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Avatar universal

is wife having affair, not affair, seamen stains.. confused.. lost

Hi

I found out in 2020 October my wife was basically having an affair, although to this day she won’t label it as this. In the 10 years I have been with my partner  met 2011 (married in 2018) still together today I had always thought we were a fortress, never in our relationship have I questioned her integrity, loyalty or trust. I just was not ever an issue. If she was out which from 2017 was more frequent due to working relationships and business development in the evenings in her career (construction industry) I would never ever question who with, how many, or have issue on some of the ridiculous times she would come home.. I find 5:30am to be crazy to come in maybe 10 times in 3 years. That’s just me and perhaps I’m wrong.

Around 2020 the beginning of the year, I noticed a trend in her going out.. she would always mention a guy called john Paul or Jessie, more often it was always john that she would say she’s meeting with. A message of who she was with would always go something like this (hi babe, just meeting John and other PM for drinks, love you) EXAMPLE (just meeting john, Jessie and others for drinks, rob late love you hope you go out and have a fun night)……… these seem harmless and cute I guess. So John and the other two names were basically the beard in this relationship. Infect john is best friends with a guy called Anthony, someone I also know, iv always thought he was sleazy arrogant and obnoxious, but accepted he was part of the work circle that occasionally impacted my wife’s life and work.

When I figured that Anthony’s name was never being mentioned, but she was always out with john, and this particular company her beards work for, it took me stupidly 3 years for my subconscious to say “hey you need to question this” and around the time alarm bells started ringing my wife came home at 5:30am on a midweek night, sexy black dress and apologetic etc, I was not happy with this and confronted is there someone else. NO she said and we maturely spoke about it the next day, and tbh I was embarrassed and ashamed id questioned it. A few months pass and a credit card statement arrives for her private credit card, it was left open and I happen to glance a payment to a posh hotel, which was the night she came home 5:30am. I should also mention I noticed what I thought were seamen stains all over the interior of the back of black dress. And around the shoulder on one side……… anyway I confronted her about the credit card. And she immediately said she had to take john to a hotel he was so drunk, I then mentioned Anthony name and said what about him, she was so surprised because never have I ever mention this guy before. So she said that she took him and john there and checked them in because so drunk…. This  is so stupid right….. anyway me being diplomatic I had to take her word for it 

6 months pass and again she comes back at 5 30am,  this time I called maybe 20 times and every time I was call canceled after a few rings then claims had no battery and the phone died. She told me she was in a particular location still with 4 clients, but!!! When she canceled my call she accidently screen captured her phone the time I was calling at 5-30am. And the picture went to our laptop, I checked it and she was 5km away from the location she claimed to be at, the location I have investigated is Anthony’s residential area. I confronted this again and again, until finally she broke her story and said she was with 3 clients and Anthony in an office playing a game and drinking, and then she dropped him home at 5_30 am to his wife and kids.

So now I’m thinking and fully paranoid and have so much anger about Anthony and her, and it’s just been a cycle of nonstop questions and thinking about them.

One night my wife came home again super late, took dress of and I notice outrageous stains that look like seamen in the back of dress and all up the back and just outrageous. She denied anything.. she unlocked her phone with face so I snatched it and ran to the toilet.. I looked straight to what’s app, and immediately there is fresh messages  with Anthony, so many kiss emoji’s, and I searched the hotel, to which she told Anthony the ******** story she told me and ask him to back her up on story. Also I saw a pic she sent him of her in lingerie taken in our bedroom. And finally they had been messaging for 3 years from what I could see, and lots of kissing on chat etc. etc., I had to be quick as wife kicking door down and got a knife also… I gave phone back after a minute white as a ghost..

We talked about it the next day, and she admitted that for 3 years she have been texting him, but claims never kissed him, never held hands never had sex never anything physical it’s just texting. She also admitted going to that hotel only with him but because he was drunk so she put him there.. I said he has a wife and kids and you’re taking him there and causing his wife distress.. obviously I just played along with this bs story…

There are other events that have happened and with him, I just don’t know what to do or how to react.

