Aa
Does everybody with ms get myoclonus (or clonus)?
I mean regularly at some point? Does that show on a EMG test? I´m trying to find the right words for what is going on with me before I go see the neuro. I know he said once, when I described my thumb jerking, that it was a myoclonus. Now I get a simular jerking feeling sometimes in a toe, more fingers, elbow and once or twice in my anckle. But it was not severe enaugh to move my arm (when I got in my elbow). Would that be a Clonus or a Myoclonus?
If you do have this, did it start mild (like I have it)? Please all of you that have this tell me what you know, maby peoble feel this differently?
My best,
Dagun
If you do have this, did it start mild (like I have it)? Please all of you that have this tell me what you know, maby peoble feel this differently?
My best,
Dagun
COMMUNITY LEADER
Um testing of my ancle clonus is instant, basically just what you see in the different movie clips for this neuro test. Its been a couple of years since its been tested but back then the neuro was fighting to hold my leg bent, whilst it did its jerking about.
Lol Jen, the dull/sharp sensory test, the neuro didn't even ask me if i felt it or not, ever! What i think they alternatively do is more like a scrape, if there is a nerve sensation the skin should react to it, though not sure what it means if your skin does react normally and you cant feel it.
My myclonus always gives me a clue its coming, i'm never unaware of the clenching of my entire skeleton frame, before i jerk weirdly about, ugg i hate it but i never know if its going to happen, when its going to happen or how many times it'll happen lol i dont really think about it cause i can't predict or stop it.
Cheers..........JJ
Lol Jen, the dull/sharp sensory test, the neuro didn't even ask me if i felt it or not, ever! What i think they alternatively do is more like a scrape, if there is a nerve sensation the skin should react to it, though not sure what it means if your skin does react normally and you cant feel it.
My myclonus always gives me a clue its coming, i'm never unaware of the clenching of my entire skeleton frame, before i jerk weirdly about, ugg i hate it but i never know if its going to happen, when its going to happen or how many times it'll happen lol i dont really think about it cause i can't predict or stop it.
Cheers..........JJ
It might be a simple fasciculation, or twitch. I get those often in my hands, either the first finger or the thumb. I also get them in my face - the right eyelid has been a problem in the last couple of days. That's essentially because the nerve has been damaged, so you're getting some trash signal from some other part of your body that's getting transmitted to your thumb.
Yes, that´s what I was thinking, when I tried this new neuro, she did not wait for any responses or give this any time! I was in there for 30 min max, first telling my story then the superquick test.
But I don´t feel any build up before my myoclonus, it just comes quick and unexpected. Thank you both so much!
My best to you all,
Dagun
But I don´t feel any build up before my myoclonus, it just comes quick and unexpected. Thank you both so much!
My best to you all,
Dagun
Yeah, show that neuro the door quick. He's not doing you any favors. One of the reasons I got a new neuro is the old one wasn't really treating my myoclonus, and every time I came in with another attack, he'd schedule me for a stupid .7T MRI or something. Clueless.
Oh myoclonus is frustrating! I went to the neuro today and he said "oh that's normal" I explained to him that it wasn't sleep starts or just restless leg syndrome, but he wasn't listening. He said louder (as if that would help!) "it's normal". I said, but I've never had it before in my life and now since my attack a year ago I have it all the time. He said louder still "I said it's normal, look I'll note it in your chart".
By that time I was done fighting so I didn't even get to tell him that mine is every night in bed and sometimes when I'm on the couch or chair. Or that it is severe and painful. If I'm lying on my side and my spine flexes it pretty much knocks me on my back. I'll also get ones that jerk my shoulder blade up sharply. This will happen for an hour or so before I fall asleep.
That's not normal! I'm looking for a new neuro. He also told me I have MS but not enough evidence...but he's putting me on a DMD at least.
I wish you luck Dugan! This whole process ****
Corina
By that time I was done fighting so I didn't even get to tell him that mine is every night in bed and sometimes when I'm on the couch or chair. Or that it is severe and painful. If I'm lying on my side and my spine flexes it pretty much knocks me on my back. I'll also get ones that jerk my shoulder blade up sharply. This will happen for an hour or so before I fall asleep.
