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Is this tick bite or lyme disease bite and when did it occur?
I know there isn't a expanding rash that you get from a infected tick. And I know I didn't see a tick stuck in my skin when I first noticed this at 6:00 am today. All this means is that there still could be a 10% chance. And that I would have to wait out if an expanding rash does occur. Which would indicate a 90% chance that I will get lyme disease.
Even if it doesn't I still have to worry about that 10%.
But here is the story. At 9:00 pm yesterday I walked through the grass. The lawn was cut. So I didn't do tick checks as I usually do. Got home, I took off my socks as I usually do. I didn't notice the bite, or any rashes, but then again I didn't really check. At about 1:00 am, I took a sleep to 6:00 am. I started itching my ankle, felt a little pain. I wondered what it was. I noticed a rash. I wonder what it came from. Maybe I got bit while I was sleeping. Anyways I did research at american lyme disease foundation website. Everything seems perfectly lined up, 1, it occurs in my state often, 2, it often occurs at this time of year. 3. They love to bite in the area where my rash is, back of the ankle.
So I have a few questions, wouldn't I have known if I had a rash two days ago in this area. Reason why I ask is the website says if the tick remains in my skin for 36 hours it could infect me. So I want to know if this bite could have happened 36 hours ago and I didn't notice it. I'm not sure if that is likely because I keep my socks off when I'm in the house. I do work on the grass, but when I'm working I have to wear pants for my particular job. I worked Sunday. But that doesn't necessarily mean if I remember walking with just shorts on in my own lawn. But I do without a doubt know that I walked Tuesday on a lawn with shorts on today at 9 pm.
Anyways, I'm getting to tired right now and anxiety driven to explain myself 100%. So I'll just upload a picture, so you can tell me what kind of bite this. What are my chances, or if it's likely this type of bite just occurred recently. Is it it a bite that looks like it occurred 36 hours ago?
Even if it doesn't I still have to worry about that 10%.
But here is the story. At 9:00 pm yesterday I walked through the grass. The lawn was cut. So I didn't do tick checks as I usually do. Got home, I took off my socks as I usually do. I didn't notice the bite, or any rashes, but then again I didn't really check. At about 1:00 am, I took a sleep to 6:00 am. I started itching my ankle, felt a little pain. I wondered what it was. I noticed a rash. I wonder what it came from. Maybe I got bit while I was sleeping. Anyways I did research at american lyme disease foundation website. Everything seems perfectly lined up, 1, it occurs in my state often, 2, it often occurs at this time of year. 3. They love to bite in the area where my rash is, back of the ankle.
So I have a few questions, wouldn't I have known if I had a rash two days ago in this area. Reason why I ask is the website says if the tick remains in my skin for 36 hours it could infect me. So I want to know if this bite could have happened 36 hours ago and I didn't notice it. I'm not sure if that is likely because I keep my socks off when I'm in the house. I do work on the grass, but when I'm working I have to wear pants for my particular job. I worked Sunday. But that doesn't necessarily mean if I remember walking with just shorts on in my own lawn. But I do without a doubt know that I walked Tuesday on a lawn with shorts on today at 9 pm.
Anyways, I'm getting to tired right now and anxiety driven to explain myself 100%. So I'll just upload a picture, so you can tell me what kind of bite this. What are my chances, or if it's likely this type of bite just occurred recently. Is it it a bite that looks like it occurred 36 hours ago?
Thanks for the note. Life is pretty stressful for everybody these days, so keeping it at a low level, esp. on a help site like this one, is important. Lyme is hard on everyone, and some especially have as tough a time emotionally as physically, due to the Lyme bacteria messing with the endocrine system.
Life and Lyme are hard enough already, so we try to keep it fairly mellow here. Thank you for understanding that.
Life and Lyme are hard enough already, so we try to keep it fairly mellow here. Thank you for understanding that.
Sorry I wrote too much for you. I feel bad. It was more like I was trying to argue with you. Then trying to be nice to you. I know what I have to do. I'm aware of what Lyme is, and that's the important thing. Sorry.
"Your doc will determine that." -JackieCalifornia
Well, what do you think the estimate will be? Give or take? You can give me a range if you want. I think you have experience to tell me some of the costs at least. Or is this a problem with the health care system, they never want to give you the cost and just charge you what they want? Similar to a dentist and teeth cleaning. They just charge you more because hey, your teeth was covered with extra plaque, and I guess you'll have to trust us. You'll have to take our word for it.
Anyways, not complaining. Sometimes you have to pay it, but I wonder why it hurts to get a figure on the cost here?
"Your description may indicate Lyme, and since no one here is medically train, you would need to go to a qualified MD for evaluation. "
-JackieCalifornia
The bite mark, hmm okay. And my description and how I was worried last year about Lyme? I remember the story here about the guy mowing his lawn and he never walked into the woods or anything but he still got Lyme. I do however remember the story about the girl that did walk through long grassy areas viewing/touring colleges with her daughter. And they both got Lyme.
""Or maybe because you know how dangerous it is?" -///- I have no idea what you mean by this. " -JackieCalifornia
I mean you want me to get tested for Lyme disease. And you told me the story about the insane asylums and untreated syphilis. How irreversible damage is done by the brain etc, etc, etc. But you already answered the question. You just want to help and according to you "my description might indicate Lyme" That story actually happened so you have the complete right to tell me. And I want you to tell me the possible dangers.
"-///- I am not medically trained, as I have said here many times. This site has a disclaimer not to rely on posts here as medical advice. If you do not want your questions responded to, then consider not posting them. " -JackieCalifornia
I'm not saying you are. I don't get why he keep posting LEGAL disclaimers, I'm not out to get you sued! It's not even possible! I understand this! I understand that it's not a substitute for real medical testing. And when did I say I didn't want my questions unanswered?
If you wonder why I ask questions, I'm being thorough, (and the whole reason is why, is that you want me to go see a MD, but I have to remain cautious!)
Because also you said this:
"That's a big part of why docs are so clueless about Lyme: nobody reacts the same to Lyme and its co-infections, due partly to one's own immune system, and partly to what set of infections you have. Don't expect to feel like anyone else -- it just doesn't happen. " -JackieCalifornia
That I can't trust doctors as they might deny treatment, medical testing, etc, etc. If they don't get the answers they deserve! And also posts above say medical doctors rely on scientist that did improper testing of nymph ticks, and CDC and some doctors releasing improper medical facts and also minimized the worry about Lyme.