I’ve said I can forgive you if you were having sex, or we can split and be accepting of our loss. But I can’t except the lies. Betrayal, she’s made last 3 years seem like an illusion.. I want to believe her but my gut says she’s lying and perhaps still messaging or even seeing. She promised she’s ended what it was. And I’ve been contacting this Anthony so much that even he blocked me, he lol me when I confronted him first time and said it’s not his problem, and through all rage and testing he’s blocked me.

My thoughts at the moment are eventually find his wife contact and then confront him with 2 options, A) I give your wife all the content I have and times and days of what I thinks happened. B) you tell me the truth now and I’ll leave you alone.

I don’t know what to do..

And recently 2 nights ago. Another black dress and another load of white stains same places you’d expect, and told sat on a wall and must be dirt……
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Avatar universal
I'm just wondering, counseling for what purpose?  Unless you're having mental problems, this problems isn't a problem a therapist can handle unless both of you see the therapist for couple's counseling.  The therapist can't affect your wife's behavior, and if the way you describe it is how it's happening, your wife's behavior is the problem here.  Either she's cheating on you, which seems pretty much the case, or she's not, but again, a therapist can't do anything about that and as long as she's basically gaslighting you -- sorry, but this isn't a trendy word, it's a very old word that a movie made popular when movies were still mostly in black and white so again this isn't a trendy word someone just came up with -- and everyone who knows her is basically staying out of it you're really stuck here with only two choices, which is to stay with her and keep suffering or leave and face the pain now but get to the next phase of your life more quickly.  I'll tell you what I'd do, and that's give her an ultimatum -- either she goes with you to couple's therapy, where the trained therapist will have the skill to get her to say what's really going on, or you're out.  Now, if you start making plans for who gets to stay in the house and who has to leave, she'll realize you have reached your limit of being made a fool of and that will force her to either decide she wants the relationship to continue or she really doesn't.  Pull off that bandaid, man, this has gotta hurt something fierce.  I've been cheated on several times by women but when I found out they admitted it.  They didn't lie about it.  For me, that ended any possibility of a relationship because I didn't want to share, but if you are willing to share, that's fine, but that isn't the only problem here, the bigger problem is you might be living with a sociopath.  Again, I'm not there, so I only have your side of the story, and I know on the internet that's how it goes, but taking your word that this is what's happening, she just isn't at all considerate.  Do you want to share your life with that kind of person?  Also, being in business does often come with a lot of partying but that's with the customer, not fellow employees.  Nobody works until 5:30 in the AM because they've got to go to work and be sharp the next day unless it's wooing a client and these guys aren't clients.  Those are adults, it's not her job to continually take drunks to hotels.  I had a long relationship with a woman who did a lot of drinking with her fellow employees and she often came home drunk, but not at 5:30 in the morning.  Employees drink at happy hour, and the bars just ain't open that late, you know?  And as Mom mentions above, if your wife is messing around, she's not just messing up your life, she's also messing up the guy's wife's life too.  Seriously, if all this is true, you really have the kind of respect for her that makes a marriage work?  At some point, this can't last.  Either she leaves for someone else or you leave because you just can't tolerate her anymore.  So again, make the ultimatum, and tear off the bandaid and get this past you.  If you want therapy, fine, it won't hurt you any, but I just don't see how a therapist who only sees you fixes this when it's your wife causing the problem and the problem appears to be real, not in your head.  This is very odd behavior for a married woman.  This is just my take, and I feel for you, guy.  All the best.
Helpful - 1
3 Comments
And frankly, since you don't appear to have kids, finances aren't a concern here.  If she's acting this way she's the problem and so any involvement of courts will go your way.  She's employed, so she isn't going to lose her ability to live without your financial contribution.  That pretty much removes most of the financial problems as they would all go your way.  
For the most part, I agree with Pax here.

The only thing about counseling is that it can help you work through the crap that is making you think you want to stay, or need to stay, or deserve this, or whatever.