That's not normal! I'm looking for a new neuro. He also told me I have MS but not enough evidence...but he's putting me on a DMD at least.
I wish you luck Dugan! This whole process ****
Corina
Dagun, I think the myoclonus and clonus are in separate parts of my body. I've had the scissor clonus of my legs for a long time. When I wake up, or when I haven't moved in a while, my legs will straighten and clench involuntarily. I think it's a similar thing with the whap-whap-whap problem. And of course the painful pinprick sensation that will turn into a twitch of my leg.
The myoclonus is a little different, and more disabling. It seems to involve more than one muscle group, and once it goes off, there's a little buildup before it goes off again.
In my experience, the neuro never waits long enough to see if the clonus test works. The last time a neuro tried it on me, he whacked me on the inside of the forearm, didn't see anything immediately, and looked away. A split second after he looked away, my hand did this involuntary twitch/clench and pulled toward the inside of my wrist. He's also the one who would test my sensation, but would never wait long enough to see what I said about it. Oddly distant for a practicing neuro - I wasn't sad when he quit his practice.
The myoclonus is a little different, and more disabling. It seems to involve more than one muscle group, and once it goes off, there's a little buildup before it goes off again.
In my experience, the neuro never waits long enough to see if the clonus test works. The last time a neuro tried it on me, he whacked me on the inside of the forearm, didn't see anything immediately, and looked away. A split second after he looked away, my hand did this involuntary twitch/clench and pulled toward the inside of my wrist. He's also the one who would test my sensation, but would never wait long enough to see what I said about it. Oddly distant for a practicing neuro - I wasn't sad when he quit his practice.
Guitargirl, thank you for telling me. I woke up this morning and my point finger went crazy :), but it goes like 1-2-3 then a second 1-2 then a second and so on, so that is probably myoclonus when I think of that jensiquitor said irregular jerk.
Thank you JJ, I think I have also had clonus because I remember twice getting this in my anckle, and it was quick and very repeditive. But when the neuro did the clonus test, she saw nothing. I think though that when she did it, she was just so uninterested.
When I say mild, I mean because it did not get strong enaugh to move my arm and it is not all the time. Maby about every second day, I get a short episode and sometimes often at the same place over the day.
If any of you can share more about you´re experience, please do. I´m desperatly trying to convince myself that I´m not crazy.
My best,
Dagun
Thank you JJ, I think I have also had clonus because I remember twice getting this in my anckle, and it was quick and very repeditive. But when the neuro did the clonus test, she saw nothing. I think though that when she did it, she was just so uninterested.
When I say mild, I mean because it did not get strong enaugh to move my arm and it is not all the time. Maby about every second day, I get a short episode and sometimes often at the same place over the day.
If any of you can share more about you´re experience, please do. I´m desperatly trying to convince myself that I´m not crazy.
My best,
Dagun
COMMUNITY LEADER
When you say "mild" are you thinking "mild" because its a toe, a thumb etc and not "hard" enough to move your full arm or "mild" because its not happening to you all the time?
Sorry everyone probably knows what you mean but my brain has gone out to lunch and i'm finding things difficult to work out [doh] my 5 1/2 hour nap hasn't helped lol
Rofl I'm not sure what i was going to say, lol personally I never stop moving anymore due to tremors but apart from that i'm pretty much jerking in some way every day, multiple times a day. I dont have any memory of individual digits jerking, i'm more full limb or full body, eg with my ancle clonus, once it gets going, it can keep going for hours. Walking sets it off, it can even keep going whilst sitting, I dont understand why but laying flat seems to help sooth it.
The way i tell the difference between clonus and myclonic is that I find Myclonic jerks to be sudden, more commonly for me its just one or two quite violent full body jerks, i have a couple of seconds warning before it hits with a bang. With clonus though, even though its still a jerk, I still find it more rythmic and repeditive, theres definitely an apparent pattern.
Hope that helped :o) but i've lost the plot so i'll leave it there, so hope i haven't confused you even more lol i've done that already today.
