anyone every experience allergice reaction to milk thistle? I did
thanks guys
yes bali - im a carb watcher - lol - i think my main stumbling block with diet is the exercise part -in the past 6 months or so ive lost quite a bit of weight (50 lbs) and i think its not of my doing - ( cirrhosis ? ) - of course it seems to be muscle more so than fat - i have a bad back and neuropathy and walking is about as much exercise i can tolerate - im grateful i can still do that
I'm sorry to hear tx didn't work. And I wish you the best.
Silymarin taken orally at high dosages causes gastrointestinal problems.
One of the key problems is absorption.
Here is a trial sponsored by NIH looks like they are recruiting
Silymarin @ 280mg or 700mg twice a day + green tea
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01018615
" i also have fatty liver disease and hard to control diabetes "
Instead of Silymarin have you tried a lowcarbohydrate diet to better your
diabetes and fatty liver ?
Excessive carbohydrate consumption is one of several characteristics of the American diet that contributes to abnormal lipid profiles and fatty liver disease. If your carbohydrate intake exceeds your energy needs, the excess is converted to triglycerides in your liver through a process called lipogenesis. A 2011 study in "The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition" demonstrated that carbohydrate restriction reduces your liver's storage of triglycerides--and the risk of fatty liver--more effectively than simple caloric restriction
http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2011/03/02/ajcn.110.007674.abstract
im not treating now - ive tried peg intron pegasys and infergen - i had about 2 yrs documented svr with peg intron but the virus came back - then tried pegasys which resulted in a very slow response and was switched to infergen daily but experienced breakthrough - gasto sent me to transplant center - hepatologist there at first said no more inf / riba - meld ~ 12 - on 2nd visit he seemed open to 3x tx - i feel i have to try 3x but i dont want to fail - i dont think i can "afford"
to fail - i also have fatty liver disease and hard to control diabetes - thats mostly why i do the milk thistle
ps - thanks all
silimaryin/silibinin are a very interesting class of compounds with promising anti-fibrotic, anti-carcinogenic and HCV-RNA suppressive properties. However, as far HCV patients it's important to not confuse in-vitro results, intravenous in-vivo and oral in-vivo.
The promising in vivo results on HCV RNA suppression have *only* been observed with IV-SIL, which as Bali points out is a heavy-duty drug whose administration involves hours a day hooked up to a drip IV. IV-SIL, which is water soluble is also chemically distinct from the compound available as an oral supplement, which is not.
A recent study investigating multiple oral doses of silimaryn (using the high-quality Legalon variant made by Madaus ) found "no clinically meaningful reductions from baseline serum transaminases or HCV RNA titer" notwithstanding dosage as high as 2.1g a day. See
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19841158
Note in particular the lack of effect on HCV RNA VL documented in Figure 3. The IV-SIL results *are* very promising, but you just can't get there by taking oral supplements,
but you can get it in the usa - although the benefits are greater with injectable - oral still works and its relatively inexpensive
i read your post - sounds like an endorsment to me ---" Silymarin and its efficacy for NASH ,primary biliary cirrhosis, autoimmune hepatitis , akute viral hepatitis, Hep B , Hep C , mega dosis of Silymarin orally , Silibin IV (legalon-sil) for Hep C and as rescue therapy for slow or non responders as well as Silibin IVs as a lead in for SOC and prevention therapy of reinfection after transplant."
there are many trials ongoing with it - there are many other conditions not mentioned in your post like diabetes and iron overload that respond to its use --- so its good for you - it doesnt hinder tx but actually helps it - and theres no known proof showing not to take it during tx - just because a dr doesnt recommend it means nothing to anybody but him - some say no to it because of overtaxing the liver - ha - then they turn around and start prescribing all kinds of meds for sides complications etc
Old news !
Read my post above Silibin IVs are only approved in Austia in combination with SOC
for proven previous non responders , require several weeks of clinic stay , many hrs of IV per day
and are very expensive.
b
1. alt levels mean nothing
2.they didnt dose high enough in halt c - dont base opinions on 1 study - like anything else
3.read coerics links
4. nevermind ill do it 4 u
5.Legalon-SIL downregulates HCV RNA as well as HCV core and NS5A proteins in CON1 cells
from Jules: many studies in the past few years conducted by Peter Ferenci have shown IV silibin to have significant antiviral efficacy against HCV (see link below). So for patients who are peg/rbv nonresponders and for that matter responders as well IV silibin should be researched in combination with telaprevir and boceprevir as it might have a particular benefit for prior null responders and partial responders and perhaps most importantly for patients who are contraindicated for peg/rbv but could combine IV silibin with an HCV protease.
