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Can Ehrlichia resolve without treatment?
About Ehrlichia .... need some advice here.
Several years ago, as my Lyme/babs treatment was concluding successfully, I got a dog tick bite that gave me Ehrlichia, complete with some fever and confusion and most particularly speckles all over, particularly on limbs ... meaning small petechial hemorrhages -- tiny bruises where blood vessels ruptured under the skin, lots and lots of them.
The doc gave me doxy to treat the Ehrlichia, but I didn't take it ... I was still dealing with a systemic fungal infection from the yeast-based probiotics I took while being treated for Lyme and babs, and was afraid to make that worse with more antibiotics.
After ~4-7 days (hard to remember now!), I started to feel better and the spots started to fade, and I never did take the abx.
Here's my question: does Ehrlichia go dormant, or can the immune system hammer it into oblivion without antibiotics? I'm feeling strong enough now to do the antibiotics, but before I dial up the doc for an appointment, I'm wondering if it's possible my body killed the bugs already.
Can't find anything in the literature about the persistence of Ehrlichia ...
Any ideas? Thanks!
Several years ago, as my Lyme/babs treatment was concluding successfully, I got a dog tick bite that gave me Ehrlichia, complete with some fever and confusion and most particularly speckles all over, particularly on limbs ... meaning small petechial hemorrhages -- tiny bruises where blood vessels ruptured under the skin, lots and lots of them.
The doc gave me doxy to treat the Ehrlichia, but I didn't take it ... I was still dealing with a systemic fungal infection from the yeast-based probiotics I took while being treated for Lyme and babs, and was afraid to make that worse with more antibiotics.
After ~4-7 days (hard to remember now!), I started to feel better and the spots started to fade, and I never did take the abx.
Here's my question: does Ehrlichia go dormant, or can the immune system hammer it into oblivion without antibiotics? I'm feeling strong enough now to do the antibiotics, but before I dial up the doc for an appointment, I'm wondering if it's possible my body killed the bugs already.
Can't find anything in the literature about the persistence of Ehrlichia ...
Any ideas? Thanks!
I had bone marrow biopsy for it 2 years ago. It came back fine but it wasn't a Lyme literate hematologist at the time. I think they look to see if Lyme is in your bone marrow. Now after 2 years my WBC is up.
But all my labs change dramatically month to month. I suspect long term untreated Lyme does this but not positive.
But all my labs change dramatically month to month. I suspect long term untreated Lyme does this but not positive.
I have got the same thing, very low wbc in all categories especially neutrophils.
We thought it was caused by erliciha at first. Then that was cured (according to doctor, and I do trust him) but the wbc were still low, so then we thought it was the antibiotics and I stopped them. That was months ago and they are still just as low as before. So now I don't know what is the cause.
You are right that having low wbc stalls the recovery, I came to a stop and for almost a year made no progress.
I think, it could either be bart, which I do still have, or else some extremely resistant strain of erlichia. My lyme doc said he is not toerribly worried about it, but I am still bothered as there must be some reason for it.
Do you know exactly what thye will test in the bone marrow biopsy? I am wondering if I should ask for this too. Please let me know what you can find out about it! And good luck, I hope they can fix this problem, it is worrying, isn't it?
We thought it was caused by erliciha at first. Then that was cured (according to doctor, and I do trust him) but the wbc were still low, so then we thought it was the antibiotics and I stopped them. That was months ago and they are still just as low as before. So now I don't know what is the cause.
You are right that having low wbc stalls the recovery, I came to a stop and for almost a year made no progress.
I think, it could either be bart, which I do still have, or else some extremely resistant strain of erlichia. My lyme doc said he is not toerribly worried about it, but I am still bothered as there must be some reason for it.
Do you know exactly what thye will test in the bone marrow biopsy? I am wondering if I should ask for this too. Please let me know what you can find out about it! And good luck, I hope they can fix this problem, it is worrying, isn't it?
Right now I am dealing with decline in WBC, especially neutrophil granulocytes.
My LLMD made no comment what to do about it apart from email me the notices of concern about my WBC trends lower again almost every week and asked me how I feel. I think they wanted to see me in person to discuss about it.
