Aa
Bladder relapse vs. bladder problems
Hi! With data suggesting 80 percent of ms patients have bladder problems, how is one to know if your relapsing or simply having " problems" from the initial relapse? I.E.:
Initial relapse noted. Trouble voiding completely. No infection present. Finally within a month back to normal. 8 Months go by.. No problems. Then a uti develops out of nowhere (which tends to happen within the rhelm of "bladder problems", )... Then a couple weeks of not voiding completely again. Then back to "normal. " Meaning no pressure or trouble voiding completely. Relapse or is this part of the 80 percent ????? Thx hope all are well!
-andi
Initial relapse noted. Trouble voiding completely. No infection present. Finally within a month back to normal. 8 Months go by.. No problems. Then a uti develops out of nowhere (which tends to happen within the rhelm of "bladder problems", )... Then a couple weeks of not voiding completely again. Then back to "normal. " Meaning no pressure or trouble voiding completely. Relapse or is this part of the 80 percent ????? Thx hope all are well!
-andi
Ok. Well then until my next MRI .. ( August). .. I'm guessing that will tell more. However if there WAS a lesion that remylated, maybe it would show. But then again.. Maybe not. I guess what I'm trying to get at is with bladder issues being so common in MS, can you call them " relapses" when they appear to become worse or different. As that is the criteria for the meaning of a relapse. And I was trying to decide if it's worth a call to the neuro. In any event.. I suppose as you said ess, I should get a urologist anyway. I'm sure there's more issues to come. (Sigh).
1 Comments
And yes! Supermum.. Im in the not grin able to empty completely rhelm. I know it too. But I get tired of pushing like I'm in labor all over again.lol! So I just wait until I can try again. Sometimes my kidneys feel sore but quickly goes away as I seem to be able to get it out eventually. My next MRI is brain only, because he said if there were spinal cord possibilities, he'd know. Such as the zing when you lower your head and the " hug" that often gets talked about. Maybe?
COMMUNITY LEADER
Hi Andi,
I've been dealing with no warning incontinence (on and off) for a couple of years now, but urgency preceded for quite a few years and it has never improved. Oh the urgency can get worse than my normal, which isn't much of a warning as it is, but for kicks and giggle my bladder warns me i need to go and then it's an 'instant' release, nothing i can do to stop it, it's not under pressure just opens and starts running....
I'd really wet my self once during the day and twice before going to bed with the instant releasing, that night i got up on one of my 'frequent' trips to the bathroom instead of sleeping, unexpectedly hit into the wall hard enough to crash land on the bathroom floor, day 2 was a repeat but without the wall crash part lol and i'm on day three currently.
I've got the hole round robin thing going on, my bladder/vagina/bowel muscles don't seem to know what's going on, everything affects each other and the muscles get stuck in push mode, they are not automatically relaxing back after use so it feels like i'm still pushing down to go, after hours of it, it kinda makes me feel like i'm trying to pass a bowling ball :D
I'm not really sure i would say you can't get new bladder issues with a relapse, cause it's got to start and a new lesion in the right place could be the start but maybe causation is more too the point, i know there is a strong correlation of spinal lesions and bladder dysfunction but there's a couple of brain locations too, um the 'pons' keeps popping into my head not sure if that right though..
Basic information:
"Problems with storage
When the nerve pathways in the spine are interrupted, even a small amount of urine in the bladder can cause it to contract. This causes a need to urinate frequently – known as frequency.
Another problem is an inability to ‘hold on’, called urgency. If this is severe, urgency incontinence will be a problem.
Problems with emptying
The other main type of bladder disorder is to do with emptying. If the bladder muscles don't work in coordination, this can make urine flow poor and interrupted, and your bladder may not empty incompletely.
If your bladder isn’t emptying completely, you may not be able to feel it. However, if you need to go to the toilet for a second time only a short while later and you’re passing a similar amount of urine, this could be a sign that your bladder isn’t emptying fully. Urine left in the bladder – this is called ‘the residual’ – stimulates further bladder contractions and can add to problems of urgency and frequency."
https://www.mssociety.org.uk/what-is-ms/signs-and-symptoms/bladder/abour-bladder-problems
I'm aware that there are numerous causes of bladder retention, and it's not always what was first thought, cause even a the common medications eg Baclofen can cause it too. THis has a few good lists of different causes that might be worth looking through...http://www.aafp.org/afp/2008/0301/p643.html
Sometimes i think it's all what came first, the chicken or the egg, retention commonly causes a UTI, UTI's commonly cause retention, lol so finding a UTI isnt necessarily the answer....
