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How to rejuvenate a liver?
Can anyone suggest a a coarse of action, a supplement, herb or substance to reverse the damage done to our livers. Even after SVR, many of us are left with a "horsed-up liver".
Best Answer
I know, I know, the science part is daunting.
If you google hepatitis c medical food I think you might find it, but there is another formula coming out from a different company in a couple of months that is going to do a clinical trial.
That will be a better formula, and you always want the clinical trial.
I think the great thing about the FibroScan is that now there is a verifiable means to test the efficacy of these all-natural (and non-natural) anti-fibrotic protocols.
For instance, what I did was do a FibroScan when I went on the formula and did another one six months later. The second one dropped 3/4 of a stage from the first one. Now, four years later the resorption is pretty complete. F3-F4 four years ago and F0-F1 now and still infected.
But if it doesn't work you will find that out too. Pretty sure it works in most cases, all things being equal.
If you don't find it send me a pm.
Best of luck!
Mike
If you google hepatitis c medical food I think you might find it, but there is another formula coming out from a different company in a couple of months that is going to do a clinical trial.
That will be a better formula, and you always want the clinical trial.
I think the great thing about the FibroScan is that now there is a verifiable means to test the efficacy of these all-natural (and non-natural) anti-fibrotic protocols.
For instance, what I did was do a FibroScan when I went on the formula and did another one six months later. The second one dropped 3/4 of a stage from the first one. Now, four years later the resorption is pretty complete. F3-F4 four years ago and F0-F1 now and still infected.
But if it doesn't work you will find that out too. Pretty sure it works in most cases, all things being equal.
If you don't find it send me a pm.
Best of luck!
Mike
What language was that? :-)
I will put that thru the Bing translator and see what comes out the other end.
Yea, where can one find these HCV medical foods?
Meanwhile we will take the list of stuff down to a health food store that we frequent and see what they have. We have some of it like the CoQ10. But I read somewhere that B vitamins were not good for the liver. I will reconsider that.
Great info, Thanks
I will put that thru the Bing translator and see what comes out the other end.
Yea, where can one find these HCV medical foods?
Meanwhile we will take the list of stuff down to a health food store that we frequent and see what they have. We have some of it like the CoQ10. But I read somewhere that B vitamins were not good for the liver. I will reconsider that.
Great info, Thanks
If you go to Hepatitis page read my post on HCV Metabolomic Study there is more info on the nutritional requirements of HCV patients
Here is the synopsis, but there is more technical info in the first post:
I just read that again and that is a lot of science!
So, in normal English, the HCV virus is an envelope virus. That means that the virions, or infectious viral particles released into the blood from infected cells are coated with lipids to hide them from our immune systems. Interestingly, the release of virions from infected cells often seem to be coordinated in timing, sometimes releasing a trillion virions in a coordinated release.
So, the virus hits the DNA and hijacks lipid metabolism, but also other biosynthetic pathways. The HCV virus flourishes by creating extreme oxidative stress by degrading the mitochondria membrane and hijacking the biosynthetic pathway of our body's major protective antioxidant system, the Glutathione biosynthetic pathway. Glutathione runs many different antioxidant systems in our bodies.
When the study says that the virus hijacks 5-6 biosynthetic pathways, that means that the virus causes a flux of metabolites into those pathways, but strange lipids used by virions spin off (like lysophospholipids) and there is a resulting decrease in biosynthetic end product produced.
The way to correct this is to provide dietary metabolites for increased flow into the affected biosynthetic pathways, while also providing end product metabolites, when available.
The affected pathways illustrated in the Metabolomic study are all SAMe dependent, which is no surprise because SAMe is the most ready methyl donor for biosynthetic pathways and it is involved in roughly 40 biosynthetic metabolic pathways.