And you also said this:
"What those docs did not know was that Lyme bacteria have tricks that most other bacteria do not: they hide in slimy shields they create inside the body, called biofilms, which the human immune system cannot 'see through' to locate or penetrate to kill the Lyme bacteria. Doxy does NOT penetrate biofilms. " -JackieCalifornia
And this:
"So-called mainstream docs and the CDC don't understand or credit this, and the Lyme bacteria are happy to hide out in the biofilms, reproducing slowly as the doxy passes by, and then they resume getting comfy inside you. Result: you still have Lyme, despite having the 'standard' treatment. " -JackieCalifornia
You said you had to be tested out by 20 doctors. Can you honestly say some of your advice and experience can't be useful? And doctors are perfect that figure everything out! COME ON! Here, quit with the fricken legal disclaimers about doctors being gods or something. Anyways, I'm not angry. I'm just saying, I'm sick of hearing things about policies, and legal disclaimers. And I appreciate your advice. And yes, I'm going to take your word over a doctors HOW ABOUT THAT, HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH. I am substituting it over a doctors advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WOULD NOT HOWEVER take it over testing results and how to treat those testings. Actually however, I would still remain cautious over the accuracy of the test results, although, if they are doing the tests correctly. But that part I understand is above your knowledge. Or maybe...
What I'm doing is taking your advice here. And let doctors do the medical testing. I however am not going to take a doctors advice on how you get Lyme, or how rare it is. You see the difference here? Go see a doctor, yes, but if I report what I said in the first post. He might not take it seriously.
Anyways the real issue is this. I should ask a MD about this (at least I'm keeping a record of this just in case) and this is the problem:
"Different MDs have different views of how serious Lyme is or is not. There are no magic words. Do what you would do for any ailment: "Doctor, for ___ years, I have been having these symptoms: ________________________." " -JackieCalifornia
Yes since you been to 20 different doctors, I think it's more than just saying oh my symptoms are this! Because that is the problem. I don't have any symptoms to report? As you said, my immune system might be suppressing it. So now what should I do? To convince a medical doctor to get tested out for Lyme? That's not good enough. Anymore advice, and yes I do appreciate it. Are you saying maybe I should just go with the first post I wrote here? Print out the picture, remember what I said. Would that work possibly? It's a risk. I don't trust doctors, all of this, just to convince them to give me a Lyme test. Some where in the near future if something were to occur. If I make enough money, I could possibly chance it.
Anyways, do you think I should go outright and say I think I have Lyme because of this and this? If he tries to argue with me, you can only get it in the woods, the bulls eye rash. I will show him the evidence of people reporting how they never saw a bulls eye rash. They never remember going into the woods, or what not.
Well, what do you think the estimate will be? Give or take? You can give me a range if you want. I think you have experience to tell me some of the costs at least. Or is this a problem with the health care system, they never want to give you the cost and just charge you what they want? Similar to a dentist and teeth cleaning. They just charge you more because hey, your teeth was covered with extra plaque, and I guess you'll have to trust us. You'll have to take our word for it.
Anyways, not complaining. Sometimes you have to pay it, but I wonder why it hurts to get a figure on the cost here?
"Your description may indicate Lyme, and since no one here is medically train, you would need to go to a qualified MD for evaluation. "
-JackieCalifornia
The bite mark, hmm okay. And my description and how I was worried last year about Lyme? I remember the story here about the guy mowing his lawn and he never walked into the woods or anything but he still got Lyme. I do however remember the story about the girl that did walk through long grassy areas viewing/touring colleges with her daughter. And they both got Lyme.
""Or maybe because you know how dangerous it is?" -///- I have no idea what you mean by this. " -JackieCalifornia
I mean you want me to get tested for Lyme disease. And you told me the story about the insane asylums and untreated syphilis. How irreversible damage is done by the brain etc, etc, etc. But you already answered the question. You just want to help and according to you "my description might indicate Lyme" That story actually happened so you have the complete right to tell me. And I want you to tell me the possible dangers.
"-///- I am not medically trained, as I have said here many times. This site has a disclaimer not to rely on posts here as medical advice. If you do not want your questions responded to, then consider not posting them. " -JackieCalifornia
I'm not saying you are. I don't get why he keep posting LEGAL disclaimers, I'm not out to get you sued! It's not even possible! I understand this! I understand that it's not a substitute for real medical testing. And when did I say I didn't want my questions unanswered?
If you wonder why I ask questions, I'm being thorough, (and the whole reason is why, is that you want me to go see a MD, but I have to remain cautious!)
Because also you said this:
"That's a big part of why docs are so clueless about Lyme: nobody reacts the same to Lyme and its co-infections, due partly to one's own immune system, and partly to what set of infections you have. Don't expect to feel like anyone else -- it just doesn't happen. " -JackieCalifornia
That I can't trust doctors as they might deny treatment, medical testing, etc, etc. If they don't get the answers they deserve! And also posts above say medical doctors rely on scientist that did improper testing of nymph ticks, and CDC and some doctors releasing improper medical facts and also minimized the worry about Lyme.
And you also said this:
"What those docs did not know was that Lyme bacteria have tricks that most other bacteria do not: they hide in slimy shields they create inside the body, called biofilms, which the human immune system cannot 'see through' to locate or penetrate to kill the Lyme bacteria. Doxy does NOT penetrate biofilms. " -JackieCalifornia
And this:
"So-called mainstream docs and the CDC don't understand or credit this, and the Lyme bacteria are happy to hide out in the biofilms, reproducing slowly as the doxy passes by, and then they resume getting comfy inside you. Result: you still have Lyme, despite having the 'standard' treatment. " -JackieCalifornia
You said you had to be tested out by 20 doctors. Can you honestly say some of your advice and experience can't be useful? And doctors are perfect that figure everything out! COME ON! Here, quit with the fricken legal disclaimers about doctors being gods or something. Anyways, I'm not angry. I'm just saying, I'm sick of hearing things about policies, and legal disclaimers. And I appreciate your advice. And yes, I'm going to take your word over a doctors HOW ABOUT THAT, HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH. I am substituting it over a doctors advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WOULD NOT HOWEVER take it over testing results and how to treat those testings. Actually however, I would still remain cautious over the accuracy of the test results, although, if they are doing the tests correctly. But that part I understand is above your knowledge. Or maybe...