Cheers....JJ
I've been dealing with no warning incontinence (on and off) for a couple of years now, but urgency preceded for quite a few years and it has never improved. Oh the urgency can get worse than my normal, which isn't much of a warning as it is, but for kicks and giggle my bladder warns me i need to go and then it's an 'instant' release, nothing i can do to stop it, it's not under pressure just opens and starts running....
I'd really wet my self once during the day and twice before going to bed with the instant releasing, that night i got up on one of my 'frequent' trips to the bathroom instead of sleeping, unexpectedly hit into the wall hard enough to crash land on the bathroom floor, day 2 was a repeat but without the wall crash part lol and i'm on day three currently.
I've got the hole round robin thing going on, my bladder/vagina/bowel muscles don't seem to know what's going on, everything affects each other and the muscles get stuck in push mode, they are not automatically relaxing back after use so it feels like i'm still pushing down to go, after hours of it, it kinda makes me feel like i'm trying to pass a bowling ball :D
I'm not really sure i would say you can't get new bladder issues with a relapse, cause it's got to start and a new lesion in the right place could be the start but maybe causation is more too the point, i know there is a strong correlation of spinal lesions and bladder dysfunction but there's a couple of brain locations too, um the 'pons' keeps popping into my head not sure if that right though..
Basic information:
"Problems with storage
When the nerve pathways in the spine are interrupted, even a small amount of urine in the bladder can cause it to contract. This causes a need to urinate frequently – known as frequency.
Another problem is an inability to ‘hold on’, called urgency. If this is severe, urgency incontinence will be a problem.
Problems with emptying
The other main type of bladder disorder is to do with emptying. If the bladder muscles don't work in coordination, this can make urine flow poor and interrupted, and your bladder may not empty incompletely.
If your bladder isn’t emptying completely, you may not be able to feel it. However, if you need to go to the toilet for a second time only a short while later and you’re passing a similar amount of urine, this could be a sign that your bladder isn’t emptying fully. Urine left in the bladder – this is called ‘the residual’ – stimulates further bladder contractions and can add to problems of urgency and frequency."
https://www.mssociety.org.uk/what-is-ms/signs-and-symptoms/bladder/abour-bladder-problems
I'm aware that there are numerous causes of bladder retention, and it's not always what was first thought, cause even a the common medications eg Baclofen can cause it too. THis has a few good lists of different causes that might be worth looking through...http://www.aafp.org/afp/2008/0301/p643.html
Sometimes i think it's all what came first, the chicken or the egg, retention commonly causes a UTI, UTI's commonly cause retention, lol so finding a UTI isnt necessarily the answer....
Cheers....JJ
My bladder and bowel seem to act up around my menstrual cycle. I have been following it for about 6 months or so and discussed with the doc and she said all factors play a roll, MS included. I'm dealing with it right now. I leak urine. I sit down because I have to really go and I don't feel empty when I'm done. I've only pooped one time in the last 8 days. Looks like I'm ready to give birth any day. It feels miserable!!!! I eat a very good diet, drink lots of water, and do miralax when this starts. My Neuro said the bowel and bladder are symptoms of ms.
I have been pretty fortunate in warding off UTI s by taking a cranmax slow
release cranberry pill. Can't imagine dealing with this if it gets much worse.
Best regards barb
I have been pretty fortunate in warding off UTI s by taking a cranmax slow
release cranberry pill. Can't imagine dealing with this if it gets much worse.
Best regards barb
I have escalated bladder issues during any relapse that involves both my legs. During one relapse I retained completely and had to have an indwelling cath put in -- I have not retained since that relapse (which also involved walking) resolved. I've had a big increase in incontinence during a similar *both legs* relapse, and twice have lost all feeling in bladder - no cues to go for a couple of months.
My normal is not normal, but it is much more manageable.
So I dunno; in my experience I would say that bladder can definitely be affected during a relapse.
My normal is not normal, but it is much more manageable.
