The information on this site about Demodectic (or'Red') Mange may help you:
It seems that the dips cause side effects, and these can last for up to 36 hours. I would think that 2 days wasn't outside those parameters.
If she is starting to feel better that's a good sign. But of course do keep a careful eye on her.
When the mange spreads it can be very hard to control. Mange can weaken a dog a lot, so it's good to get it treated. It is more common in young dogs whose immune systems haven't yet got up to full strength, or older dogs, or those with weakened immune function.
Ginger has given you good information, the dip may affect the puppy up to 3 days. If that is the case, the next dip should probably be diluted with at least 25% more water. I am hoping this us only a localized case. It is not all that uncommon but usually seen in digs with compromised immune systems that may be brought on by stress even being in a new home,mfiid,mets can trigger stress and thus the mange.
My question us, have you contacted the breeder you got the pup from? It would not be unlikely that other pups in the litter might be affected. He/she may or may not be honest with you about that.
I would follow your Vet's treatment plan but, as stated, if the puppy seem suck, call your Vet.
Hope all goes well!
Thank you Ginger and Margaret for your responses... I will definately keep an eye on her... I love in NYC and we purchased the puppy at a local puppy retail store.. I spoke with the owner and vet and they confirmed that at least 3 of the 5 puppies they received have mange. All of the puppies were sold within two days of them recieving them and they have not heard back from the other 2 owners (but they said they are pretty sure they have mange as well because it is usually contracted from mother and that would mean the entire litter gets infected) they also claim they did not know that the puppies were infected at the time they were sold. With that said 3 of the puppies went to people who live in the same area as me the other 2 were sold to people who may be using another vet ironically the pet store owner told me that one of the pups was sold to an A list movie star. The store owner also contacted the breeder who they purchase from to let them know of the situation. In any event all parties were very sorry but assured me that this is something they could not have known about prior to the sale because the outbreaks did not surface until a few days after we all had the pups home. Which makes sense based on the info that Margot posted (stress of being brought to a new home) With that said our insurance is covering all of the costs for treatment. Anyway, I Believe that the store is being honest based on the fact that they have taken responsibility and accountability for the situation. So the next steps that our vet recommended is that it may take multiple dips to remedy the mange. The dips are being done at the store we purchased the pup at as they work with our local vet and are trained to treat the dogs for mange. Like I said earlier we are 1st time dog owners so I am listening to them (both the vet and store) and relying on their expertise that we are treating this in the most effective and safest way possible. Keeping that in mind and seeing an improvement in my dogs disposition coupled with the information you guys gave me I feel much better that we are doing the right thing for our dog so thank you for making me more comfortable with how this is being handeled. The next steps is that they told me to do is that the pup should be dipped again next week so I guess my next few questions for you guys is 1) is a week between dips normal 2) will the pup become lathargic again for a few days after the next dip 3) should I seek another opinion from another vet..
Again thank,you for taking the time to advise me on this and I look forward to hearing your opinions on my questions.
My wiener has already been in the same condition as your dog. Our vet gave him 3 sessions of mange injection. He also gave us miconazole nitrate (mycocide) shampoo. My wiener's recovery period was only about 2 weeks.
Thanks -- I will bring it up to my vet.. I haven't heard of an injection for mange so I will bring it up to my vet and see what he says..
OMG......WHAT??? Has no one seen the red flags here???? Jesus!!!!
This is BS and so typical of pet stores and puppy mills!!!! Also considered criminal and against the law...They are lying to you....Trust me, they have done it before and will do it again....This is NOT the first time!!!!....These places know exactly what they are doing...Please, Do not use this pet store for any services for the rest of your life.......This is irresponsible on the store's part & they need to be shut down and/or boycotted!!!
Pet Store puppies are sick because the come from hell holes called "Puppy Mills"....You should see what the parents look like & how they have suffered their entire lives!!!
Get away from this store!!! They know exactly where these dogs are coming from and not only get the purchase price of the puppy, but look how much income they are making for ALL the treatment afterwards.....What a scam!!!! Plus, they are sacrificing the dogs in their care.....You know why the puppies look fine in the window? They are given sugar water to present well while in all honesty, they are already sick!!!! This is common practice....
What about the new owners that can't afford any treatment or don't know what's happening to their dog.....This is criminal and you need to report them to the better business bureau......These people prey on the heart of others...That's how it works.....