What I'm doing is taking your advice here. And let doctors do the medical testing. I however am not going to take a doctors advice on how you get Lyme, or how rare it is. You see the difference here? Go see a doctor, yes, but if I report what I said in the first post. He might not take it seriously.
Anyways the real issue is this. I should ask a MD about this (at least I'm keeping a record of this just in case) and this is the problem:
"Different MDs have different views of how serious Lyme is or is not. There are no magic words. Do what you would do for any ailment: "Doctor, for ___ years, I have been having these symptoms: ________________________." " -JackieCalifornia
Yes since you been to 20 different doctors, I think it's more than just saying oh my symptoms are this! Because that is the problem. I don't have any symptoms to report? As you said, my immune system might be suppressing it. So now what should I do? To convince a medical doctor to get tested out for Lyme? That's not good enough. Anymore advice, and yes I do appreciate it. Are you saying maybe I should just go with the first post I wrote here? Print out the picture, remember what I said. Would that work possibly? It's a risk. I don't trust doctors, all of this, just to convince them to give me a Lyme test. Some where in the near future if something were to occur. If I make enough money, I could possibly chance it.
Anyways, do you think I should go outright and say I think I have Lyme because of this and this? If he tries to argue with me, you can only get it in the woods, the bulls eye rash. I will show him the evidence of people reporting how they never saw a bulls eye rash. They never remember going into the woods, or what not.
You say: "Well, let's say I take the path you are suggesting. * I ultimately have to make enough money. How much money will it cost me to get tested? Then treatment?" -///- Your doc will determine that. If you do not have enough money, there are charities that may be able to help you pay for doctor appointments, testing and medication. One is called LymeTAP and another is the LymeLight Foundation. Look for them online.
"Let's say I go above the health care system. If that's possible. What is the exact treatment? If they refuse to give treatment." -///- Usually antibiotics, but which antibiotics depends on what infections you have. This is not a do-it-yourself project. There are other treatments I have heard of, but I do not know the details.
"Would you say I need to get tested for Lyme if it wasn't for that picture." -///- Your description may indicate Lyme, and since no one here is medically train, you would need to go to a qualified MD for evaluation.
"Or do you say it because you think everyone should get tested for Lyme?" -///- What would that gain me? I don't get paid for posting or typing here. I do so because I had Lyme and know how miserable it can be.
"Or me specifically because I was worried." -///- I am not medically trained, as I have said here many times. This site has a disclaimer not to rely on posts here as medical advice. If you do not want your questions responded to, then consider not posting them.
"Or maybe because you know how dangerous it is?" -///- I have no idea what you mean by this.
"Let's say I get down to business anyways. What is the exact script I should tell the doctor to get the treatment? Exactly what do I say?
I can go to regular doctor. And ask. But I have no idea what to say. Do I say I think I have lyme or something" -///- Different MDs have different views of how serious Lyme is or is not. There are no magic words. Do what you would do for any ailment: "Doctor, for ___ years, I have been having these symptoms: ________________________."
"Let's say I go above the health care system. If that's possible. What is the exact treatment? If they refuse to give treatment." -///- Usually antibiotics, but which antibiotics depends on what infections you have. This is not a do-it-yourself project. There are other treatments I have heard of, but I do not know the details.
"Would you say I need to get tested for Lyme if it wasn't for that picture." -///- Your description may indicate Lyme, and since no one here is medically train, you would need to go to a qualified MD for evaluation.
"Or do you say it because you think everyone should get tested for Lyme?" -///- What would that gain me? I don't get paid for posting or typing here. I do so because I had Lyme and know how miserable it can be.
"Or me specifically because I was worried." -///- I am not medically trained, as I have said here many times. This site has a disclaimer not to rely on posts here as medical advice. If you do not want your questions responded to, then consider not posting them.
"Or maybe because you know how dangerous it is?" -///- I have no idea what you mean by this.
"Let's say I get down to business anyways. What is the exact script I should tell the doctor to get the treatment? Exactly what do I say?
I can go to regular doctor. And ask. But I have no idea what to say. Do I say I think I have lyme or something" -///- Different MDs have different views of how serious Lyme is or is not. There are no magic words. Do what you would do for any ailment: "Doctor, for ___ years, I have been having these symptoms: ________________________."
Well, let's say I take the path you are suggesting. * I ultimately have to make enough money.
How much money will it cost me to get tested? Then treatment?
Let's say I go above the health care system. If that's possible. What is the exact treatment? If they refuse to give treatment.
Also another very important question. Would you say I need to get tested for Lyme if it wasn't for that picture. Or do you say it because you think everyone should get tested for Lyme? Or me specifically because I was worried. Or maybe because you know how dangerous it is?
Let's say I get down to business anyways. What is the exact script I should tell the doctor to get the treatment? Exactly what do I say?
I can go to regular doctor. And ask. But I have no idea what to say. Do I say I think I have lyme or something?
How much money will it cost me to get tested? Then treatment?
Let's say I go above the health care system. If that's possible. What is the exact treatment? If they refuse to give treatment.
Also another very important question. Would you say I need to get tested for Lyme if it wasn't for that picture. Or do you say it because you think everyone should get tested for Lyme? Or me specifically because I was worried. Or maybe because you know how dangerous it is?
Let's say I get down to business anyways. What is the exact script I should tell the doctor to get the treatment? Exactly what do I say?
I can go to regular doctor. And ask. But I have no idea what to say. Do I say I think I have lyme or something?
Everyone is different -- some of us have a strong immune response, others not so much, but it's hard to tell because a strong immune response might make you feel worse than a weak immune response -- like loading a battle field with a lot of troops -- it's going to make a lot of noise and cause a lot of uproar ... but if the immune response is weak, you might not get much of feeling lousy and Herxing as your body fights off the infection(s). How many years? Everyone is different. That's part of what confuses the docs. That's why a Lyme specialist is so important.
