Aa
tremors during sleep
I'm a 60 year old men, in excellent health, except for experiencing tremors during sleep that wake me up and have difficulty going back to sleep. As I start to fall sleep again, I feel these "rumbleling" (tremors) around my upper body. I immediately wake up again. These tremors last for about 10-15 seconds after I wake up. The first time I experienced this condition was exactly two years ago. It lasted for about four days and it simply went away. Except for minor incidents (by "minor" I mean I experience the tremors for about two nights and go away) with no major disruptions in my sleep patters. Last week, however, I experienced another episode which does not seem to be going away. The first two nights I simply could not go back to sleep at all. My body wanted to go back to sleep, but, as I mentioned above, everytime I fell sleep the tremors woke me up. I'm on my 9th day and there seems to be no sign of letting up. I went to see my doctor on the fourth day--He prescribed Zolpidem, which I have been taken since. Interestingly enough, even under the influence of the sleeping pill, the tremor wake me up, but they are short-lived since I go back to sleep almost immediately. My doctor said to take the medicine for about two weeks and essencially placed me on a "wait-and-see" mode. My concern at this point is "how long can I possobly survived on this medicine. Does any body "out there" know anything about this condition? As you can immagine, it is extremely debilitating. I'm, for my age, a very atheletic man who is the right things, no vices and bikes to work every day--About
twenty miles a day. Married with two grown children. My job is very stress-free and very enjoyable. Any ideas? Thank you very much.
twenty miles a day. Married with two grown children. My job is very stress-free and very enjoyable. Any ideas? Thank you very much.
P.S. If you're going to post you might want to log back in to the site first. Otherwise you will be prompted, and will have to get to the bottom of the thread a second time.
8 Comments
I did get a notification of your post so that seems to be working now, which is great. I have not posted for a long time, but wanted to let everyone know that the vibrations I felt in my bladder/pelvic area have completely disappeared since I had an infected root canal tooth redone last January.
I am planning to have an implant done but wanted the bone to regenerate that was destroyed by the infection so I don't have to do a bone graft.
What I found interesting is the meridian associated with that particular tooth is to the Kidney/Bladder area, which makes sense if that electrical pathway was being disrupted with the infection.
I don't know if anyone else has any root canal teeth or cavitations from extracted wisdom teeth, but if you do, I would highly recommend getting a cone beam scan to find out if there is any infection. It can detect hidden dental infections much better that regular dental x-rays.
My dental appointment is the 15 Sep so I will let you know how it goes.
I am planning to have an implant done but wanted the bone to regenerate that was destroyed by the infection so I don't have to do a bone graft.
What I found interesting is the meridian associated with that particular tooth is to the Kidney/Bladder area, which makes sense if that electrical pathway was being disrupted with the infection.
I don't know if anyone else has any root canal teeth or cavitations from extracted wisdom teeth, but if you do, I would highly recommend getting a cone beam scan to find out if there is any infection. It can detect hidden dental infections much better that regular dental x-rays.
My dental appointment is the 15 Sep so I will let you know how it goes.
That's fantastic! Another success story and line of investigation for others. Thanks for returning here!
ricepeg you are so welcome. I truly hope everyone will look into any hidden dental infections they might have.
The vibrations I originally felt in my neck were resolved when I went in for several physical therapy visits after a chiropractic treatment.
But the vibration in the bladder and pelvic area would come and go at various times no matter how many physical therapy treatments I did until last January when I had my root canal tooth redone. I have had to do several protocols with a certified nutritionist to try and clear up all of the infection and I am now able to fall asleep and stay asleep for 6-7 hours now. I am feeling so much better and I hope this will help everyone here as well.
The vibrations I originally felt in my neck were resolved when I went in for several physical therapy visits after a chiropractic treatment.
But the vibration in the bladder and pelvic area would come and go at various times no matter how many physical therapy treatments I did until last January when I had my root canal tooth redone. I have had to do several protocols with a certified nutritionist to try and clear up all of the infection and I am now able to fall asleep and stay asleep for 6-7 hours now. I am feeling so much better and I hope this will help everyone here as well.
This is to bring you up to date on my dental procedures. I had tooth no. 9, my root canal tooth, removed along with 4 other back teeth mostly on the upper jaw. I also had all 4 of my cavitations cleaned out.
I am still working with my certified nutritionist to clear up all the rest of the infection that had spread throughout my system from my hidden dental infections. She is doing this with herbal protocols.
I am sleeping 6-7 hrs. every night and no vibrations whatsoever. I am dealing with SIBO along with Hashimoto's, but am feeling so relieved to be able to sleep now.
