their kids to school sick, but it must be agonizing.
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I've never personally wiped down anything.  I don't own any sanitizer.  I do wash my hands after returning from grocery store and again after putting groceries away, but not after using the food.  I watch a lot of news and listen to a lot of news on public radio -- a cost of doing way too much physical therapy which now takes up most of my life -- and so I listen to a ton of interviews with experts every day.  While all recommend safety, the hand sanitizer is really for people who are out in the work force or out doing things and don't have constant access to a place to wash hands, unlike old folks like me who are home most of the time anyway.  All experts urge caution out of an abundance of concern, but as I've said before, as far as I know nobody yet who has been contact traced has had the virus and only contacted a surface, they have all also had close contact with someone breathing on them for an extended period of time.  Doesn't mean never, but I think even if some virus is on the surface of things it isn't strong enough or in the air where you breathe it in so any risk would be minimal.  But I think the true answer is, do what meets your level of comfort because I don't think anyone knows yet as a certainty.  But again, neither my wife nor I have ever wiped down a single thing all this time and we haven't gotten the virus, and the advice now is not to overworry that part of it.  Do what makes you feel the least amount of stress, I think.
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