Demodectic Mange is NOT treated with dips!!! I don't like the injections either...It's treated with ORAL IVOMEC....The cause of demodectic is a weak immune system because the momma is very ill!!! The dip will further deteriorate this dog & the vaccines at this point can kill it!!!
You must STOP and find another Vet....There is no way to tell which Mange it is without a skin scrape and microscopic view of the mite or eggs.....
I doubt very seriously if this pet store did that!!! Did you see them take a sample and examine it or are they guessing??? If this is sarcoptic mange, yes the dip must be used, but diluted......This Vet should be held liable also, because he/she knows what's going on at this store and is allowing it to happen!!!!
Again, in an already weak puppy, the poisons can kill......You MUST build this puppies immune system FIRST........High quality WET food is your best bet at this point....
Boy, This pisses me off!!!! I have spent everyday of my life (For 10 years) trying to save dogs that no one wants & I've had it!!!!
Opps.....I didn't finish..Got too carried away!!! The result of my 10 years of saving dogs stems from back yard breeders & puppy mills!!!
Sorry Medhelp! I know I will get reprimanded, but the general public needs to go whats going on here, as more dogs/puppies get sacrificed!!!! This must stop!!! BOYCOTT THESE STORES!!!! Karla
Thanks misfits for your response and I understand your frustration with certain vets, pet stores, and puppy mills.. Believe me I've read seen and heard of the horrible conditions and animale abuse that occurs at these places and I'm sure your "preaching to the choir" on this forum -- at least i know you are with me. Without going into to detail I will assure you that my vet and the store I purchased my puppy at are not the ones you are referring to, but in any event for my particular situation it is not relevant because it doesn't change the fact that I have a puppy with mange and I want to get it better through the safest and most effective means... Now, basically your assessment has now brought me back to square one and again i find myself confused with the course of action my vet has suggested we take which is the dip. The previous posters seemed to be in agreement with what I am doing and all the research I have done has supported that. Today my puppies disposition was back to normal which fell right in line with the information I have been given anout the dip. Obviously she is not cured from the outbreak but she seems very healthy and happy. Common sense does tell me that any chemical used to treat anything will come with side effects including an oral or topical. Also from what I read mange is a very common and treatable condition in both puppies and adult dogs but it is by no means a death sentence that is result of only mistreatment and an indicator of some sort of horrendous mistreatment.. With that said I am not happy about this but like I said earlier it is what I have to deal with now for the puppy we have lovingly brought into our home -- so where and who it came from is not relevant. I don't mean to sound uncaring about the overall mistreatment of puppies and for all animals in our society but I just want to stay focused on my puppy for now but please understand I respect and understand your opinion and appreciate your dedication in finding a solution for the mistreatment of animals. I also look at it this way, and that is even if I have the wool pulled over my eyes about the store that I bought the puppy from I can now say that I saved her and brought her into a very loving and caring home that will do everything in our power to make sure she lives in a healthy and happy life!
In any event I will pose some new questions to my vet to make sure I am not hurting my dog with this course of treatment and I also plan on getting a second opinion from another vet.. If anyone has any additional thoughts or advise i am all ears, thanks!
I'm not preaching to you or anyone else....I am offering suggestions to what is going on behind the scenes.....Statically, 95% of ALL pet stores that sell puppies are from Puppy Mills...Maybe you got lucky and are in the 5%! That's possible....
I did not suggest Mange was a death sentence....Mange is very common...I see & treat it on almost a daily basis....However, I have seen dogs die from the treatment!!! Certain breeds are more predisposed to reactions than others.....In our Rescue, we have treated 100s of dogs through 4 different Vets.....For Demodectic Mange, we use oral Ivomec.....Small doses to watch for side effects, then build up to supporting dose....For Sarcoptic Mange, we dip 3 times, two weeks apart and it's done.....We do have another skin scrape after treatment before they are put up for adoption.....
What your describing is exactly what the breeder & seller & store owner want to happen.....They prey on the fact, that once a sick puppy is sold, the new owner will quickly fall in Love & spend a fortune trying to save it, without any complaints to guard against this happening to the next person that comes in
& does the same thing....