There is no one single path for Lyme and its coinfections. It's like a big pot of stew: how it tastes depends on what you put in it. With Lyme, how lousy you feel depends on how many co-infections you have and how strong your immune system at suppressing the symptoms. That's a big part of why docs are so clueless about Lyme: nobody reacts the same to Lyme and its co-infections, due partly to one's own immune system, and partly to what set of infections you have. Don't expect to feel like anyone else -- it just doesn't happen.
And don't wait to get really really ill before seeking treatment. The longer you wait, the more damage the infections do and the harder they are to kill -- at some point it may be irreversible, I dunno. Lyme is in the syphilis family. Go read up on untreated syphilis and see what horrible things that does.
And when I say 'horrible', I mean it. The insane asylums of the pre-antibiotics era were full of people with untreated syphilis, because there were no antibiotics to treat it effectively. The syphilis bacteria invade and damage your cells (including your BRAIN) irreversibly. I have wondered if the upswing in Alzheimers may be due to Lyme -- who ever heard of Alzheimers 30 years ago?
You ask how many years will it take for Lyme to 'undoubtedly' show itself? No one really knows ... and you really REALLY don't want to find out. Take the antibiotics and get well. It's a much better game plan for life.
There is no one single path for Lyme and its coinfections. It's like a big pot of stew: how it tastes depends on what you put in it. With Lyme, how lousy you feel depends on how many co-infections you have and how strong your immune system at suppressing the symptoms. That's a big part of why docs are so clueless about Lyme: nobody reacts the same to Lyme and its co-infections, due partly to one's own immune system, and partly to what set of infections you have. Don't expect to feel like anyone else -- it just doesn't happen.
And don't wait to get really really ill before seeking treatment. The longer you wait, the more damage the infections do and the harder they are to kill -- at some point it may be irreversible, I dunno. Lyme is in the syphilis family. Go read up on untreated syphilis and see what horrible things that does.
And when I say 'horrible', I mean it. The insane asylums of the pre-antibiotics era were full of people with untreated syphilis, because there were no antibiotics to treat it effectively. The syphilis bacteria invade and damage your cells (including your BRAIN) irreversibly. I have wondered if the upswing in Alzheimers may be due to Lyme -- who ever heard of Alzheimers 30 years ago?
You ask how many years will it take for Lyme to 'undoubtedly' show itself? No one really knows ... and you really REALLY don't want to find out. Take the antibiotics and get well. It's a much better game plan for life.
Oh you are saying that doesn't prove anything. And my immune system could be oppressing the symptoms? Hmmm, okay. So how many years will it undoubtedly show itself?
"My last response above says: "In your situation, I would definitely find an experience[d] Lyme MD and take it from there."
What about that response does not answer your question? "
Because you don't provide why. I just updated this thread saying nothing has happened since that bite mark. No symptoms of anything. But you still say I should see a Lyme MD. There must be some reason as to why you recommend that. I'm just asking why. I'm not saying you are wrong.
What about that response does not answer your question? "
Because you don't provide why. I just updated this thread saying nothing has happened since that bite mark. No symptoms of anything. But you still say I should see a Lyme MD. There must be some reason as to why you recommend that. I'm just asking why. I'm not saying you are wrong.
My last response above says: "In your situation, I would definitely find an experience[d] Lyme MD and take it from there."
What about that response does not answer your question?
What about that response does not answer your question?
"Please see a competent Lyme doctor -- I am unable to follow your comments, and this is just a volunteer discussion board, with no trained medical personnel that I am aware of. In your situation, I would definitely find an experience Lyme MD and take it from there. Best wishes to you --"
I know what it is, you don't have to make a legal statement. I'm just curious do you think I need to see a Lyme MD after a year, based on that picture above?
I know what it is, you don't have to make a legal statement. I'm just curious do you think I need to see a Lyme MD after a year, based on that picture above?
Please see a competent Lyme doctor -- I am unable to follow your comments, and this is just a volunteer discussion board, with no trained medical personnel that I am aware of. In your situation, I would definitely find an experience Lyme MD and take it from there. Best wishes to you --
Ah, what do you mean? It's a been a year. Why would I need to see a Lyme doc? Oh because my immune system is going to suppress it? So I want see it until 10 to 20 years later?
Yes, there has been an update on my cough, it has gone away. Not sure what medication to take. But I took a cough suppressant. It's working. But now my hands and arms are shaking. Weird.
Yes, there has been an update on my cough, it has gone away. Not sure what medication to take. But I took a cough suppressant. It's working. But now my hands and arms are shaking. Weird.
It's very possible to have been bitten by a Lyme tick and not know it. I never saw a tick or had a rash of any kind, but I sure had Lyme and babesiosis (also carried by Lyme ticks). It's also possible to have one of the co-infections (like babesiosis) but not have Lyme. And if you have a strong immune system, it may be able to keep infection(s) suppressed so you don't have some of the over-the-top symptoms that others of us may have.
About your cough, it's good that you're wondering about it -- unfortunately, I don't have any insight into your symptoms, but encourage you to keep looking for an MD who can account for the cough and anything else that you notice, even at a low level of misery.
These infections show up in different ways, so don't try to fit your symptoms exactly into what you read. If you're not feeling right, then please pursue it -- and starting with a Lyme doc might not be a bad idea: a Lyme doc will tell you if it's not Lyme and likely have ideas of what it could be, but a doc who *doesn't* understand Lyme will likely not have it on his/her list of possibilities.
Don't give up till you are well! and let us know how you do, okay? Best wishes --
About your cough, it's good that you're wondering about it -- unfortunately, I don't have any insight into your symptoms, but encourage you to keep looking for an MD who can account for the cough and anything else that you notice, even at a low level of misery.
These infections show up in different ways, so don't try to fit your symptoms exactly into what you read. If you're not feeling right, then please pursue it -- and starting with a Lyme doc might not be a bad idea: a Lyme doc will tell you if it's not Lyme and likely have ideas of what it could be, but a doc who *doesn't* understand Lyme will likely not have it on his/her list of possibilities.
Don't give up till you are well! and let us know how you do, okay? Best wishes --
I sort have an unrelated issue. Since the community in general is laxed when it comes to support. If any of you could jump on there. Or look in my profile. I'm trying to solve a cough problem, which is driving me crazy. I don't know what to buy.
"Sore throat (min cough) turned into Min sore throat (max cough)"
It's kind of driving me crazy.