So, the theory is that if you provide the metabolites and end-products that are affected directly by HCV infection, then you should be able to reach Redox homeostasis. Redox homeostasis is scientifically defined as the balance between metabolic oxidants, which are generally created in, but escape from the mitochondria where glucose is oxidized into CO2 and water, and reductants, which are antioxidants like glutathione, antioxidant intracellular enzymes, small molecule non-enzymatic antioxidants like Vitamin C and dietary botanical polyphenols, to name a few.
I don't know if that cleared that up, but it is interesting to me, anyway.
Best regards!
Here is the synopsis, but there is more technical info in the first post:
I just read that again and that is a lot of science!
So, in normal English, the HCV virus is an envelope virus. That means that the virions, or infectious viral particles released into the blood from infected cells are coated with lipids to hide them from our immune systems. Interestingly, the release of virions from infected cells often seem to be coordinated in timing, sometimes releasing a trillion virions in a coordinated release.
So, the virus hits the DNA and hijacks lipid metabolism, but also other biosynthetic pathways. The HCV virus flourishes by creating extreme oxidative stress by degrading the mitochondria membrane and hijacking the biosynthetic pathway of our body's major protective antioxidant system, the Glutathione biosynthetic pathway. Glutathione runs many different antioxidant systems in our bodies.
When the study says that the virus hijacks 5-6 biosynthetic pathways, that means that the virus causes a flux of metabolites into those pathways, but strange lipids used by virions spin off (like lysophospholipids) and there is a resulting decrease in biosynthetic end product produced.
The way to correct this is to provide dietary metabolites for increased flow into the affected biosynthetic pathways, while also providing end product metabolites, when available.
The affected pathways illustrated in the Metabolomic study are all SAMe dependent, which is no surprise because SAMe is the most ready methyl donor for biosynthetic pathways and it is involved in roughly 40 biosynthetic metabolic pathways.
So, the theory is that if you provide the metabolites and end-products that are affected directly by HCV infection, then you should be able to reach Redox homeostasis. Redox homeostasis is scientifically defined as the balance between metabolic oxidants, which are generally created in, but escape from the mitochondria where glucose is oxidized into CO2 and water, and reductants, which are antioxidants like glutathione, antioxidant intracellular enzymes, small molecule non-enzymatic antioxidants like Vitamin C and dietary botanical polyphenols, to name a few.
I don't know if that cleared that up, but it is interesting to me, anyway.
Best regards!
Hi Nuhepper,
those are all different things, but all can be found as dietary supplements.
there are some HCV medical foods that contains the whole gamut of nutrients, and a new one is coming out that will have clinical trials - an all-natural, all-GRAS formula.
the purpose would be to see the effect that fulfilled HCV nutritional requirements might have on turning off the trigger for the fibrogenesis process.
If you want more info drop me a pm.
Mike
those are all different things, but all can be found as dietary supplements.
there are some HCV medical foods that contains the whole gamut of nutrients, and a new one is coming out that will have clinical trials - an all-natural, all-GRAS formula.
the purpose would be to see the effect that fulfilled HCV nutritional requirements might have on turning off the trigger for the fibrogenesis process.
If you want more info drop me a pm.
Mike
Great answer!
Much of what you wrote is over my head. But, the gist of it was understood. I read your profile and saw that your are not SVR yet but are still trying. Are you reluctant to try the new treatments that have been so successful? I don't know what LDN is but sure hope it works for you.
You said,
"So, the short answer, is, to reverse the damage done by HCV, it would require plenty of phosphatidylcholine, N-acetyl cysteine for glutathione replacement and all the mitochondrial nutrients - complete B complex, CoQ10, betaine and Folic acid."
Does this mean that (complete B complex, CoQ10, betaine and Folic acid) does contain (phosphatidylcholine, N-acetyl cysteine for glutathione replacement and all the mitochondrial nutrients) ?
Thanks so very much for you contribution. All who read it will find it very valuable.