The teeth that needed to be removed did not have any cavities...they just slowly died over the years and then had hidden infections that are much more easily detected with a cone beam scan rather than regular dental x-rays. I have always gone for my regular checkups and dental cleanings, but not to a biological dentist.
Hope others here will find this helpful, too!
I am still working with my certified nutritionist to clear up all the rest of the infection that had spread throughout my system from my hidden dental infections. She is doing this with herbal protocols.
I am sleeping 6-7 hrs. every night and no vibrations whatsoever. I am dealing with SIBO along with Hashimoto's, but am feeling so relieved to be able to sleep now.
The teeth that needed to be removed did not have any cavities...they just slowly died over the years and then had hidden infections that are much more easily detected with a cone beam scan rather than regular dental x-rays. I have always gone for my regular checkups and dental cleanings, but not to a biological dentist.
Hope others here will find this helpful, too!
Hi iegen, thanks for your post. any updates to the situation. thanks for your input
Hi specialmom, you are so welcome!
As far as an update, I am still doing herbal protocols with my nutritionist (2 yrs.) and I was able to sleep last night a full 9 hrs. I have been getting a good 6-7 hrs. each night so I am excited I was able to do 9 hrs. last night. No tremors, no having to get up and go to the bathroom.
I have not had any tremors for quite a long time now. I can't help but feel they were being caused, in my case, from these hidden dental infections, which may have also caused my Hashimoto's (autoimmune).
Hopefully, this will be helpful to you. Would love to hear how you are doing.
As far as an update, I am still doing herbal protocols with my nutritionist (2 yrs.) and I was able to sleep last night a full 9 hrs. I have been getting a good 6-7 hrs. each night so I am excited I was able to do 9 hrs. last night. No tremors, no having to get up and go to the bathroom.
I have not had any tremors for quite a long time now. I can't help but feel they were being caused, in my case, from these hidden dental infections, which may have also caused my Hashimoto's (autoimmune).
Hopefully, this will be helpful to you. Would love to hear how you are doing.
more updates please? x
have you been ok with implants?
Well, this is a first. I can induce my vibrations by listening to certain low-frequency tones in earphones. It takes about a second or two to start, and stops immediately as I stop the sound. I can feel it in my face and neck quite palpably, and also down through the chest.
This one, for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQLyBj2TCuc
One audio clip that does the same for me says its tone is 1.8hz, which is in the theta range related to light sleep. But I really don't know what to make of it yet, and haven't had time to research. I suspect it's not brainwave entrainment, although I am very open to sleep deprivation as a cause. It could easily be a dysfunction of the ear (My tinnitus is not pulsatile, however. It's of the ringing kind.) Weird though.
This one, for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQLyBj2TCuc
One audio clip that does the same for me says its tone is 1.8hz, which is in the theta range related to light sleep. But I really don't know what to make of it yet, and haven't had time to research. I suspect it's not brainwave entrainment, although I am very open to sleep deprivation as a cause. It could easily be a dysfunction of the ear (My tinnitus is not pulsatile, however. It's of the ringing kind.) Weird though.
6 Comments
Very interesting. Do you need to be lying down trying to sleep to get this effect. Or does it happen regardless of your position? I just tried it at work while standing at my standing desk and didn't get any vibrations although it might have made me feel a little uneasy.
BTW, a quick Google says that delta waves are between 0.5 and 2 Hz and theta waves are between 6-10 Hz. Delta waves are associated with deep sleep (a/k/a slow wave sleep or stages N3-4). Theta waves are associated with lighter sleep (stages N1-N2). So it seems like what you've been listening to are Delta waves associated with deep sleep.
This happens when I am sitting upright, so doesn't require me to be lying down, no. Another frequency gave me what I think is a more moderate version of the same thing: less frequent facial muscle fasciculations (1-2 per second).
I don't consciously feel anxious when I hear the sound. And I don't think it represents a sudden, loud sound that triggers PTSD sufferers. Perhaps, though, it's a dysfunction of that reflexive hammer designed to close the eardrum to sudden loud sounds. Years ago I wondered about that because I had hyperacusis, but it has mostly resolved. On one occasion I did hear that pulsatile tinnitus talked about here, while I was hypnogogic, so it's just possible that I have it while sleeping without being aware, and that it is perceived as a traumatic event during sleep, leading to a PTSD-like response. I did listen to a recording of my snoring in case that induced my tremor, but it didn't (but of course my actual snoring is also an internal vibration).