"Sore throat (min cough) turned into Min sore throat (max cough)"
It's kind of driving me crazy.
Well, it's almost been a year later. And I haven't really gotten sick. I don't think I have Lyme. But thanks for all your information, I'm more self aware. I'm more careful when I walk through the grass and woody areas. And I check to see if I got any bugs on me.
"Nymphs are primarily responsible for Lyme Disease in humans, so it's disturbing that they make such definitive conclusions about transfer of Lyme from nymphs to humans based on a single study of adult ticks on mice. Also, they only waited a month to see if
the mice were infected. If they'd waited 2-3 months, perhaps some of the mice with short tick attachments would have also turned up sick. "
Yeah, that is disturbing to me, it doesn't surprise me. I rather websites (with medical information) that talk about lyme disease, they will list those studies. And have asterisk * on websites mentioning the fact that not having a bull's eye rash doesn't prove you didn't get it.
Although I just proved with that picture above. Since I didn't get sick and it's a year later. That a mark like that isn't necessarily a lyme disease bite.
"Nymphs are primarily responsible for Lyme Disease in humans, so it's disturbing that they make such definitive conclusions about transfer of Lyme from nymphs to humans based on a single study of adult ticks on mice. Also, they only waited a month to see if
the mice were infected. If they'd waited 2-3 months, perhaps some of the mice with short tick attachments would have also turned up sick. "
Yeah, that is disturbing to me, it doesn't surprise me. I rather websites (with medical information) that talk about lyme disease, they will list those studies. And have asterisk * on websites mentioning the fact that not having a bull's eye rash doesn't prove you didn't get it.
Although I just proved with that picture above. Since I didn't get sick and it's a year later. That a mark like that isn't necessarily a lyme disease bite.
You are quite welcome. Everyone here, including me, has been through some version of what you are going through, so you are not alone.
About being emotional etc.: Lyme messes with the hormones, including those that regulate the emotions. When Lyme is fully treated, all goes back to normal. Been there, done that. I would go ahead and cry, because it's a release of emotions and tension: Mother Nature's way of sorting things out.
You say: "I have been running a below normal fever 96.7 97,7 is this normal?" When Lyme messes with the hormones, that often includes body temp.
You say: "I think that my head will stop feeling dizzy after I get off of the doxy?" I don't know. I was never on doxy, and anyway, everyone is different. Maybe half of us with Lyme also have other infections the 'Lyme' tick brings along, and those co-infections have their own sets of symptoms that are hard to parse from Lyme. A good Lyme doc will know.
If you're having trouble with memory, start a list now and write down every symptom you have from now till you see the doc. Just a running list will do, doesn't have to be how many times you had the symptoms or not, I don't think. Memory is sometimes affected by Lyme, so making some notes of symptoms and how you feel through the days before seeing the doc is a good thing to do ... and then take a copy of the list to the appointment.
I hope you don't have Lyme, but you sound like you've got something, so a good doc will figure it out. The reason to see a Lyme doc is that nonLyme docs will likely not know how to determine if you have LYME.
"Everyone says I read to much and that is why I am worried but I tell them that I would rather know everything I can about this disease then not know so I can make the right choices while dealing with this." Good for you!
"Also my doctor s as I'd that she thinks that the tick did not go deep enough firsts layer of skin only so I should be alright? I don't believe that this is true." I totally agree with you. Lyme is a relatively new disease, and the docs who first identified it a couple decades ago didn't know everything, but they keep insisting that their initial list of symptoms and way to treat Lyme is perfect already. Not very humble in the face of Mother Nature, are they.
You say: "I did find a doctor that advertises that he treats lyme and other tick disease. I will call him Tomororw for an appointment also." That's what I would do. Remember to keep your antennae up, tho, because there are lots of docs who don't really understand Lyme but think that they do. I would go to the appointment as you plan, and see what the doc says. Every doc who treats Lyme patients will claim to be a Lyme specialist, but that doesn't mean the doc really knows what he's doing: Lyme is a new disease and many docs just don't get the whole concept, but that's not unusual when a new disease arrives. Mother Nature, she is a tricky witch.
Take care, and keep us posted.
About being emotional etc.: Lyme messes with the hormones, including those that regulate the emotions. When Lyme is fully treated, all goes back to normal. Been there, done that. I would go ahead and cry, because it's a release of emotions and tension: Mother Nature's way of sorting things out.
You say: "I have been running a below normal fever 96.7 97,7 is this normal?" When Lyme messes with the hormones, that often includes body temp.
You say: "I think that my head will stop feeling dizzy after I get off of the doxy?" I don't know. I was never on doxy, and anyway, everyone is different. Maybe half of us with Lyme also have other infections the 'Lyme' tick brings along, and those co-infections have their own sets of symptoms that are hard to parse from Lyme. A good Lyme doc will know.
If you're having trouble with memory, start a list now and write down every symptom you have from now till you see the doc. Just a running list will do, doesn't have to be how many times you had the symptoms or not, I don't think. Memory is sometimes affected by Lyme, so making some notes of symptoms and how you feel through the days before seeing the doc is a good thing to do ... and then take a copy of the list to the appointment.
I hope you don't have Lyme, but you sound like you've got something, so a good doc will figure it out. The reason to see a Lyme doc is that nonLyme docs will likely not know how to determine if you have LYME.
"Everyone says I read to much and that is why I am worried but I tell them that I would rather know everything I can about this disease then not know so I can make the right choices while dealing with this." Good for you!
"Also my doctor s as I'd that she thinks that the tick did not go deep enough firsts layer of skin only so I should be alright? I don't believe that this is true." I totally agree with you. Lyme is a relatively new disease, and the docs who first identified it a couple decades ago didn't know everything, but they keep insisting that their initial list of symptoms and way to treat Lyme is perfect already. Not very humble in the face of Mother Nature, are they.
You say: "I did find a doctor that advertises that he treats lyme and other tick disease. I will call him Tomororw for an appointment also." That's what I would do. Remember to keep your antennae up, tho, because there are lots of docs who don't really understand Lyme but think that they do. I would go to the appointment as you plan, and see what the doc says. Every doc who treats Lyme patients will claim to be a Lyme specialist, but that doesn't mean the doc really knows what he's doing: Lyme is a new disease and many docs just don't get the whole concept, but that's not unusual when a new disease arrives. Mother Nature, she is a tricky witch.