I was in a similar relationship for years. Cheating, drinking, often with work friends, coming home really late or not at all, gaslighting. We had custody of his kids, so it was a bit different, but we did the couples counseling, and after we rattled off all the problems, she said that he needed to stop all the stuff, and she needed me to get strong enough to leave. So it wasn't really conducive to "coupling", but it was an eye opener.

So I wouldn't discount the counseling - he's clinging to this marriage for some reason, and "I love her" at this point isn't a good enough reason. Like you said, it doesn't sound as if they have kids, and she isn't acting like a mother, so lets hope there are no kids, right?

Either way, though, I agree about the bandaid, courts, and it's time. This won't magically get better.
I agree auntie, counseling might help him deal, my point was, if this is what the rest of his life is going to look like therapy won't help the marriage any.  But yes, it might help him deal with this.  I just feel really bad for the guy because I can't believe it was like this for all ten years and it's still a relationship, so to have this happen is just sad.  But I've been cheated on a lot, just bad luck, it happens, and it's just awful while it's going on.  But I was never treated like this, it's like a horror movie if it's as stated.  Sigh.
973741 tn?1342342773
COMMUNITY LEADER
Wow, what a situation.  You are a patient man, I'll tell you that.  I would not be okay with a 10 year marriage in which my partner was out drinking, partying, etc. so often. And I think your gut knows her story about Anthony is likely leaving a heck of a lot out.  You were gracious enough to give her the opportunity to work on the marriage.  I agree that if you were to get over this, she'd have to tell you the truth and she still sounds to be lying. Personally, I WOULD let the wife know.  She has a right. Chances are she suspects or is being left to tend to the kids so much on her own that she's not noticing.  Her husband also would appear to be drinking all the time, coming home crazy hours, etc. But I would consider it doing the woman a favor rather than 'doing it to this family'. That's just me.  Maybe it could blow over but you are saying they carried on AFTER you found out about it? That would be important for me to understand. If that is the case?  I'd let the poor innocent woman he is married to and cheating on know.  You don't have to give her the gruesome details, just tell her she needs to check her husband's phone and look for messages and pictures from a colleague.  

As to your situation, this must be really hard. I understand the kind of in between  of knowing what the situation is and being in disbelief still. If you don't want to do couples counseling at this time, and frankly?  I don't think it will help at all since she is determined to keep lying to you. But I would start counseling on your own. Just for you. To get some clarity.  Why do we want to stay with someone who we can't trust?  That is something for you to understand. I believe in love. But love is an emotion and just that.  People stay in relationships for all sorts of reasons and I don't judge. One other thing. You are the victim.  However, in relationships, we have to consider situations that also may be going on.  Why the need for her to seek an outside form of attention and intimacy?  Some people need an excess of attention. No one person supplies enough.  But other times, the marital or long term relationship isn't supplying everything one needs as well (in other words, how was your relationship in general during this time?).
Helpful - 1
1 Comments
Back to talking to Anthony's wife.  I guess the only downside is that if you two are to have your wife begin to be honest and admit what has happened and then begin to heal the relationship, blowing up Anthony's home life could make a situation that makes this more dramatic and harder to move past, if that makes sense. But I tell ya, I feel sorry for that woman and do believe she should know so she can make her own decisions about her marriage.
134578 tn?1642048000
See a counselor and decide how to handle it. You have the evidence you need, don't go see his wife, just see a counselor.
Helpful - 1
8 Comments
I don't ever think i could do that to this family.. Rage filled occasionally but, i just wouldn't be able to do that.. it was more about having leverage on this 3 years event because i have nothing except my imagination.

i just think there monsters to not give any consideration to me in anyway, for closure.. i hope that make sense, it feels like being asked to forget 3 years of my life so she can forget what she did. even though currently saying she did nothing.

yes i agree with you 100 percent to see a councilor.