Here's the detailed summary of my experience with vibrations:
A year or so before my onset of this problem, I was going through a period of stress and anxiety, and I noticed infrequent electrical vibrations while falling asleep, and a bit of neuralgia on top of my head and on my face. It passed. When the present condition came on, I initially fainted (very likely a vagal response) and experienced a rapid and overwhelming onset period for a few weeks, where my CNS felt like it was plugged into a car battery; this moved progressively to different locations of my body each day and was more pronounced when lying down for sure, until it resolved to a much more bearable level, roughly where I'm still at a year later. During that period I also had inappropriate tachycardia, and in combination with high nausea it got so bad on one occasion that I went to hospital. Both could be explained by autonomic dysfunction, and the nausea could also be explained by the adrenal fatigue theory.
My daytime tremor/vibration is at a subtle 5-10% level in the mornings. Around mid-afternoon it goes to about 20-30%, and then in the evenings around 50%. If it jumps higher I will tend to rapidly tap the back of my neck with my fingers and it will cut out entirely, until shortly creeping back in. I used to be able to tap my forehead, but this isn't sufficient anymore. I can also feel nauseous in keeping with the level of tremor, and it gets worse with caffeine. I found an OTC anticholinergic that seems to cut the tremor, although I need to complete my testing of that to be sure (if I can successfully cut the tremor that way I'll also then experiment with the sound and with being horizontal, to learn more).
As far as I can tell, my sudden onset experience and my daytime vibrations differ from everyone here, although one or more here mentioned daytime vibrations early on for them. But my pre-onset phase, which went away, shows me that I could have ended up here gradually even if I didn't have the dramatic onset experience.
On top of all that, I have what you all seem to describe, in terms of a phenomenon lying down and falling asleep, and then during waking up, which quickly dissipates. In the mornings the activity is localized in my diaphragm area, although I feel tingly neuro issues all over as an effect. While falling asleep, it used to be in my upper body but now it's commonly in my lower legs most noticeably. (I also have restless leg.)
I don't consciously feel anxious when I hear the sound. And I don't think it represents a sudden, loud sound that triggers PTSD sufferers. Perhaps, though, it's a dysfunction of that reflexive hammer designed to close the eardrum to sudden loud sounds. Years ago I wondered about that because I had hyperacusis, but it has mostly resolved. On one occasion I did hear that pulsatile tinnitus talked about here, while I was hypnogogic, so it's just possible that I have it while sleeping without being aware, and that it is perceived as a traumatic event during sleep, leading to a PTSD-like response. I did listen to a recording of my snoring in case that induced my tremor, but it didn't (but of course my actual snoring is also an internal vibration).
Here's the detailed summary of my experience with vibrations:
A year or so before my onset of this problem, I was going through a period of stress and anxiety, and I noticed infrequent electrical vibrations while falling asleep, and a bit of neuralgia on top of my head and on my face. It passed. When the present condition came on, I initially fainted (very likely a vagal response) and experienced a rapid and overwhelming onset period for a few weeks, where my CNS felt like it was plugged into a car battery; this moved progressively to different locations of my body each day and was more pronounced when lying down for sure, until it resolved to a much more bearable level, roughly where I'm still at a year later. During that period I also had inappropriate tachycardia, and in combination with high nausea it got so bad on one occasion that I went to hospital. Both could be explained by autonomic dysfunction, and the nausea could also be explained by the adrenal fatigue theory.
My daytime tremor/vibration is at a subtle 5-10% level in the mornings. Around mid-afternoon it goes to about 20-30%, and then in the evenings around 50%. If it jumps higher I will tend to rapidly tap the back of my neck with my fingers and it will cut out entirely, until shortly creeping back in. I used to be able to tap my forehead, but this isn't sufficient anymore. I can also feel nauseous in keeping with the level of tremor, and it gets worse with caffeine. I found an OTC anticholinergic that seems to cut the tremor, although I need to complete my testing of that to be sure (if I can successfully cut the tremor that way I'll also then experiment with the sound and with being horizontal, to learn more).
As far as I can tell, my sudden onset experience and my daytime vibrations differ from everyone here, although one or more here mentioned daytime vibrations early on for them. But my pre-onset phase, which went away, shows me that I could have ended up here gradually even if I didn't have the dramatic onset experience.
On top of all that, I have what you all seem to describe, in terms of a phenomenon lying down and falling asleep, and then during waking up, which quickly dissipates. In the mornings the activity is localized in my diaphragm area, although I feel tingly neuro issues all over as an effect. While falling asleep, it used to be in my upper body but now it's commonly in my lower legs most noticeably. (I also have restless leg.)