They expect this to happen with no remorse, as they will sell more sick puppies tomorrow....Thus, their business continues to operate...That's the sad part.......Good luck, I'm sure things will work out for you....Karla
Well, I have to admit I agree with everything Karla has said but I chose not to go there, yet. Yes, you now have the puppy and buyers that fall in love with these puppies is what keeps them in business. Yes, most pet store puppies come from puppy mills or local, irresponsible breeders. NO responsible breeder sells their dogs at pet stores. I showed dogs for some years and did my share of breeding. My dogs akways went with a health guarantee. That is why I asked if you contacted the breeder. If nothing else, the let shop should be covering the cost of treatment. Yes, the pup most likely git the mite from the mother. Yes, it's immune system is most likely compromised. A pups immune system does not nature until 12 - 18 months of age so there could be other outbreaks. I will say, in all my years having had many dogs and having done breedings, I never had a case of mange, never.
That being said, I question too this Vet "working" with this pet store and question his ethics. Did he actually do a skin scraping? That needs to be done to determine what you are dealing with.
Karla has much more experience regarding mange then I do so I would definitely take heed to her advice. I have read that Ivermectin Is often used.
Knowing this Vet works with this pet store, I think I would seek a new Vet as it appears you are going to keep this puppy. I still think the pet store should be picking up the tab. I can only imagine what you paid.
Please don't think we are getting on your case. If we can educate you, you in turn might be able to educate someone else.
If you are going to buy a pure bred dog, find a reputable breeder, preferably one that shows and tests their dogs for genetic defects. Any reputable breeder will give you a Health guarantee against genetic defects that would make that dog unsuitable as a pet. All pups to pet homes go with Limited Regustration from AKC and are to be spay or neutered.
Good luck and do keep us updated.
Thank you Margot......
I will be coming back here to offer you suggestions on exactly how to heal your puppy.....I figured if you knew everything your dealing with, then you would be better equipped to move forward....This was not a personal attack, I promise.....
YOU can fix this and make your puppy healthy for life.....I must be somewhere for the day, but I will be back....
In the meantime, how bad is this mange & where is it on your girl? Are we talking a few spots or is she covered with an outbreak? When did you notice it? All along or did it happen after the vaccine????
If you will answer the above, I will come back with suggestions...If we don't hear from you again, I won't take the time......
Let me know if your interested.....Karla
thank you misfit and yes I would appreciate your help and advice, and I by no means took your advice as any sort of personal attack a matter of fact I agree whole heartily with your opinions on puppy mills and retail puppy stores. I wanted to adopt a dog from north shore and we had all intentions of doing so but I made the mistake of walking into a store with my kids just to look at some dogs and they fell in love with a puggle puppy and the rest is history. I also wanted to point out that we know the owners of the store and from what we know they are good people but in the back of my mind I knew I could run into trouble buying a dog from them and of course we did. I also wanted to say that the store and the vet has not charged us for anything including dip and initial topical treatment that we gave Taylor (that's her name). Anyway, let me answer your questions:
currently the mange is located on her face only it started around her eyes and we first noticed it 2 days after we brought her home I took Taylor to the vet the day after we got her for shots and an initial checkup the vet gave her a shot and checked her over mentioned nothing of any sign of mange and told us to come back on Jan. 2nd when she turns 3 months for her next set of shots. Then the next day we noticed what we thought was a cut around both eyes as it was oozing, wet with what seemed to be blood. I thought she may have cut herself exploring some tight areas around our house so I brought her back to the vet thinking that was the problem. The vet immediately diagnosed it as Demodetic Mange and gave us a topical solution to apply directly to the affected areas around her eyes 2X per day and he asked that we come back in 3 days. During the 3 days it didn't seem to spread but the infected areas around her eyes became more defined, that's when I started going on the Internet to learn more about mange. Anyway after the 3 days I took her back and noticed that she had small bumps on the top of her head, so I pointed that out to the vet and he just said to continue the topical around the eyes and bring her back in a week. The vet also told me at that time that a few more puggles had been in all with mange and all brought from the same store -- he was not happy about this at all and said he spoke to the store and informed them. Anyway, as the week went on the top of her head got worse so I brought her back to the vet and that's when he immediately ordered the dip and informed me that I take it back to the store and they will do it. I did think it was strange that he didn't do it at his place but he informed me that they are trained and certified to give dips. I dropped her off and they did the dip.. When I picked her up they said she did great and to bring her back again in 1 week for another dip. Nobody told me of any possible side effects so when I brought her home I noticed she was very lathargic.The latter made me concerned and that's when I posted on this forum to get answers. Taylor was lathargic for another day and she was back to normal yesterday and today. Now currently the mange seems contained to her face and everything is dry but her hair is patchy and she has multiple dries scaps but like I said her disposition is back to normal. I felt along her body and I have not noticed any other bumps or anything so I'm hing its contained. I plan on bringing her to the vet tomorrow to discuss the next steps. Sorry for the long winded history but I just wanted to get you up to speed to where I am.