Ten years ago medical experts said unequivocally that fibrosis is irreversible. What disabused them of that notion is that when they did the clinical trials on Peg INF/Rib they performed pre and post treatment biopsies. What they noticed is that fibrosis staging reversed in even the treatment failures due to the inactivation of the "triggers" for fibrogenesis. The trigger for fibrogenesis is extreme oxidative stress, and it is relieved by the absence of the virus during treatment. When the trigger for fibrogenesis is turned off then proteins called metalloproteinases (zinc metalloproteinases specifically) chomp up and resorb the collagen at a fairly constant rate.
Liver is great tissue for regeneration - the problem is that with collagen (scar tissue) deposition, there is no space to grow new hepatocytes. End stage liver disease is called "shrunken liver" because the liver is filled up with dense scar tissue resembling the sole of an old shoe that takes up all the space in the liver.
So if you have achieved SVR then liver tissue rehabilitation will occur if conditions return to normal, but you can help the process along with supplements.
Liver is great tissue for regeneration - the problem is that with collagen (scar tissue) deposition, there is no space to grow new hepatocytes. End stage liver disease is called "shrunken liver" because the liver is filled up with dense scar tissue resembling the sole of an old shoe that takes up all the space in the liver.
So if you have achieved SVR then liver tissue rehabilitation will occur if conditions return to normal, but you can help the process along with supplements.
Metabolomic studies are a relatively new type of clinical analysis that details the changes to a person's metabolism that disease cause in the host. A Metabolomic study was performed by the University of Dublin in conjunction with Metabolome Inc. on HCV infection. The study involved running HPLC analysis on around 40,000 metabolites of healthy human liver cells (hepatocytes) in the lab, then infecting the cells with HCV and re-running the analysis at 24, 48 and 72 hours after infection. The changes were reflective of the changes to the DNA that HCV core protein and other viral proteins cause to the Genome.
What the study found was that several biosynthetic pathways are disrupted, including the Glutathione pathway, both Phosphatidylcholine pathways (PEMT and CDP-choline), the Methothioadenosine pathway (a native thiol-containg antioxidant system), and Beta oxidation of Fatty acids, including depletion of L-carnitine residues which escort fatty acids to the mitochondria for burning - setting the stage for steatosis, or fatty liver.
The study also found that extreme oxidative stress is further created by HCV replication "nests" or "rafts" which are set up in the mitochondrial envelope at the point of contact with the endosplasmic reticulum. This results in a multiplier effect on the escape of free radicals (Reactive Oxygen Species) from the mitochondria, a condition that is further exacerbated by the depletion of our body's physiological antioxidant system - the glutathione system. Thus, redox homeostasis is radically disrupted and skewed towards extreme oxidative stress.
Extreme oxidative stress is the trigger for fibrogenesis, which means the conversion of quiescent stellate cells in the liver into myofibroblasts that secrete collagen , or scar tissue.
So, the short answer, is, to reverse the damage done by HCV, it would require plenty of phosphatidylcholine, N-acetyl cysteine for glutathione replacement and all the mitochondrial nutrients - complete B complex, CoQ10, betaine and Folic acid.
However, probably not a good idea while on treatment. Before and after, most definitely.
Mike
What the study found was that several biosynthetic pathways are disrupted, including the Glutathione pathway, both Phosphatidylcholine pathways (PEMT and CDP-choline), the Methothioadenosine pathway (a native thiol-containg antioxidant system), and Beta oxidation of Fatty acids, including depletion of L-carnitine residues which escort fatty acids to the mitochondria for burning - setting the stage for steatosis, or fatty liver.
The study also found that extreme oxidative stress is further created by HCV replication "nests" or "rafts" which are set up in the mitochondrial envelope at the point of contact with the endosplasmic reticulum. This results in a multiplier effect on the escape of free radicals (Reactive Oxygen Species) from the mitochondria, a condition that is further exacerbated by the depletion of our body's physiological antioxidant system - the glutathione system. Thus, redox homeostasis is radically disrupted and skewed towards extreme oxidative stress.
Extreme oxidative stress is the trigger for fibrogenesis, which means the conversion of quiescent stellate cells in the liver into myofibroblasts that secrete collagen , or scar tissue.