Yes. What you've described is definitely more complicated than my situation. However, it does seem that everyone started with some sort of physical/emotional stressor. I wonder if a *short* treatment with a benzodiazepine might break some sort of cycle with all this. Maybe that's part of what helped Toby. What is the OTC anticholinergic you tried?
It's Travacalm, which contains both Dimenhydrinate (50mg) and Hyocine Hydrobromide (0.2mg).
Ah OK. Similar to Dramamine.
Here is a completely different idea based on ricepeg's neuro's hypothesis that the vibrations are a symptom of some sort of PTSD. There is something called Dynamic Neural Retraining which is supposed to help you re-wire your limbic system to, among other things, deal with the symptoms of PTSD. I'm looking into this now. Google it if you want to know more. Attending the program is a bit expensive, but you can also get the program on DVD. Just a thought on a different line of attach.
1 Comments
I have looked into something similar from Ashok Gupta. It's on my list of things to try, and I can see it possibly helping.
Update: I had some Tegretol (Carbamazepine) left over from the last time I tried it so decided to try it again. At just 200mg (which is a very low dose), my vibrations completely disappeared. However, I'm still waking up a few times during the night, but without the vibrations and accompanying anxiety. Tegretol is an anticholinergic and a mood stabilizer so both of these properties could be helping me. This says to me that the vibrations are a symptom, but not the cause. No surprise there. I don't like these types of drugs, but IMO it's better than a benzo and again, this is a very low dose.
I've also been continuing with the alpha lipoic acid so maybe this is helping as well.
I've been reading a lot lately about the psychological/neurological effects of sleep disordered breathing (e.g. sleep apnea) and I can easily see how untreated or insufficiently treated SDB could produce the type of symptoms we're experiencing. Some of what I've read supports the PTSD hypotheses that ricepeg's neuro came up with. I'm going to try CPAP again in addition to my dental appliance to see what happens. I'm also going to visit the sleep neuro I saw a while back to see if she might have any additional insights/suggestions. I'm not very hopeful on that front.
Regarding the acetyl-l-carnitine (ALCAR) and palpitations. I found a couple of posts where people were complaining about this. One person said that she realized that what was really happening was that the ALCAR was causing reflux. Reflux/GERD can result in heart palpitations (as it did with me a few years ago). She took an OTC acid reducer and the problem went away and she was able to continue taking ALCAR. I suppose it's also possible that the acid suppressor was interfering with metabolizing the ALCAR. I've long wondered whether my reflux issues could actually be causing the vibrations (or at least the wakenings that cause the vibrations) as well. So this all seems to fit...sort of. I may start taking a PPI (although I don't like those medications either) for a short while to see what happens. Note that some forms of SDB can actually cause reflux by creating a vacuum that sucks up stomach acids.
I've also been continuing with the alpha lipoic acid so maybe this is helping as well.
I've been reading a lot lately about the psychological/neurological effects of sleep disordered breathing (e.g. sleep apnea) and I can easily see how untreated or insufficiently treated SDB could produce the type of symptoms we're experiencing. Some of what I've read supports the PTSD hypotheses that ricepeg's neuro came up with. I'm going to try CPAP again in addition to my dental appliance to see what happens. I'm also going to visit the sleep neuro I saw a while back to see if she might have any additional insights/suggestions. I'm not very hopeful on that front.
Regarding the acetyl-l-carnitine (ALCAR) and palpitations. I found a couple of posts where people were complaining about this. One person said that she realized that what was really happening was that the ALCAR was causing reflux. Reflux/GERD can result in heart palpitations (as it did with me a few years ago). She took an OTC acid reducer and the problem went away and she was able to continue taking ALCAR. I suppose it's also possible that the acid suppressor was interfering with metabolizing the ALCAR. I've long wondered whether my reflux issues could actually be causing the vibrations (or at least the wakenings that cause the vibrations) as well. So this all seems to fit...sort of. I may start taking a PPI (although I don't like those medications either) for a short while to see what happens. Note that some forms of SDB can actually cause reflux by creating a vacuum that sucks up stomach acids.
3 Comments
Wow, that's great. I'd be very interested to know if you've continued to have success with Tegretol. I plan to try natural anticholinergics if I can find any. Regarding the mood stabilizer effect, I have definitely had a change in my emotional regulation that I associate with this condition. I will shed tears while watching television, etc., where I wouldn't do so before. It could easily just be the drain of the condition, but I also wonder whether it could be causal.
I don't think it's causal. This condition is very draining. In general, when I've had a bad night, I'm a wreck the next day.