Cheers..........JJ
Sorry everyone probably knows what you mean but my brain has gone out to lunch and i'm finding things difficult to work out [doh] my 5 1/2 hour nap hasn't helped lol
Rofl I'm not sure what i was going to say, lol personally I never stop moving anymore due to tremors but apart from that i'm pretty much jerking in some way every day, multiple times a day. I dont have any memory of individual digits jerking, i'm more full limb or full body, eg with my ancle clonus, once it gets going, it can keep going for hours. Walking sets it off, it can even keep going whilst sitting, I dont understand why but laying flat seems to help sooth it.
The way i tell the difference between clonus and myclonic is that I find Myclonic jerks to be sudden, more commonly for me its just one or two quite violent full body jerks, i have a couple of seconds warning before it hits with a bang. With clonus though, even though its still a jerk, I still find it more rythmic and repeditive, theres definitely an apparent pattern.
Hope that helped :o) but i've lost the plot so i'll leave it there, so hope i haven't confused you even more lol i've done that already today.
Cheers..........JJ
I often wake up with clonus of my right foot and hand when I stretch and go from lying to sitting to standing.
Back in '98, I had a flare that included myoclonus (whole body) for a week. Weird!!
Back in '98, I had a flare that included myoclonus (whole body) for a week. Weird!!
Thank you all for the help :). One more thing though, did it start as a very mild clonus first Jensequitur?
My best,
Dagun
My best,
Dagun
Myoclonus refers to sudden, involuntary jerking. It occurs in healthy people (in events like hiccups or 'sleep startles' which occur as you fall asleep) but is also produced by many different diseases and disorders (epilepsy, brain injury, infections, spinal cord injury, neuro diseases). Myoclonus is initiated in the CNS, often in the brain stem. It can be regular and rhythmic, singular or occur in random patterns.
Clonus is a rhythmic contraction that results from sudden or sustained stretching. It originates in the brain or upper motor neurons of the spinal cord and is a hallmark sign of extreme hyperreflexia. Clonus is really an increase in deep tendon reflexes and indicates a loss in the reflex arc's ability to inhibit muscle contraction.
Clonus can be triggered by any movement that causes a quick or sustained stretch of a tendon. Neuros attempt to purposely trigger this sign of neurologic damage by holding your foot and then quickly pushing your toes toward your shin, by quickly flexing your wrist or with quick, forceful downward pressure applied to your knee. Here's a video showing ankle clonus during a neuro exam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCWSCSad0Fo&feature=related
Fasciculations are muscle twitches or contractions in small groups of muscle fibers. Sometimes they go un-noticed but often they are visible under the skin. They can be common and normal or signs of a nervous system disorder. Benign fasciculations often occur in the eyelids, thumbs and legs. They come and go, often increasing with exposure to caffeine, stress or fatigue and decreasing during activity or stretching exercises. They rarely last longer than several days at a time unless they are caused by a disease process.
Muscle problems that originate in the CNS don’t show up as abnormalities on an EMG. Not all PwMS are troubled by undesired muscle movements. When they are, I think the problem is likely to appear and disappear with flare activity more than get progressively worse.
It can be difficult to distinguish these different types of involuntary muscle movement from each other and even harder to guess their cause. Dagun, I think your best bet is to give your neuro the same good description you gave here. Of course it’s always a good idea to watch for and report any patterns in your symptoms or anything you suspect might be triggering them.
Good luck getting some answers at this appointment.
Mary
Clonus is a rhythmic contraction that results from sudden or sustained stretching. It originates in the brain or upper motor neurons of the spinal cord and is a hallmark sign of extreme hyperreflexia. Clonus is really an increase in deep tendon reflexes and indicates a loss in the reflex arc's ability to inhibit muscle contraction.
Clonus can be triggered by any movement that causes a quick or sustained stretch of a tendon. Neuros attempt to purposely trigger this sign of neurologic damage by holding your foot and then quickly pushing your toes toward your shin, by quickly flexing your wrist or with quick, forceful downward pressure applied to your knee. Here's a video showing ankle clonus during a neuro exam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCWSCSad0Fo&feature=related
Fasciculations are muscle twitches or contractions in small groups of muscle fibers. Sometimes they go un-noticed but often they are visible under the skin. They can be common and normal or signs of a nervous system disorder. Benign fasciculations often occur in the eyelids, thumbs and legs. They come and go, often increasing with exposure to caffeine, stress or fatigue and decreasing during activity or stretching exercises. They rarely last longer than several days at a time unless they are caused by a disease process.