I was supposed to see my LLMD last week but my LLMD office cancelled appointments due to hurricane Sandy. I am trying to see him next week. *cross my fingers for end of gas shortage soon*
Meanwhile I saw my hematologist for regular checkup, and now she wanted to do bone marrow biopsy and followed by neupogen injections. I am going for it just to see what turns up and I am hoping neupogen injections will help. LLMD's office is aware about it.
I am getting the impression the hematologist doubts that the antibiotics are behind the decline in WBC due to the timing.
Ehlichia is the one I see often that causes low WBC. However I was on doxycycline for almost one year prior to formal dx of Lyme disease, then again on doxycycline for two months at higher dose by different LLMD.
I wonder if whatever cause the decline in WBC/neutrophil granulocytes may be the reason for the stalemate in my improvements.
Is it possible I have persisting Ehrlichia that does not respond to tetracycline class antibiotics? Or it is possible something else may have been overlooked that would explains the problems with WBC.
By the way I was never tested for Ehrlichia unless HGE is ehrlichia? I tested negative for HGE. Can't they come up with better name for it! It is hard to spell!
Thanks for any insight you may have.
My LLMD made no comment what to do about it apart from email me the notices of concern about my WBC trends lower again almost every week and asked me how I feel. I think they wanted to see me in person to discuss about it.
I was supposed to see my LLMD last week but my LLMD office cancelled appointments due to hurricane Sandy. I am trying to see him next week. *cross my fingers for end of gas shortage soon*
Meanwhile I saw my hematologist for regular checkup, and now she wanted to do bone marrow biopsy and followed by neupogen injections. I am going for it just to see what turns up and I am hoping neupogen injections will help. LLMD's office is aware about it.
I am getting the impression the hematologist doubts that the antibiotics are behind the decline in WBC due to the timing.
Ehlichia is the one I see often that causes low WBC. However I was on doxycycline for almost one year prior to formal dx of Lyme disease, then again on doxycycline for two months at higher dose by different LLMD.
I wonder if whatever cause the decline in WBC/neutrophil granulocytes may be the reason for the stalemate in my improvements.
Is it possible I have persisting Ehrlichia that does not respond to tetracycline class antibiotics? Or it is possible something else may have been overlooked that would explains the problems with WBC.
By the way I was never tested for Ehrlichia unless HGE is ehrlichia? I tested negative for HGE. Can't they come up with better name for it! It is hard to spell!
Thanks for any insight you may have.
Thank you! Your reasoning is, as usual, spot on. I am indeed in the sifting and considering stage, and your remark that the understanding of Ehrlichia has been developing does put into focus the hodge-podge of stuff I've been reading.
I am fairly certain I will end up treating, since I'm more concerned about unquantifiable and unknown sequelae of an infection than I am about a bit of upset during treatment. My big problem before with the yeast-based probiotic was what put me off the whole project, but I will avoid the yeast-based stuff and be careful to schedule the acidophilus-type (i.e., non-yeast) probiotics away from the meds dosing.
I had walled off this issue from the rest of life for quite a while, not having the bandwidth to deal with it, but feel now that I have a game plan -- check in with my vet friend; read up on current Ehlichia literature a bit; figure out which of my stable of long-unseen docs to go bother; and forge ahead.
This is progress! Feeling better about it already. Thank you!
I am fairly certain I will end up treating, since I'm more concerned about unquantifiable and unknown sequelae of an infection than I am about a bit of upset during treatment. My big problem before with the yeast-based probiotic was what put me off the whole project, but I will avoid the yeast-based stuff and be careful to schedule the acidophilus-type (i.e., non-yeast) probiotics away from the meds dosing.
I had walled off this issue from the rest of life for quite a while, not having the bandwidth to deal with it, but feel now that I have a game plan -- check in with my vet friend; read up on current Ehlichia literature a bit; figure out which of my stable of long-unseen docs to go bother; and forge ahead.
This is progress! Feeling better about it already. Thank you!
Jackie, for what it's worth, I took minocycline (almost identical to doxy) for 2 years straight and my guts were fine. I've had atrocious guts most of my life - was falsely diagnosed with inflammatory bowel disease it was so bad. The minocycline actually made things imporove a bit! (bumped off some of the bad bacteria), you just need to take plenty of bacterial probiotics.