So, the short answer, is, to reverse the damage done by HCV, it would require plenty of phosphatidylcholine, N-acetyl cysteine for glutathione replacement and all the mitochondrial nutrients - complete B complex, CoQ10, betaine and Folic acid.
However, probably not a good idea while on treatment. Before and after, most definitely.
Mike
There are no nerves in the liver so therefore you will not feel pain in the liver. The sack surrounding the liver can experience inflammation which would feel like liver pain. Also, the liver surrounds (broad description) the gall bladder, and pancreas. The tail of the pancreas is actually tucked under the liver. I think Sandi that you were feeling gall bladder distress, as you said it felt like gas pain. Most likely that is what you had, as various foods, or meds can cause it to react.
The big question!!!
Can cirrhotic livers regenerate. The answer is yes, and I will tell you why.
We have many different categories with liver damage. With cirrhosis there is decompensated and compensated.
Decompensated will not rejuvenate and eventually continue to to deteriorate with the possibility of a transplant. This occurs when the damage is beyond repair.
Compensated is cirrhotic as well, but if early or mild and the damaging agent is stopped, rejuvenation can occur. It really comes down to how much scarring is involved.
You can google decompensated and compensated and see where you are.
I go to the Mayo Clinic for treatment and this is what they have told me. I have early cirrhosis, and since my hep c is gone, and no more alcohol they saw some reversal on my last CT Scan. Go back in Dec. and my Doc said at that time it could show up as an F2-3. They explained that they see this in people that also eat healthy and exercise along with eliminating the toxins such as hep c. They know that I'm a personal trainer and feel that my lifestyle will create the environment for reversal. Not that I'm so great, but meaning anyone that promotes their own health and fitness can do that.
Keep in mind too, that in clinical trials right now they are having success with reversal for people with NASH. (Cirrhosis caused by fatty liver). That can then be then hopefully converted to people with all types of liver disease.
Thought it was interesting as with the advent of hep c cure, livers will be more readily available for people with other liver disease related issues. I joked with them about losing the need for their employment, and they almost agreed.
In medicine, so many new advances are happening on a daily basis. I'm also a cancer survivor and continually read things that are happening regarding new cancer treatments that you wouldn't believe. I do think in our lifetime cirrhosis will be treatable, and curable. The key is to stay as healthy as you possibly can to take advantage of the newest technology coming down the pike.
Sorry to be so long winded, but its important to know that there is hope for all of us with cirrhosis.
Take care and be well. ...Kim..
The big question!!!
Can cirrhotic livers regenerate. The answer is yes, and I will tell you why.
We have many different categories with liver damage. With cirrhosis there is decompensated and compensated.
Decompensated will not rejuvenate and eventually continue to to deteriorate with the possibility of a transplant. This occurs when the damage is beyond repair.
Compensated is cirrhotic as well, but if early or mild and the damaging agent is stopped, rejuvenation can occur. It really comes down to how much scarring is involved.
You can google decompensated and compensated and see where you are.
I go to the Mayo Clinic for treatment and this is what they have told me. I have early cirrhosis, and since my hep c is gone, and no more alcohol they saw some reversal on my last CT Scan. Go back in Dec. and my Doc said at that time it could show up as an F2-3. They explained that they see this in people that also eat healthy and exercise along with eliminating the toxins such as hep c. They know that I'm a personal trainer and feel that my lifestyle will create the environment for reversal. Not that I'm so great, but meaning anyone that promotes their own health and fitness can do that.
Keep in mind too, that in clinical trials right now they are having success with reversal for people with NASH. (Cirrhosis caused by fatty liver). That can then be then hopefully converted to people with all types of liver disease.
Thought it was interesting as with the advent of hep c cure, livers will be more readily available for people with other liver disease related issues. I joked with them about losing the need for their employment, and they almost agreed.