So I dunno; in my experience I would say that bladder can definitely be affected during a relapse.
MedHelp software gets screwy at times, and instead of simply leaving things as you typed them, instead inserts markup symbols for quotation marks and apostrophes, among other problems.
But back to the question: I said that in many years I have not heard of bladder issues being a new relapse, not that I know for sure that this is impossible. Also, a lot of neuros refuse to consider anything that has happened before an actual relapse, but say it is a pseudo one. This implies that a new lesion or at least a clearly enhancing one of any age is a necessary condition for relapse. My opinion is that this is krap. My opinion also remains that you need a uro consult.
But back to the question: I said that in many years I have not heard of bladder issues being a new relapse, not that I know for sure that this is impossible. Also, a lot of neuros refuse to consider anything that has happened before an actual relapse, but say it is a pseudo one. This implies that a new lesion or at least a clearly enhancing one of any age is a necessary condition for relapse. My opinion is that this is krap. My opinion also remains that you need a uro consult.
Hmmmm.. So I'm understanding there's no such thing as a relapse in the world of bladders? Just a symptom. So as the bladder symptoms progress over time that is just a side effect of pre damage as opposed to " worsening or new" of symptoms as described in relapses. Is that basically it?
1 Comments
Yikes. I hope you can read through some of that scribble.. I'm not sure why my typing came out that way.
Hey Andi! My bladder issues seem to be overactive bladder only. I had issues with UTIs before my diagnosis but none since.
I did not have retention issues when tested and while my med has reduced the amount of times I go to the washroom (by more than half some days), it does take a bit more effort to empty my bladder.
My urologist says that bladder issues in MS tend to change over time and that retention may be an issue down the road. She also said that it can change after a relapse so I need to be vigilant to make sure my medication doesn't cover up a change in the frequency which could signal that my bladder issue has changed.
I had a lot of pressure last summer that made the urge to urinate every 15 minutes, they checked for UTI and there was none so it appeared to be bladder spasms that only lasted a couple of days.
I hope your issues get worked out without too much trouble,
Corrie
I did not have retention issues when tested and while my med has reduced the amount of times I go to the washroom (by more than half some days), it does take a bit more effort to empty my bladder.
My urologist says that bladder issues in MS tend to change over time and that retention may be an issue down the road. She also said that it can change after a relapse so I need to be vigilant to make sure my medication doesn't cover up a change in the frequency which could signal that my bladder issue has changed.
I had a lot of pressure last summer that made the urge to urinate every 15 minutes, they checked for UTI and there was none so it appeared to be bladder spasms that only lasted a couple of days.
I hope your issues get worked out without too much trouble,
Corrie
Oh, I failed to comment about 'bladder relapse.' I've actually never heard of that expression, but I'd think that if bladder symptoms recur in the absence of infection, it's likely to be just the vagaries of MS. Very few of us if any who have had RRMS for quite a few years have no symptoms between relapses, but sometimes they're significantly worse.
Some symptoms are every single day at the same level and are really permanent due to damage to nerves and not new inflammation, some are every day but on a different schedule (such as my burning right leg, which is much worse at night). Some are just randomly worse and better. I haven't heard of bladder problems ever totally resolving to the point where they no longer exist, even if they're quiet for the time being, or mayber quieter. This possibly (can't say with any certainty) is because for whatever reason, this symptom usually occurs once MS has been well-established and not as a presenting symptom.
Of course some symptoms during relapse do go away permanently--I just haven't heard of bladder stuff in this category. A uro-gynecologist is your best bet for detailed info, and if you ask your neuro you're likely to be referred there anyway.
Some symptoms are every single day at the same level and are really permanent due to damage to nerves and not new inflammation, some are every day but on a different schedule (such as my burning right leg, which is much worse at night). Some are just randomly worse and better. I haven't heard of bladder problems ever totally resolving to the point where they no longer exist, even if they're quiet for the time being, or mayber quieter. This possibly (can't say with any certainty) is because for whatever reason, this symptom usually occurs once MS has been well-established and not as a presenting symptom.
Of course some symptoms during relapse do go away permanently--I just haven't heard of bladder stuff in this category. A uro-gynecologist is your best bet for detailed info, and if you ask your neuro you're likely to be referred there anyway.