I understand your natural fear, but doxy is just another antibiotic. The fact it is broad spectrum doesn't actually make it more or less likely to give you horrible floral imbalances. Actually Tindamax and azithromycin are statistically worse form this POV, for example. I've had clostridium difficile, I got that from a 3 week course of erythromycin - there's no logic to this type of thing, really.
I think the main question is if you are psychologically ready to take a longish course of abx yet. It requires courage, doesn't it? You may remember I'm on an abx break and using herbs at the mo, I don't think I could face abx yet.
If you can't, maybe you should just wait a while till one day you decide, Right, I'm ready.
BTW some major discoveries regarding erlichia have been made in recent years and lots of info on the web is out of date. That mainly explains the contradictions. You should probably ask your vet friend if she can find out the most recent info, so you can discard the rest.
The discussion on to treat or not to treat was partly derived from the fact that it does resist courses of antibiotics sometimes so some concluded, why try to treat it if you can't cure it?
Also, dogs cannot tell vets how damned tired and awful they feel. Vets just look at blood tests and conclude doggy is probably OK.
Erlichia is not symptomless. Having low BWC count means you get colds and flu and other infections more often, more severely, and for a longer time.
I understand your natural fear, but doxy is just another antibiotic. The fact it is broad spectrum doesn't actually make it more or less likely to give you horrible floral imbalances. Actually Tindamax and azithromycin are statistically worse form this POV, for example. I've had clostridium difficile, I got that from a 3 week course of erythromycin - there's no logic to this type of thing, really.
I think the main question is if you are psychologically ready to take a longish course of abx yet. It requires courage, doesn't it? You may remember I'm on an abx break and using herbs at the mo, I don't think I could face abx yet.
If you can't, maybe you should just wait a while till one day you decide, Right, I'm ready.
BTW some major discoveries regarding erlichia have been made in recent years and lots of info on the web is out of date. That mainly explains the contradictions. You should probably ask your vet friend if she can find out the most recent info, so you can discard the rest.
The discussion on to treat or not to treat was partly derived from the fact that it does resist courses of antibiotics sometimes so some concluded, why try to treat it if you can't cure it?
Also, dogs cannot tell vets how damned tired and awful they feel. Vets just look at blood tests and conclude doggy is probably OK.
Erlichia is not symptomless. Having low BWC count means you get colds and flu and other infections more often, more severely, and for a longer time.
Thank you for your kind and wise words. I seem to be in a psychological recovery of sorts, crawling out of the long, dark Lyme-related tunnel I was in for so long, and now regaining my sense of being able to again cope with whatever life (and the docs) throw at me.
I agree with your inclination to use your Manual ... I have for years toted my Merck Manual around as a text for basic orientation to medical issues and a measure for the so-called mainstream medicine positions -- so I understand and appreciate your approach. J.
Tally ho!
I agree with your inclination to use your Manual ... I have for years toted my Merck Manual around as a text for basic orientation to medical issues and a measure for the so-called mainstream medicine positions -- so I understand and appreciate your approach. J.
Tally ho!
You are quite welcome. So sorry you went through all that and I understand you not wanting to go through any more. FYI, Doxy is the drug of choice and then if it doesn't work they can use Rifampicin but there isn't a lot of data on that drug. I use my mega book Manual of Clinical Micro because I trust it as opposed to all the junk you read on line. There are some good websites but it is good you are leary and unfortuately have learned the hard way in having been through alot (way too much). Take it easy and make a good judgement when you feel clear of mind , rested and can deal with it.
mkh9
mkh9
Good idea. I bought a big bag of those empty gel caps when I realized I had to split a capsule of astragalus into two parts, since if I take one full one all at once, it wipes me out -- too strong for me.
But since the doxy is already in its own capsule, you mean to double-capsule it?
But since the doxy is already in its own capsule, you mean to double-capsule it?
FYI, My friend who sees Schaller recently gave me a secret that works. On Amazon, and other places, you can buy empty gel caps, vegan if you like. You put the meds in the empty capsule. I sometimes double it since I get ulcers.
I had no problem with doxy or any abx after doing this.
I had no problem with doxy or any abx after doing this.
Thanks for your message. I think I am leery of the doxy because I have read it can be very hard on the gut, and I have a touchy gut, always have had, and don't want the aggravation. I used to get tetracycline when I was a kid (for earaches) and don't remember any problems, so maybe I'll it the doc up for something like that after explaining my touchy gut. I really don't get sick very often, so it's going back a lot of years to remember any of my prior reactions.