Again, thank you for your help and I look forward to your assessment.
Let's start from the beginning.....
ALL dogs have mange mites.......It's normal....The trouble begins when the mange mites start taking over.....This ONLY happens to weaken animals....All parasites work this way.....Healthy dogs can keep the mites in check, so to speak....Weak, sick ones, cannot.....That's your first clue....
You never said if the Vet did a skin scrape or not to determine which mange you are dealing with....This really is an important first step..Puppies from bad breeding facilities can have either or-- or both! Did the Vet just guess at this? Do you know????
The only way a puppy gets Demodectic Mange is #1, mom was very ill (Which I suspected in the first place) & #2, puppies are ill because of mom being so sick & not being able to nourish them... That's it!!! It's the only way it works!
Sarcoptic mange is different....It is contagious & can be picked up many places....Demodectic is AN IMMUNE System problem....
Now, normal protocol in such a young dog (That is not covered in Mange) is the wait and see approach, ALWAYS....As Margot said, this dog's immune system is not fully functioning for many, many months.....What your describing is localized....
Localized Demodectic mange is not treated....Localized means 4 lesions or under...Anything over 4 spots, then it needs to be treated...Your Vet should know this & should have never turned to a chemical dip at this early stage...I don't understand this!
Dips are NOT -recommended for Toy Breeds or Puppies under 4 months old, ever!!!! The FDA warns against it & this dip is not labeled for use in these cases.... It's on the package insert!! That's why the Vet wouldn't do it for you!!!
If dip is used on other dogs, it should be used the first time at 1/2- 3/4 strength & watch for side effects....NEVER full strength!!! (Because it can cause death!)
Unfortunately, these dips do to the dog what they are made to do to the parasite! It will unavoidably poison your dog!!!
You don't say what the ointment, your using is, so I need to know that...If it's the old fashion Goodwinol, I kinda like the stuff! Many people do not....I DO!
Goodwinol is also an anti-parasitic....You must be careful around the eyes....It can cause skin irritation which is possibly what you saw that makes the mange look worse....You will not be able to see a difference with the ointment for 1 month....No difference at all! In 3 months, it should be gone....Patience is the key unless it starts spreading past 4 lesions.....If the ointment is something else (Another name or kind) , let me have the name....
If your Vet indeed suspected Mange of any kind, the puppy should have never been vaccinated.....Again, it's on the package insert & label...It reads, "ONLY to vaccinate HEALTHY animals!" A dog with mange is clearly not healthy & your vet vaccinating, only further deteriorated an already weak immune system, thus new mange spots broke out or the ones got worse.....
ALso, any mange suspect patient should be given a multi-vitamin.....Your Vet should have recommended one....I prefer the oral liquids....They work the best.....I don't care for the pill ones like Pet-Tabs.....Your Vet has one or more.....I sure don't understand why he didn't offer it...First line of defense is to build the immune system, in a mange dog.....That starts with GREAT food & a vitamin daily........
I know you don't want to hear this, but there sure are alot of red flags here....These can't all be just mistakes!! I'm sorry, I even know all of this & I'm no where near considered a Vet!!! SO, what's going on?? Are they trying to kill your dog so you'll buy another one??? I have to wonder!!!! These palces are evil, I'm not kidding!!!
That's all for now I think....I will be back with suggestions to build a healthy immune system......Again, GREAT food is the key...What do you feed her & what other foods can you find in your area.....Look around at stores and give me some names.....Write them down, so you'll remember....She needs a really, really healthy food & I don't know what is sold in your area....We'll go from there......Karla
Something else: I have always used a Benzoyl/Peroxide Shampoo for any dog with mange....It will clean out the dead mite from the hair follicle & is anti-bacterial which will guard against infection...The one I use is made by "Vet Solutions"..I bought this one from my Vet, but it can be purchased many places online...
I don't understand the WEEKLY dips.....I have never seen/heard of dips any less than 2 weeks apart...Why? You've already killed the live mites with the first dip.....The egg cycle is 2 weeks for new ones to hatch......That's why dips are done at 2 week intervals.......Dips will also will weaken the immune system, so you would/should see more mites breakout.....This ends up a vicious cycle!!!!