Take care, and keep us posted.
Thank you so very much for your concern and info,I will know what doctor I will be going to this Monday.I broke down to my wife last night with my wife and cried like a baby from worrying so much.is this normal? I did fell better after I LET it out and told my wife everything I have learned on here and now she is scared but has faith in the Lord that he will take care of this,I pray she is right , I have been running a below normal fever 96.7 97,7 is this normal? I think that my head will stop feeling dizzy after I get off of the doxy?,I hope anyway. If the doctor wants me to stay on it I will.Everyone says I read to much and that is why I am worried but I tell them that I would rather know everything I can about this disease then not know so I can make the right choices while dealing with this. Also my doctor s as I'd that she thinks that the tick did not go deep enough firsts layer of skin only so I should be alright? I don't believe that this is true.I did find a doctor that advertises that he treats lyme and other tick disease.I will call him Tomororw for an appointment also. I will keep you posted on what they have to s as y and plan for me after I find out,Thank you again.
Welcome to MedHelp Lyme -- just saw your post.
Good for you for pursuing what is ailing you -- you are seeing (as most of us have) that many of the docs are taught that Lyme is rare and hard to get, and their favorite motto is usually "We Don't Have Lyme Around Here." Uh, wrong.
From what I read (and I'm not a doc), doxycycline can be the right treatment when a Lyme infection is very new (and assuming any other infections your tick brought can be killed by doxy). When you are finished with the doxy, then if you don't feel totally normal again, I would find a Lyme disease specialist for a second look and possibly more and different antibiotics.
Lyme disease specialists can be any kind of doc (mine was trained as a rheumatologist), and the important difference is how they understand Lyme. If you go to the ILADS website (International Lyme and Associated Disease Society), they can refer you to a Lyme specialist near you (there is a link on their website for referrals, but those docs don't have a test or anything to know if they are 'good' docs, but it's a place to start, and you might get lucky).
You can also put a new post up here saying "Need LLMD near [Toledo, Ohio]" or wherever you are, and someone here may have a recommendation, but it will be sent to you by private message, since we usually do NOT put our Lyme docs' names in public, so that the medical board doesn't hassle them for not following the supposedly 'standard' doxy treatment.
That you got a bullseye rash is something to tell any future docs you see about this ailment. Not all of us get a rash or see a tick, so you have good evidence.
You say, "I called the next day and requested a llmd or an infectious doctor. They are referring me to an infectious doctor." Unfortunately LLMDs and infectious disease (ID) docs do not see the Lyme world in the same way at all. The ID docs tend to think Lyme is no big deal, and they often don't test for possible infections that the 'Lyme' ticks carry about half the time, and if you still have symptoms after your (probably 10 day) course of doxy, ID docs may say that it's just 'post-Lyme syndrome', because the doxy has killed the Lyme and your immune system is just continuing to act like you are infected, but you are not.
Uh, no. That approach is the official one for ID docs, but an LLMD will probably see it all quite differently. This is the most complicated thing about Lyme treatment (besides being sick): the medical community is split, with the ID docs believing Lyme is not serious and a couple weeks of doxy will kill it for sure, but they are not up to date with the fact that Lyme can and does hide in the body in areas where the immune system and doxycycline will not find and kill the bacteria.
In contrast, an LLMD knows that Lyme can and does hide, and that doxy may well not be the right meds, both against Lyme bacteria hiding in slimy areas in the bodies called 'biofilms', and because other infections the 'Lyme' bacteria often carry in addition to Lyme do not respond to doxy at all.
'LLMD' is not a degree or title, just patient slang for an MD who thinks bigger thoughts about Lyme.
--->>> If you are not totally well when the doxy prescription is finished, then I would find a Lyme specialist without delay. Lyme will not just go away if doxy doesn't do the job, and if you have any co-infections, those usually need separate meds.
It's part of Lyme to feel scared and worried -- Lyme messes with the body's emotions, and when Lyme is properly treated and goes away, you should feel better.
You say, "I hope since I receive treatment on the seventh day after the bite that I will be ok. D you think I will?" Maybe -- there's no way to know before you finish the meds and see how you feel.
You say, "I am scared and worried at this" -- that's part of Lyme: it messes with your endocrine system. And Lyme is a freaky thing too, so it's natural to be concerned. You are doing the right things by asking question and thinking things through.
Hang on, and let us know what you do and how you feel, ok? Best wishes.
... and PS, you can look online for patient-oriented Lyme groups (maybe we should call them 'Lyme clubs', ha) near you, and then you'll get the scoop on who the good Lyme docs are near you.
Good for you for pursuing what is ailing you -- you are seeing (as most of us have) that many of the docs are taught that Lyme is rare and hard to get, and their favorite motto is usually "We Don't Have Lyme Around Here." Uh, wrong.
From what I read (and I'm not a doc), doxycycline can be the right treatment when a Lyme infection is very new (and assuming any other infections your tick brought can be killed by doxy). When you are finished with the doxy, then if you don't feel totally normal again, I would find a Lyme disease specialist for a second look and possibly more and different antibiotics.
Lyme disease specialists can be any kind of doc (mine was trained as a rheumatologist), and the important difference is how they understand Lyme. If you go to the ILADS website (International Lyme and Associated Disease Society), they can refer you to a Lyme specialist near you (there is a link on their website for referrals, but those docs don't have a test or anything to know if they are 'good' docs, but it's a place to start, and you might get lucky).
You can also put a new post up here saying "Need LLMD near [Toledo, Ohio]" or wherever you are, and someone here may have a recommendation, but it will be sent to you by private message, since we usually do NOT put our Lyme docs' names in public, so that the medical board doesn't hassle them for not following the supposedly 'standard' doxy treatment.
That you got a bullseye rash is something to tell any future docs you see about this ailment. Not all of us get a rash or see a tick, so you have good evidence.
You say, "I called the next day and requested a llmd or an infectious doctor. They are referring me to an infectious doctor." Unfortunately LLMDs and infectious disease (ID) docs do not see the Lyme world in the same way at all. The ID docs tend to think Lyme is no big deal, and they often don't test for possible infections that the 'Lyme' ticks carry about half the time, and if you still have symptoms after your (probably 10 day) course of doxy, ID docs may say that it's just 'post-Lyme syndrome', because the doxy has killed the Lyme and your immune system is just continuing to act like you are infected, but you are not.