I've been reading up on ehrlichia, and the literature is strangely skewed in its approach -- some of it just doesn't talk about the possibility of persisting infection w/o treatment, and the rest of it says varying things. It reads kind of like the Lyme literature -- contradictory and unclear.
I didn't take the doxy right after the Ehrlichia diagnosis because I was already messed up really bad with the yeast-based probiotic I had been on, and my gut was suffering terribly, along with the rest of me. I was so bloated I looked like I was about 4 months pregnant, along with the brain fog, loose teeth, inflamed eyes, etc. REALLY don't want (don't have the time) to go there again -- and frankly it scares me.
I have to decide which doc I'll take my little problem to ... and a lot of that will be driven by my past experience with them in how well they listened to me.
So that's my hang up -- not wanting to rock the boat, after having been in a real Nor'easter with Lyme and babs. But time to yank up my hip-waders and be a big girl. :)
Thanks again! Much appreciated.
I've been reading up on ehrlichia, and the literature is strangely skewed in its approach -- some of it just doesn't talk about the possibility of persisting infection w/o treatment, and the rest of it says varying things. It reads kind of like the Lyme literature -- contradictory and unclear.
I didn't take the doxy right after the Ehrlichia diagnosis because I was already messed up really bad with the yeast-based probiotic I had been on, and my gut was suffering terribly, along with the rest of me. I was so bloated I looked like I was about 4 months pregnant, along with the brain fog, loose teeth, inflamed eyes, etc. REALLY don't want (don't have the time) to go there again -- and frankly it scares me.
I have to decide which doc I'll take my little problem to ... and a lot of that will be driven by my past experience with them in how well they listened to me.
So that's my hang up -- not wanting to rock the boat, after having been in a real Nor'easter with Lyme and babs. But time to yank up my hip-waders and be a big girl. :)
Thanks again! Much appreciated.
Jackie,
Doxy is just another form of Tetracycline. Did you read some bad side effects using that antibiotic? I have had Tetra once and Doxy once. The first time I almost fainted after a shot the second time I got bad vertigo. So, I don't if they were related or not. From what I read 75% of cases are subclinical and 25% can become more serious. Usually, these are in immuocompromised patients. They are zoonotic as was stated and can infect animals or humans. My opinion is that since you had symptoms you should get treated. Yougottobekidding already stated that it gets into your white blood cells, platelets monocytes. and lymphocytes. The other thing I would add is it doesn't just infect dogs, deer and other animals can be infected as well. Both animals and humans get the organism via a tick bite. If you want more details I can specify which symptoms etc. But you probably can find this on your own. It is just a matter of deciding what to do regarding taking another antibiotiic.
regards,
mkh9
Doxy is just another form of Tetracycline. Did you read some bad side effects using that antibiotic? I have had Tetra once and Doxy once. The first time I almost fainted after a shot the second time I got bad vertigo. So, I don't if they were related or not. From what I read 75% of cases are subclinical and 25% can become more serious. Usually, these are in immuocompromised patients. They are zoonotic as was stated and can infect animals or humans. My opinion is that since you had symptoms you should get treated. Yougottobekidding already stated that it gets into your white blood cells, platelets monocytes. and lymphocytes. The other thing I would add is it doesn't just infect dogs, deer and other animals can be infected as well. Both animals and humans get the organism via a tick bite. If you want more details I can specify which symptoms etc. But you probably can find this on your own. It is just a matter of deciding what to do regarding taking another antibiotiic.
regards,
mkh9
Oh, excellent data! It happens that a dear, longtime friend of mine is a small-animal vet, and I hadn't even thought of calling her ... but I will! She's very wise and practical both.
Most of the things I've been reading online in medical-type publications or websites are vague about whether treatment is ALWAYS the right thing to do, and those that imply treatment should be done are vague about treatment. Aggh.
I'm a little leery of doxy, just from things I've read about it, but I can deal with it if I have to.
Thanks again -- !
Most of the things I've been reading online in medical-type publications or websites are vague about whether treatment is ALWAYS the right thing to do, and those that imply treatment should be done are vague about treatment. Aggh.