Thank you again -- so today I went to a new vet I told them the whole story and I decided to switch over to them as their treatment regime is in line for how you suggested it be handled.. They did a scrape right in front of me and determined it Demodectic Mange.. Like I said they are treating how you suggested and once I heard that I instantaneously said they are my new vets despite any costs I may now have to take on.. Still, pissed at the store I called them and told them I went to a new vet and I want them to treat my puppy.. They were trying to put up a fight with me saying they could do the same thing but I said to them "Listen the fact of the matter is that YOU sold me a pup with mange and I am A) more comfortable having my dog be treated by a vet rather than a retail store B) you still sold me a dog with mange and unless you want me to go to the papers, and etc. you should be responsible for the costs of treatment regardless of what vet is doing it (it also helps that i for reasons I don't want to get into hold some status in the area.. People know me) in any event they agreeded to insure the costs... Now, between us I will definately use my position in life to let people know how bad these types of places really are and once I'm done with this store I WILL make a call to the proper authorities to make sure this doesn't happen but 1st I want them to take care of the fees for my dogs treatment. To be honest I knew puppy stores are bad and I really only wanted to purchase a dog from a place like North Shore but I fell into a trap by bringing my kids and wife to the puppy store and we all fell in love with Taylor and I just thought it wouldn't happen to me and it did... Lesson learned and now I am more of an advocate than ever!
I will continue to keep you posted on her status but I just wanted to thank you again for opening my eyes more to what is going on out there.
Wishing you, your family, and pets a happy holiday season and a healthy new year!
All the best!!!
Well, Look at you!!!! Go-Matt-Go!!! Great job!!!
If you decide to treat down the road, use ONLY oral Ivermectin.....That's your only choice.....I would at least wait 3 months before you make a decision...
If you want to discuss food, let me know.....A low quality, grocery store/discount center dry food WILL NOT cut it.....This dog needs more than that!!!! Any dog with a skin disorder must have high quality WET foods incorporated......In your case, it's even more important because your girl need moisture to flush the chemical toxins from her body.....ALL dry food is not the answer.....
At the very least, check the food your feeding here at: Dogfoodadvisor.com
Find it on their list and MAKE SURE it's good enough for your dog...You won't be sorry, I promise.....
On a side note: I have ONE child, a son.....His name is "TAYLOR!!!"
There you go & Merry Christmas to you and yours.....Keep up the good work.......Blessings......Karla
So glad to read you went to a new Vet and a scraping was done. So glad you will be leaving the other Vet and contacted the store! They will assume the cost? Great. Get it writing.
So sorry it sounded like we jumped on you but it is soft- hearted buyers like yourself that keep these places in business.
I no longer live in a large Metropolitan area but we had pet stores (one being a large chain store in our mall) and feed stores here that sold puppies and kittens. Well, the reputable breeders and rescues took them on through the media, news papers and outside the stores. Eventually, the one large store eventually closed and the other stores stopped the sale if puppies and kittens.
People are akways going to find a "venue" to try to make a buck. Now, they have found Craig's List. Cannot believe the number of ads I see. Our Shekter, like so many, is full of Chihuahuas and mixes, Pitts and mixes. It breaks my heart. I have seen too many litters of very young puppies on cold concrete shivering when they should still be with their mother. Very sad and so unavoidable.
That being said, looks like Taylor has found an excellent home and I wish you many years of enjoyment with him and that he gets over this mange and stays healthy.
Now, want a lecture on having young puppies in the house at Christmas?
Thanks Margot -- yes we are really happy to have her and feel like we saved her from from a very bad situation if the mange came out while she was still back at the store and then sent back to where they got her from.. It scares us to think what they would have done..
Hi Misfits -
I just wanted to give you an update.. Taylor is doing fine with our new vet.. We also decided that the store we purchased her from should be more responsible for how this was handeled so we are going to get an attorney involved and sue them.. Now the store already agreeded to pay for any and all vet costs to treat her mange but we decided that they should also be sued for what we payed to purchase Taylor... Now, it's not the money but it's the point and the more We've educated ourselves on the horrors that go on in this system the more we realized that something should be done to stop it.. Anyway, we figured that during the suing process some red flags will come up about this store and where they get there dogs from and from there who knows what will happen...
I'll keep you posted...
All the best..
Hello to you....Thank you for the update ....It's the parents of these puppies that suffer the most.....The mommas get the worst of it!!!! They endure it their whole lives.....Bless you for taking a stand!!! Yes, I'd love to be kept updated.....Thank you so much..... Happy New Year you you & yours.....Karla