LS downregulated HCV RNA (core region) in a dose-dependent and also a time-dependent manner in CON1 cells. The HCV RNA (core region) level was decreased 21% following 6 h treatment with LS 200 μmol/L compared with the DMSO control (P < 0.05, Figure Figure2A).2A). HCV RNA (core region) levels were further decreased after 24 h treatment by both LS 50 μmol/L (55% decrease, P < 0.05) and 200 μmol/L (88% decrease, P < 0.01) when compared with vehicle (DMSO) control (Figure (Figure2A).2A). The HCV RNA (NS5A region) level was also decreased 43% following 6 h treatment with LS 200 μmol/L compared with DMSO control (P < 0.01 Figure Figure2B),2B), and was also further decreased after 24 h treatment by both LS 50 μmol/L (62% decrease, P < 0.01) and 200 μmol/L (87% decrease, P < 0.01) (Figure (Figure2B).2B). LS 200 μmol/L also downregulated HCV core (by 57%) and NS5A protein (by 49%) after 24 h of treatment although this was statistically significant only for HCV core protein, P < 0.05). This effect was more pronounced following 48 h of treatment: LS 200 μmol/L decreased HCV NS5A protein expression by 65% (P < 0.05), while LS significantly decreased HCV core protein expression in a dose-dependent manner (52% reduction at 50 μmol/L and 85% reduction at 200 μmol/L P < 0.01) (Figure (Figure33).
Rest assured I am very much aware of the latest research on Silymarin taken orally
or by IV as Legalon-Sil. Most of those studies take place in Europe and I get quaterly
updates. As a matter of fact this year`s March issue of the German Liver Magazine
"Lebenszeichen" (sign of life) has 3 big double page spreads about Silymarin and its
efficacy for NASH ,primary biliary cirrhosis, autoimmune hepatitis , akute viral hepatitis,
Hep B , Hep C , mega dosis of Silymarin orally , Silibin IV (legalon-sil) for Hep C and as
rescue therapy for slow or non responders as well as Silibin IVs as a lead in for
SOC and prevention therapy of reinfection after transplant.
b
It does NOT have an effect on VL, and it does NOT help liver enzymes. The article says that.
I'm sure the "people who ate bad mushrooms" forum would appreciate your information. But as far as killing the HCV virus it does nothing. If people think it does them good go for it. My only point is the HALT-C article by Cutler the OP posted states
1. No beneficial effect of silymarin was found on ALT levels (serum alanine aminotransferases) – an enzyme often elevated with liver injury.
2. No beneficial effect of silymarin was found on Hepatitis C virus RNA levels.
the fact that its labeled as an antiviral and a protease inhibitor proves it - granted its not as effective treating with soc - i guess you didnt bother exploring the links provided at the beginning of this thread that will address your skepticism so i wont waste my time doing so - also again its liver friendly and tx friendly
id worry more about the air we breathe and the food we eat taxing the liver
injectable extract has saved more than a few peoples lives after ingesting toxic mushrooms - aka fulminant hepatitis always fatal until now
"the liver taxed by too many things blasting it at once "
There is definately truth to that. It is not just about if any particular supplement
has shown any benefit but it is also very much about dosages like everything else.
Too much of anything can harm you.
My motto on tx and now post is "In case of a dought through it out "
Good luck with your second round.
b
I am something of a vitamin junky and never get the colds and bugs that go around my home and office. One of the things I have been taking daily is milk thistle. I just started my second round of trt this week, and my gastro guy said to stop the milk thistle during treatment - something about not wanting the liver taxed my too many things blasting it at once (my words and interpretation, not theirs).
I did tx, thanks for the great advice.
Yes silymarin injectables have show to have anti viral properties. But never have been proven to lower VL as far as I know, please supply a study that says it does. By the way where do you go for silymarin drips,or injections ? #pointless
go figure huh - or is your leading hepa more leading than mine - lol
yeah you said svr - thing is you have to tx to accomplish that
hmmm thats what i was told by - u guessed it - another leading hepatologist
I don't think that there is any clinical proof that ML aids in achieving SVR.
I take a number of supplements all of which were medically okayed prior to starting the trial I am in. The only thing that I was told not to take were corticosteriods. I took supplements before tx and I was glad to take them during tx in order to offer my liver what support I could. As far as meds staying in the liver as long as possible - I am reminded of when I read so much on here that one needed to take riba w/ a high fat food. I tried that and didn't do well - the study nurse assured me that the riba dosage was based on a normal diet.
It's tricky making one's way through tx and can be even tougher if we read about something here and suddenly think that we aren't doing all we can to help ourselves. One of the great things about this forum is how quickly one gets called to substantiate medical claims. I sure learned that early on ;).
I said SVR.
hmmm take the advise of a leading hepatologist or some anonymous person off the internet, let me think. After much consideration I'll stick with Everson's advice, thanks though.
they have done clinical trials with silymarin - it does have antiviral properties - the injectable form is far more effective than the pills - there is no proof that it benefits or hinders inf/riba tx
Someone please post a clinical study that says taking ML during tx increases SVR. Taking unregulated herbs while on tx...because you "think" it will help, maybe not so smart.
I wanted those meds in my liver around my liver as long as possible. Taking an herb that artificially increases the livers ability to clean, sounds risky.
So on this thread we have two of the countries leading hepatologists Deb's Dr. J, and my doc Everson telling people don't take it during tx. And armchair docs on a forum saying go for it.
FWIW, it's my understanding that ALA is the precurser of glutathione and it is cheaper than glutathione.