In medicine, so many new advances are happening on a daily basis. I'm also a cancer survivor and continually read things that are happening regarding new cancer treatments that you wouldn't believe. I do think in our lifetime cirrhosis will be treatable, and curable. The key is to stay as healthy as you possibly can to take advantage of the newest technology coming down the pike.
Sorry to be so long winded, but its important to know that there is hope for all of us with cirrhosis.
Take care and be well. ...Kim..
yes I was really worried that the hep had come back when the liver pain I had been experiencing pre treatment but not during treatment came back post treatment but it hadn't and the pain persists although it is less persistant than it was maybe due to now taking decent prescription painkillers!
It is good to read what you wrote about pain in the side. I am 10 weeks EOT, have yet to get 12 week test. But have been experiencing a dull ache under my liver, keep thinking it is just me being obsessive. Kind of feels like gas. But if it is so common, it is good to hear. It hasn't kept me from exercising, but it is hard to ignor sometimes. A heating pad tonight helped a little. Hopefully it goes away eventually as the liver heals. Any very anxious about 12 week test.
sorry can't help you there,I'm not au fait with cirrhosis but I'm sure someone else out there will be more helpful-maybe start a new thread?
My biopsy said early stage of cirrhosis. My Hepatologist says there is no way to rejuvenate the liver. The only thing that can be done is to keep it from getting any worse. That can't be right, Imho.
I quit using Heroin 34 or so years ago and have lived a holistic and wholesome life style ever since. Even the stain of my past mistakes have vanished long ago. It has only been 3 1/2 months since my EOT and there is no dull stabbing pain or even discomfort.
It was a shock to discover this Hepatitis virus late in 2012. But it has been dealt with and now it is on to optimum health as soon as possible. I can't except the notion that one of my principle organs is not going to get better.
You said, "the liver should regenerate itself if it is not cirrhoses"...
I would think that you are right about that. It has been often said on other blogs that the scarring of cirrhosis is not reversible. The threshold that is used more often is compensated and uncompensated.
Please tell me if It is possible to be compensated and cirrhotic at the same time. For sure there are cirrhotics that have SVR'd and got there health back in the coarse of time. Or, would you concur, that if a liver is compensating even though it is scarred up, that it could continue to get better and better with favorable conditions?
Thanks for sharing...
I quit using Heroin 34 or so years ago and have lived a holistic and wholesome life style ever since. Even the stain of my past mistakes have vanished long ago. It has only been 3 1/2 months since my EOT and there is no dull stabbing pain or even discomfort.
It was a shock to discover this Hepatitis virus late in 2012. But it has been dealt with and now it is on to optimum health as soon as possible. I can't except the notion that one of my principle organs is not going to get better.
You said, "the liver should regenerate itself if it is not cirrhoses"...
I would think that you are right about that. It has been often said on other blogs that the scarring of cirrhosis is not reversible. The threshold that is used more often is compensated and uncompensated.
Please tell me if It is possible to be compensated and cirrhotic at the same time. For sure there are cirrhotics that have SVR'd and got there health back in the coarse of time. Or, would you concur, that if a liver is compensating even though it is scarred up, that it could continue to get better and better with favorable conditions?
Thanks for sharing...
OK. Thanks for the link of the 15 ways and the CoQ10 suggestion. I will look at both things.
actually,if you're referring to that dull ache stabbing heavy liver pain-yes I do get that,everyone seems to-odd as you apparently have no nerves in your liver but I think there are nerves around it that seem to get affected or maybe it's neuropathic pain.
Not mentioned on nan's list but worth researching, CoQ10 -- a substance normally absorbed from a healthy diet but that becomes harder to get without supplementation as we get older. HCV specifically damages the mitochondria of the liver and CoQ10 is necessary for mitochondrial health. If you decide to try this, it's a little pricey and you should consider getting the most bioavailable form, such as Ubiquinol.
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despite post treatment issues,my liver has never given me any problems since attaining svr.
I have read that 80% of patients receiving interferon therapy become gluten intolerant and that this doesn't always resolve afterwards so I have cut gluten and dairy from my diet as have others.