Uh, no. That approach is the official one for ID docs, but an LLMD will probably see it all quite differently. This is the most complicated thing about Lyme treatment (besides being sick): the medical community is split, with the ID docs believing Lyme is not serious and a couple weeks of doxy will kill it for sure, but they are not up to date with the fact that Lyme can and does hide in the body in areas where the immune system and doxycycline will not find and kill the bacteria.
In contrast, an LLMD knows that Lyme can and does hide, and that doxy may well not be the right meds, both against Lyme bacteria hiding in slimy areas in the bodies called 'biofilms', and because other infections the 'Lyme' bacteria often carry in addition to Lyme do not respond to doxy at all.
'LLMD' is not a degree or title, just patient slang for an MD who thinks bigger thoughts about Lyme.
--->>> If you are not totally well when the doxy prescription is finished, then I would find a Lyme specialist without delay. Lyme will not just go away if doxy doesn't do the job, and if you have any co-infections, those usually need separate meds.
It's part of Lyme to feel scared and worried -- Lyme messes with the body's emotions, and when Lyme is properly treated and goes away, you should feel better.
You say, "I hope since I receive treatment on the seventh day after the bite that I will be ok. D you think I will?" Maybe -- there's no way to know before you finish the meds and see how you feel.
You say, "I am scared and worried at this" -- that's part of Lyme: it messes with your endocrine system. And Lyme is a freaky thing too, so it's natural to be concerned. You are doing the right things by asking question and thinking things through.
Hang on, and let us know what you do and how you feel, ok? Best wishes.
... and PS, you can look online for patient-oriented Lyme groups (maybe we should call them 'Lyme clubs', ha) near you, and then you'll get the scoop on who the good Lyme docs are near you.
Hello,I am knew to this forum and have been reading everything I can find to help me understand lyme disease. I was bit by tick three weeks ago and found a small tick trying to bury under my skin on my stomach after six hours had passed,I took get still alive and drawing and put it down the sink and took a shower,I notice a lump on my back and squeeze d it but only juice came out. I LET it go for a week and got a bullseye rash and went to the hospital and the doctor dug into my back and said there wasn't anything there and put me on doxacylien for two weeks and took a blood test and culture of the juice. I went to my doctor a couple of days later and she was in alw over the rash like she had never seen it before on some one. She said I have Lyme disease because of the rash and that my blood test came back negative for antivirus. From what I have read on here says that the antibodys don't show for two to three weeks. I ask her if I need anouther blood test and she said no because I'm on the right medacine for lyme and so I don't need one. I told her what I read on here and she said she would retest my blood if I wanted her to in three months. Like everyone says don't take no for an answer so I called the next day and requested a llmd or an infectious doctor. They are referring me to an infectious doctor.Thank you for all the info on here.I would of just took her word for it. I am on doxacylien for two weeks twice a day and it makes my head dizzy but I can take it. I hope since I receive treatment on the seventh day after the bite that I will be ok. D you think I will? I will go to the inferaction s doctor when I get my apointment and keep you posted on what goes on from there. I am scared and worried at this and any info or help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you,My name is rex and I am 62 year old male. Thank you again.
The American Lyme Disease Foundation is a propaganda front for the IDSA. It's purpose is to minimize and trivialize Lyme Disease, both in its frequency and in its severity.
I've read it twice in the last couple years and both times I was appalled. One time it was addressing the question of whether Lyme could mimic MS, and they basically said that there were a few cases back in the early days of discovering Lyme Disease that did, but that such cases were hardly ever seen any more due to better diagnostics. They still say that neurological symptoms are very rare and almost non-existant, which flies in the face of the ILADS doctors who have treated 10's of thousands of us.
They say that the tests are excellent and Lyme must not be diagnosed without a positive, but they're slowly backing off that rigid requirement since 3 young healthy people died over the last couple years of heart block from undiagnosed Lyme. (At least one of them tested false negative for Lyme.)
(See the post I just did about the scientific study that showed that the CDC 2-tier Lyme testing only accurately found 59% of infected patients.)
I don't know where their 36 hours rule comes from. There was a study years ago done on mice where Lyme infected ticks were attached for various lengths of time and then pulled off. Then they checked to see which mice got infected.
They said that no mice with an attached tick for less than 24 hours got infected. But critics of the study point out that they used adult ticks. Adult ticks rarely feed on mice. Nymph ticks do. Adults can feed for several days. Nymphs can feed in as little as 8 hours. Nymphs are primarily responsible for Lyme Disease in humans, so it's disturbing that they make such definitive conclusions about transfer of Lyme from nymphs to humans based on a single study of adult ticks on mice.
Also, they only waited a month to see if the mice were infected. If they'd waited 2-3 months, perhaps some of the mice with short tick attachments would have also turned up sick.
I read that Willy Burgdorfer, the microbiologist who discovered the spirochetes that cause Lyme (they're named after him - borrelia burgdorferi), has publicly stated that about 10% of the ticks he studied had borrelia bacteria in their saliva, not just in their mid-gut. He said those particular ticks would transmit the infection in a very short time after biting.
Most everything the CDC and IDSA do about Lyme Disease, especially in the studies they've funded and run, is about minimizing the disease and avoiding anything that might prove them wrong. They've continued to publicly quote the number of reported cases as if that were the total disease count. IDSA doctors kept talking about how there were only 20-25,000 cases a year, while all along, the CDC knew very well the actual number was more like 10 times that. They finally did a big 4- year study to estimate the actual number of cases and came up with 300,000 a year. They finally announced this last fall, 10 years after they first admitted at a conference that the numbers were way low.
I have since learned of the big regional and national labs that they surveyed, 288,000 individuals tested positive for Lyme Disease in 2008. That does not include all the people with a bulls eye rash who never got tested but were treated based on the rash. It also doesn't include all the people who tested false negative, or the people who were never tested because they and their doctors never thought to test for Lyme. It also doesn't include people tested in hospital labs, independent labs, or smaller regional labs.