Well actually, the bladder and brain are connected in a way. The brain needs a timely signal that the bladder needs emptying so we can hold urine till we get to a bathroom. Sometimes that doesn't happen. Some people lose urine having had no signal whatever. Some of us just don't get enough warning, and suddenly we're desperate. This one has happened to me many times, a few times even in public, to my horror. For me, the only way to manage the process is to visit the bathroom based on time elapsed and liquid consumed, not signal.
Although urination seems simple enough, in reality it's quite complicated. This I learned many years ago from Quix, our early forum mentor. Peeing requires the transmission of signals, in the right order, from the brain down the spine to the bladder. A lot can go wrong. Even when we know we have to go and get there in a timely fashion, we don't always get the result we want. Worst case scenario is that the bladder muscles and urethra refuse to cooperate, and this continues over time. We may feel we have to go to the point of bursting, but if nothing works, urine can back up into the kidneys, a very serious problem requiring emergency treatment.
Often, though, it's not that dire. We get hesitation, stopping and going, which are maddening, but if we ultimately empty the bladder, that's what counts. Women with MS and bladder issues should see a urologist or preferably a uro/gynecologist (one-stop shopping!). Urodynamics testing can show what's happening very scientifically. For me, pretty much everything about peeing was messed up, from hugely stretch bladder on. For a few months years ago I had to self-cath, but luckily that issue rectified itself on is own.
For anyone still awake after reading this endless comment, you should know that as andi wrote, sometimes it's hard to figure out what's going on. Infection (UTI) is very possible and happens often, even without the typical symptoms, so that should be the first thing checked for. If no infection, then it's likely to be just the effects of MS. My bladder problems do ebb and flow without infections, but I'm always aware off the possibilities.
As to why about 80% of MSers get these issues, I don't think anyone knows for sure, and I'm just a patient. My guess, though, is that since it's a long CNS way from the brain to the urethra, that leaves room for lesions anywhere on this path to disrupt things. We don't know why some CNS locations seem to attract lesions galore, thus resulting in the most common MS symptoms, while others usually escape unscathed.
Although urination seems simple enough, in reality it's quite complicated. This I learned many years ago from Quix, our early forum mentor. Peeing requires the transmission of signals, in the right order, from the brain down the spine to the bladder. A lot can go wrong. Even when we know we have to go and get there in a timely fashion, we don't always get the result we want. Worst case scenario is that the bladder muscles and urethra refuse to cooperate, and this continues over time. We may feel we have to go to the point of bursting, but if nothing works, urine can back up into the kidneys, a very serious problem requiring emergency treatment.
Often, though, it's not that dire. We get hesitation, stopping and going, which are maddening, but if we ultimately empty the bladder, that's what counts. Women with MS and bladder issues should see a urologist or preferably a uro/gynecologist (one-stop shopping!). Urodynamics testing can show what's happening very scientifically. For me, pretty much everything about peeing was messed up, from hugely stretch bladder on. For a few months years ago I had to self-cath, but luckily that issue rectified itself on is own.
For anyone still awake after reading this endless comment, you should know that as andi wrote, sometimes it's hard to figure out what's going on. Infection (UTI) is very possible and happens often, even without the typical symptoms, so that should be the first thing checked for. If no infection, then it's likely to be just the effects of MS. My bladder problems do ebb and flow without infections, but I'm always aware off the possibilities.
As to why about 80% of MSers get these issues, I don't think anyone knows for sure, and I'm just a patient. My guess, though, is that since it's a long CNS way from the brain to the urethra, that leaves room for lesions anywhere on this path to disrupt things. We don't know why some CNS locations seem to attract lesions galore, thus resulting in the most common MS symptoms, while others usually escape unscathed.
Have an Answer?
You are reading content posted in the Multiple Sclerosis Community
Top Neurology Answerers
Australia
ON
Queensland, Australia
Queen Creek, AZ
Find out how beta-blocker eye drops show promising results for acute migraine relief.
In this special Missouri Medicine report, doctors examine advances in diagnosis and treatment of this devastating and costly neurodegenerative disease.
Here are 12 simple – and fun! – ways to boost your brainpower.
Discover some of the causes of dizziness and how to treat it.
Discover the common causes of headaches and how to treat headache pain.
Two of the largest studies on Alzheimer’s have yielded new clues about the disease