Muscle problems that originate in the CNS don’t show up as abnormalities on an EMG. Not all PwMS are troubled by undesired muscle movements. When they are, I think the problem is likely to appear and disappear with flare activity more than get progressively worse.
It can be difficult to distinguish these different types of involuntary muscle movement from each other and even harder to guess their cause. Dagun, I think your best bet is to give your neuro the same good description you gave here. Of course it’s always a good idea to watch for and report any patterns in your symptoms or anything you suspect might be triggering them.
Good luck getting some answers at this appointment.
Mary
And no, not everybody with MS gets it. It's caused by damage to the spinal cord, so you'll see clonus and myoclonus in spinal cord injury patients.
I just updated the Wikipedia article on what causes spasticity (we don't know, but we have some good guesses.) Basically the motor and sensory tracts of your spinal cord are damaged, and sending bad signals to the CNS.
I just updated the Wikipedia article on what causes spasticity (we don't know, but we have some good guesses.) Basically the motor and sensory tracts of your spinal cord are damaged, and sending bad signals to the CNS.
Hope you get some helpful answers tomorrow then. I'm not familiar with all the technical terms for all these symptoms! Let us know how you get on tomorrow
Clonus and myoclonus - here's the difference, according to one source:
The terms clonus (or clonic), myoclonus (or myoclonic), and polymyoclonus have been used indiscriminately to designate rhythmic or arrhythmic series of brief, shock-like muscular contractions associated with disease of the central nervous system.
Clonus refers to a series of rhythmic, monophasic (i.e., unidirectional) contractions and relaxations of a group of muscles, differing in this way from tremors, which are always diphasic or bidirectional. Clonus is more rhythmic and repetitive.
Myoclonus specifies the very rapid, shock-like contraction(s) of a group of muscles, irregular in rhythm and amplitude, and, with few exceptions, asynchronous and asymmetrical in distribution; if such contractions occur singly or are repeated in a restricted group of muscles, such as those of an arm or leg, the phenomenon can be designated as segmental myoclonus or myoclonus simplex. Irregular muscle jerks involving groups of muscle.
I get clonus in my right leg - when I get up in the morning, it'll go whap-whap-whap against the floor for a few seconds. I get myoclonus in my back - kind of a WHAM! of movement, which then subsides.
The terms clonus (or clonic), myoclonus (or myoclonic), and polymyoclonus have been used indiscriminately to designate rhythmic or arrhythmic series of brief, shock-like muscular contractions associated with disease of the central nervous system.
Clonus refers to a series of rhythmic, monophasic (i.e., unidirectional) contractions and relaxations of a group of muscles, differing in this way from tremors, which are always diphasic or bidirectional. Clonus is more rhythmic and repetitive.
Myoclonus specifies the very rapid, shock-like contraction(s) of a group of muscles, irregular in rhythm and amplitude, and, with few exceptions, asynchronous and asymmetrical in distribution; if such contractions occur singly or are repeated in a restricted group of muscles, such as those of an arm or leg, the phenomenon can be designated as segmental myoclonus or myoclonus simplex. Irregular muscle jerks involving groups of muscle.
I get clonus in my right leg - when I get up in the morning, it'll go whap-whap-whap against the floor for a few seconds. I get myoclonus in my back - kind of a WHAM! of movement, which then subsides.
Hi Zoe, I´m seeing neuro tomorrow. You are probably talking about muscletwiches, fasciculations something like that. I´ve also had that for a year now, but the clonus is more like you are jerking, sorry I don´t have the right English words to describe it. Happy to hear your shakiness is better :)
My best,
Dagun
My best,
Dagun
Hi Dagun,
Are you seeing the neuro soon? I've never heard of clonus or myoclonus, I must admit, but I have had some of the twitchy feelings you describe. In the past week I've had lots of new shakiness in my hands and random twitches but it's all eased off now. Hope thing's aren't too bad for you? All the best, Zoe x
Are you seeing the neuro soon? I've never heard of clonus or myoclonus, I must admit, but I have had some of the twitchy feelings you describe. In the past week I've had lots of new shakiness in my hands and random twitches but it's all eased off now. Hope thing's aren't too bad for you? All the best, Zoe x
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