So, once again, the CDC is understating the truth about Lyme. The statistical interpretation of the 288K number in the study suggests 440,000 people could have been infected in 2008. Again, this doesn't include all the people with Lyme who never got tested. So why did the CDC announce that the actual cases are 300,000/year? That number is probably too low by a factor of 50%.
This is just one example for why people who have struggled with Lyme Disease have so little trust in the CDC and IDSA. They have outright lied about this disease, dictating "guidelines" and policies (e.g. requiring a positive test for a diagnosis and treatment) that have left people sick and disabled.
One more topic: the rash. When Allen Steere first published about this new disease he called "Lyme Arthritis" back in the 70's, he observed that about a quarter of the patients reported a bulls eye shaped rash. Because nothing else causes this rash, researchers and physicians latched on to it as a definitive sign of Lyme.
Eventually, they figured out what antibodies it produces and developed blood tests to look for them. But the bulls eye rash became part of the reporting criteria. As a result, the vast majority of reported cases had a bulls eye rash. No surprise there.
While the CDC reports that 80% of Lyme Disease cases show a bulls eye rash, understand that that's only the reported cases (a small sample), which excludes most cases without a rash. (Note: In CA, even the reported cases only show a 50% rash rate, so it could be based on which genetic strain you have.)
The CDC's narrow and inconsistent reporting criteria across states resulted in a false belief that 80% of Lyme cases show the tell tale rash. The truth is somewhere in the 25-50% range. Wouldn't it be nice if the CDC would do a well designed study that would give us a more accurate number? I shudder to think how many people are chronically sick with Lyme because they and/or their doctors were waiting for a bulls eye rash to show up, but it never did.
I've read it twice in the last couple years and both times I was appalled. One time it was addressing the question of whether Lyme could mimic MS, and they basically said that there were a few cases back in the early days of discovering Lyme Disease that did, but that such cases were hardly ever seen any more due to better diagnostics. They still say that neurological symptoms are very rare and almost non-existant, which flies in the face of the ILADS doctors who have treated 10's of thousands of us.
They say that the tests are excellent and Lyme must not be diagnosed without a positive, but they're slowly backing off that rigid requirement since 3 young healthy people died over the last couple years of heart block from undiagnosed Lyme. (At least one of them tested false negative for Lyme.)
(See the post I just did about the scientific study that showed that the CDC 2-tier Lyme testing only accurately found 59% of infected patients.)
I don't know where their 36 hours rule comes from. There was a study years ago done on mice where Lyme infected ticks were attached for various lengths of time and then pulled off. Then they checked to see which mice got infected.
They said that no mice with an attached tick for less than 24 hours got infected. But critics of the study point out that they used adult ticks. Adult ticks rarely feed on mice. Nymph ticks do. Adults can feed for several days. Nymphs can feed in as little as 8 hours. Nymphs are primarily responsible for Lyme Disease in humans, so it's disturbing that they make such definitive conclusions about transfer of Lyme from nymphs to humans based on a single study of adult ticks on mice.
Also, they only waited a month to see if the mice were infected. If they'd waited 2-3 months, perhaps some of the mice with short tick attachments would have also turned up sick.
I read that Willy Burgdorfer, the microbiologist who discovered the spirochetes that cause Lyme (they're named after him - borrelia burgdorferi), has publicly stated that about 10% of the ticks he studied had borrelia bacteria in their saliva, not just in their mid-gut. He said those particular ticks would transmit the infection in a very short time after biting.
Most everything the CDC and IDSA do about Lyme Disease, especially in the studies they've funded and run, is about minimizing the disease and avoiding anything that might prove them wrong. They've continued to publicly quote the number of reported cases as if that were the total disease count. IDSA doctors kept talking about how there were only 20-25,000 cases a year, while all along, the CDC knew very well the actual number was more like 10 times that. They finally did a big 4- year study to estimate the actual number of cases and came up with 300,000 a year. They finally announced this last fall, 10 years after they first admitted at a conference that the numbers were way low.
I have since learned of the big regional and national labs that they surveyed, 288,000 individuals tested positive for Lyme Disease in 2008. That does not include all the people with a bulls eye rash who never got tested but were treated based on the rash. It also doesn't include all the people who tested false negative, or the people who were never tested because they and their doctors never thought to test for Lyme. It also doesn't include people tested in hospital labs, independent labs, or smaller regional labs.
So, once again, the CDC is understating the truth about Lyme. The statistical interpretation of the 288K number in the study suggests 440,000 people could have been infected in 2008. Again, this doesn't include all the people with Lyme who never got tested. So why did the CDC announce that the actual cases are 300,000/year? That number is probably too low by a factor of 50%.
This is just one example for why people who have struggled with Lyme Disease have so little trust in the CDC and IDSA. They have outright lied about this disease, dictating "guidelines" and policies (e.g. requiring a positive test for a diagnosis and treatment) that have left people sick and disabled.
One more topic: the rash. When Allen Steere first published about this new disease he called "Lyme Arthritis" back in the 70's, he observed that about a quarter of the patients reported a bulls eye shaped rash. Because nothing else causes this rash, researchers and physicians latched on to it as a definitive sign of Lyme.
Eventually, they figured out what antibodies it produces and developed blood tests to look for them. But the bulls eye rash became part of the reporting criteria. As a result, the vast majority of reported cases had a bulls eye rash. No surprise there.
While the CDC reports that 80% of Lyme Disease cases show a bulls eye rash, understand that that's only the reported cases (a small sample), which excludes most cases without a rash. (Note: In CA, even the reported cases only show a 50% rash rate, so it could be based on which genetic strain you have.)
The CDC's narrow and inconsistent reporting criteria across states resulted in a false belief that 80% of Lyme cases show the tell tale rash. The truth is somewhere in the 25-50% range. Wouldn't it be nice if the CDC would do a well designed study that would give us a more accurate number? I shudder to think how many people are chronically sick with Lyme because they and/or their doctors were waiting for a bulls eye rash to show up, but it never did.
and PS, you could ask to be put on your LLMD's cancellation list if you are nearby, so if somebody has to reschedule, they could slip you in on short notice if you're nearby. My LLMD's first appointment w a new patient is always an hour long, but some of his patients fly in from other places, so it can happen that someone can't make it, and I'm fortunate that I am only a few minutes from his office. just fwiw.
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