I'm grateful this was even read, and for your reply.
It will help a lot just to lay it out to another person. A good counselor will help you discuss what happened and what you think happened, and work out your feelings, and decide what to do next. When you said "I don't think i could do that to this family," I assume you meant you couldn't really go talk to the guy's wife. That's a feeling worth continuing with -- your relationship with your wife is your issue, not his relationship with his wife. Yours is going to take all your energy. Talking to a counselor doesn't necessarily lead you to breaking off the marriage. It just helps you clarify what you are feeling and how to deal with that. What you suspect, is heartbreaking for you. You need someone to run this all by who can give you a supportive ear. If you don't have anyone you can call, ask your doctor for a recommendation.
Hi

When i said "I don't think i could do that to this family," you are correct, i just wouldn't confront or go to his wife etc. it was a thought that id have leverage to frighten him into giving me some clarity, he essentially laughed his way through our conversations over 6 months (sporadic hate filled messages to him) and just told me not his problem. the arrogance he has, we used to work in same company, never new him personally, iv met him on some occasion at a party with my wife before. we share mutual friends. so we know each other if in a bar or office.

i reached out to a colleague one lunchtime at work. who used to work with my wife but considered her a very close friend, she wasn't close with my wife and they have nothing in common, but i reached out to her and asked her if she thought anything was going on with Anthony and Michelle (my wife)

she replied saying "I'm  not going to lie to you, there have been allot of rumors', but never personally seen anything"

and then my friend blocked me.....


i will consult with council soon, and look into finding an appropriate person, in the right location for me. i don't want to do zoom calls for this.

thanks again.
Soon like this week or next, I hope. But don't put your nose in the air if the best person is only doing Zoom calls right now. I know more than one person in therapy via Zoom calls (and have been doing it that way only; they didn't go to that therapist before in person) and they are getting really good results. Maybe people just cut to the chase more on Zoom calls than they do when they're face to face. But it works surprisingly well.

Finally, given that if your suspicions turn out to be correct, or even if your wife is just gaslighting you about something less dire than an actual physical affair, please protect yourself against a blowup of the marriage in practical ways, such as, financially. If all your money is accessible to her, begin to have your paycheck sent to your own account and hers to her own, and set up a joint account only for household expenses. If you have big joint savings, see about splitting it up by putting half of it in your name only. Things like that. I'm not saying you are heading for a divorce, because as you say, you don't actually know what's happening. But since you could be, make sure you can't wake up one day and learn your wife and all your assets are gone.
i would look this weekend proactively and consult my wife about my intentions to meet with a person about the issue.

i don't want to leave my wife, and sadly i can say this hole heartedly the sex/ physical betrayal wont make me leave, its the deceit and lies that would make me, iv accused her of protecting him over my decaying emotions and thoughts, and when you aid gaslighting that has been phrase iv used again and again at home, and ignorantly my wife refuse to recognize this word and just says I'm being trendy using a trendy word... uhhh....... brick wall.....

regarding all financials, we are totally safe and split and have been since the beginning of our relationship, and households are joint, shared.

regarding this (Finally, given that if your suspicions turn out to be correct) honestly i will never ever know, 2 people know and the 2 people will never tell me. i know Michelle well enough to know she put the information in to a suitcase and chained it up, cast in concrete and dropped in deepest ocean, and he will never tell me. so i only have what i currently have.... ill never know.


so its do i move on and be a fool. but save a marriage, a marriage want to be in. or walkaway and loose the women iv fallen in love with and means the world to me.

Well, if she is accusing you of just being trendy by using the word "gaslighting," for heaven's sake stop using it. Say something else. Maybe it's that you don't think she is being candid. Perhaps she is being truthful as far as she goes, just not telling you the complete story. (A couple can be pretty close without there being coitus.) As you say, there is no way to find out what happened, especially if you don't want to end the marriage.  So, decide with a counselor what you do want, don't waste your breath trying to get her to make admissions.