I'm a little leery of doxy, just from things I've read about it, but I can deal with it if I have to.
Thanks again -- !
I had Erlichia for 26 or so years before getting diagnosed and treated.
It suppresses production of white blood cells and makes the ones you do have work inefficiently, so it is definitely immunosuppressive and will certainly not clear up by itself.
The blood test produces false positives (old infection) and false negatives (immunosuppression)
It lives inside the white blood cells.
It reduces platelet count, so if your platelets are low (and you bleed a long time before clotting, or have heavy periods for example) then you'll know it's active. Globulin levels are elevated when it is active.
It is basically a dog disease and I discovered by chance that any veterinarian knows ALL about erlichia. So if you cannot face another doctor, which I can fully understand (been there several times in my past) ... do you know any friendly vets you could talk to?!!!
My doc used minocycline but apparently doxy works too. The old one, tetracycline, is apparently the best if you're just aiming to kill erlichia alone. That's according to vets. Meanwhile the CDC thinks tetracycline is NOT good.
As far as your own research goes, you'll get the best info from sites about animals.
here's one
http:/ /www .veterinarypartner. com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2103&S=1&EVetID=0
The CDC thinks you need 7 to 14 days of abx, the vet websites think a month at least.
In persistent cases you add rifampicin as well.
It suppresses production of white blood cells and makes the ones you do have work inefficiently, so it is definitely immunosuppressive and will certainly not clear up by itself.
The blood test produces false positives (old infection) and false negatives (immunosuppression)
It lives inside the white blood cells.
It reduces platelet count, so if your platelets are low (and you bleed a long time before clotting, or have heavy periods for example) then you'll know it's active. Globulin levels are elevated when it is active.
It is basically a dog disease and I discovered by chance that any veterinarian knows ALL about erlichia. So if you cannot face another doctor, which I can fully understand (been there several times in my past) ... do you know any friendly vets you could talk to?!!!
My doc used minocycline but apparently doxy works too. The old one, tetracycline, is apparently the best if you're just aiming to kill erlichia alone. That's according to vets. Meanwhile the CDC thinks tetracycline is NOT good.
As far as your own research goes, you'll get the best info from sites about animals.
here's one
http:/ /www .veterinarypartner. com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2103&S=1&EVetID=0
The CDC thinks you need 7 to 14 days of abx, the vet websites think a month at least.
In persistent cases you add rifampicin as well.
You were there for me and it made a big difference.
We all need to be there for each other, good and bad times.
Hopefully more good ;)
We all need to be there for each other, good and bad times.
Hopefully more good ;)
We can relate but you have to. We don't want to see you sicker.
Sending hugs to you now!
Sending hugs to you now!
Ooo! that 'best answer' thing seemed to fill itself in. All your answers are consistent with each other, so should all be tagged as 'best'.
I hear all of you, and it's what I was suspecting is the right thing to do: see the doc, take the meds. But I just don't wanna!!! Soooooo tired of docs! :)
I hear all of you, and it's what I was suspecting is the right thing to do: see the doc, take the meds. But I just don't wanna!!! Soooooo tired of docs! :)
There are some cases of persistant infection but there are other antibiotics if it doesn't clear up. I would go through the course and wait a while and see if you labs come back normal.
mkh9
mkh9
I hear you. I'd just as soon avoid the doc, the doc's office, the doc's bill, AND the abx .... well, you understand. :) Thx
A couple months of oral abx sounds like a cake walk compared to late stage Lyme treatment. I'd say, "Go for it."
Thanks! That's exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. Been ignoring this, time to deal with it!
Hi JackieCalifornia,
I just read my manual of clinical microbiology regarding whether Ehrlichia is self limiting or not. I don't see so far anything that states that you should go without treatment. It stated that without treatment the morbidity and mortality rates go up. So, I would say you need to get treated. Doxy is a good drug for this bug but they mention other antibiotics if the doxy doesn't clear it. Especially, since you waited a while.
mkh9
I just read my manual of clinical microbiology regarding whether Ehrlichia is self limiting or not. I don't see so far anything that states that you should go without treatment. It stated that without treatment the morbidity and mortality rates go up. So, I would say you need to get treated. Doxy is a good drug for this bug but they mention other antibiotics if the doxy doesn't clear it. Especially, since you waited a while.
mkh9
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