I agree 100% with feeling like a wreck the next day. Generally, the worse the vibrations the worse I'll feel the next day. For me the vibrations are more than a sleep disruption - they seem to be a symptom of some else that's going on.
I haven't checked in for a while because I haven't had anything new to add until recently. My tremors have been minimal to moderate and only in the last 2-3 hours of sleep. So basically what they have been for quite some time now.
I followed the methylation thread to every possible end and in summary methylfolate is a good thing. Same with folinic acid however pretty much anything else that is a methyl donor doesn't agree with me.
After several false starts looking at other things I focused again on ammonia. Yucca has consistently been a good thing. A while ago I added L-ornithine and that was a good thing. Then a couple of weeks ago I added carnitine fumarate. L-carnitine resolved my tremors but gave me wicked palpitations. I was hoping the fumarate version would be better and it seems to be. Resolved what little tremors were left but I did get minimal palpitations.
GI bacteria are one of the causes of ammonia (which would explain the GI connection) so I decided to try adding FOS and VSL3 (probiotic). I tried VSL3 before with minimal results but with FOS this seems to be a very good combination for me. My tinnitus is 1/4 of what it's been and I've had no tremors at all that I'm aware of in spite of slacking a bit on the ornithine/carnitine/yucca. To me the decrease in tinnitus is as telling as the tremors themselves since the 2 are definitely related for me.
I followed the methylation thread to every possible end and in summary methylfolate is a good thing. Same with folinic acid however pretty much anything else that is a methyl donor doesn't agree with me.
After several false starts looking at other things I focused again on ammonia. Yucca has consistently been a good thing. A while ago I added L-ornithine and that was a good thing. Then a couple of weeks ago I added carnitine fumarate. L-carnitine resolved my tremors but gave me wicked palpitations. I was hoping the fumarate version would be better and it seems to be. Resolved what little tremors were left but I did get minimal palpitations.
GI bacteria are one of the causes of ammonia (which would explain the GI connection) so I decided to try adding FOS and VSL3 (probiotic). I tried VSL3 before with minimal results but with FOS this seems to be a very good combination for me. My tinnitus is 1/4 of what it's been and I've had no tremors at all that I'm aware of in spite of slacking a bit on the ornithine/carnitine/yucca. To me the decrease in tinnitus is as telling as the tremors themselves since the 2 are definitely related for me.
2 Comments
Quick update - to test my theory of ammonia, FOS & VSL I didn't take anything else yesterday (yucca, etc) and this morning woke up with moderate tremors. So FOS and VSL on their own aren't enough. I'm taking yucca, ornithine and carnitine fumarate again today so it will be interesting to see what the next couple of mornings are like.
Quick update - to test my theory of ammonia, FOS & VSL I didn't take anything else yesterday (yucca, etc) and this morning woke up with moderate tremors. So FOS and VSL on their own aren't enough. I'm taking yucca, ornithine and carnitine fumarate again today so it will be interesting to see what the next couple of mornings are like.
Things continue to go well. Sleep is peaceful. I've upped the amount of methylfolate to 800 mcg from 400 mcg. At the 800mcg level I haven't had the need for niacin or anything else. So it's looking more and more like MTHFR is the root cause of things.
Out of curiously I bought some TMG (betaine) because I'm still trying to figure out why the betaine HCl helped. Betaine is a methyl donor and based on my negative reactions to other methyl donors (SAME in particular) the HCl should not have been a good thing. But it was. The TMG agreed with me however since things are pretty good these days I can't make much of a judgement. But it definitely wasn't a bad thing.
It's been almost a month since I started taking methylfolate so a this point I believe this is the solution for me. I also feel better all the way around.
Out of curiously I bought some TMG (betaine) because I'm still trying to figure out why the betaine HCl helped. Betaine is a methyl donor and based on my negative reactions to other methyl donors (SAME in particular) the HCl should not have been a good thing. But it was. The TMG agreed with me however since things are pretty good these days I can't make much of a judgement. But it definitely wasn't a bad thing.
It's been almost a month since I started taking methylfolate so a this point I believe this is the solution for me. I also feel better all the way around.
Have an Answer?
You are reading content posted in the Sleep Disorders Community
Healing home remedies for common ailments
Dr. Steven Park reveals 5 reasons why breathing through your nose could change your life
Want to wake up rested and refreshed?
A list of national and international resources and hotlines to help connect you to needed health and medical services.
Herpes sores blister, then burst, scab and heal.
Herpes spreads by oral, vaginal and anal sex.