I'd also question your statement "i would look this weekend proactively and consult my wife about my intentions to meet with a person about the issue." What exactly is supposed to come out of you "consulting" her about your "intentions to meet with a person about the issue"?  You posit this as though you saying it will cause her to think "He's going to see a counselor? Oh, no! This changes everything!" but it sure won't. Seeing a counselor is for your sake, not about her. If she's already indifferent to your feelings enough to be dressing up and staying out until 5:30 am, you telling her dramatically that you plan to see a therapist isn't going to change that.  Right now you have to do what you do for you, not because you hope it will somehow move her into better behavior.
i have stopped using "gaslighting" and had just each time explained my interpretation and what i think was happening.

consult with wife, isn't to ask permission, or scare her, or to give any uncomfortable feeling about why and the possible process or adjustment that may come, i just merely mean i would tell her "this is what im going to do for my self for us, i don't no how to rationally forgive and i want to be a better person, and admit that I need help" id hope possibly it would influence her to do the same and perhaps separately, i understand the betrayer needs to forgive themselves. i have no idea.. but i  can only imagine that its a good idea for her to also have a rational chat without me to someone else, to direct or construct or guide a process for her, a pathway for us.. i have no idea.

i met with a physiatrist last Friday for lunch, a friend, a good friend.. and id spoken just vaguely on my problems, only enough for guidance. obviously as its a friend he wouldn't take me on as a client. but wanted to catch up this weekend and had mentioned some recommendations of people i could see.. if i wanted to.

i have had counseling in the past, and found the experience to be constructive and helpful. so I'm not put off by meeting with a stranger and confronting issues.

what mite seem clear to others, is not clear to me, and what seems obvious is not so obvious to me, please understand iv spoken really to know one of this. I'm sorry if I'm coming off naïve, ignorant.. totally stupid or anything like this.

to post this feels like a step in a positive direction, to verbalize what's happened.. i don't know how to explain but its not a feeling iv had in awhile, perhaps liberated in some way.
I don't think you sound naive or stupid, I think you sound like someone in a painful spot. But don't assume that your wife will feel moved to change, nor is she likely to be inspired by your behavior in seeing a counselor to do the same thing herself.  She is doing what she wants to do. If your already-expressed distress hasn't moved her to change, she probably won't until the whatever it is (to be generous, let's say it's just a second childhood or an emotional affair) is over. Neither wishful thinking nor setting a good example will do much to someone who has the bit in her teeth and is running where she wants. The only person you can control in this situation is yourself.
134578 tn?1642048000
The reason I suggested counseling is that apparently you have just hunkered down to stay in a situation that makes you miserable. As jessi says, you might benefit greatly from hearing what someone thinks about you even staying in this situation.
Helpful - 0
2 Comments
Yes I noticed the same. It looks like he is really trying to stay in this marriage no matter what. He used "maybe I'm imagining this" or something to that extent multiple times trying to pin the blame on him instead of her. I think she has a way of manipulating him like "we had and adult conversation about this, and she explained it to me" which proved to be a lie, and also I feel the fact that her kicking the door down with the knife in hand didn't get enough attention. Domestic abuse is just as bad when it happens to men.
Sometimes it seems like it would be more painful to acknowledge what is happening than to keep kidding oneself. But in this case I think if he would talk to a counselor and lay everything out that has been happening, a counselor could guide him into some more constructive thinking about what he's trying to accomplish by willfully ignoring so much. He sounds like he deserves to take care of himself, because she is so clearly not.
Avatar universal
I think this is plain on the nose. She is 100% cheating on you. I have never ever met a woman who is married but goes out so often and comes home this late. Also how hard she tries to look sexy, she is definitely trying to impress someone. Also have you seen that dress ever before? If the answer is 'no' then she bought it to look pretty for someone else and not you.
The fact she rejected your phone calls and then claims the battery was dead only shows she isn't even trying to come up with a legitimate answer, she just knows you will swallow whatever she serves and is shameless about it.
She clearly doesn't care nor respects you if she's acting like this. I know 10 years is a lot and at this point you have built her up in your mind to a status of a goddess but trust me, start looking at hear realistically. She is just another human, with another human flaws. She is a woman in the workplace full of men, she is getting a lot of attention and yes sometimes you stumble on the road, but she is just going with it and enjoying it.
Counseling might help you deal with the marriage as is, but will never repair what she did. And cheating isn't the worst of it, it's the lies. I suggest you leave that marriage. I know it sounds like end game scenario and worst possible outcome but trust me, in a long run it will be worth it.
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13167 tn?1327194124
If you don't have children,  I'd say walk out.  
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