Aa
Rampage mirrors threats made on YouTube video
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20140524/college-community-shooting-e578ccbe44.html
By RAQUEL MARIA DILLON, MARTHA MENDOZA and JULIE WATSON
GOLETA, Calif. (AP) — The gunman fired for 10 minutes from his BMW as he made his way down streets filled with university students walking, biking and skateboarding in the beach community near Santa Barbara, picking off people one by one in a deadly rampage that chillingly mirrored threats made on a YouTube video posted that same night. Seven people were killed in all, including the gunman.
A Hollywood director believes his son was the lone gunman found dead behind the wheel of the BMW that crashed into a parked car, ending the shootings Friday night in the beach neighborhood of Isla Vista near the University of California, Santa Barbara, the family's lawyer said Saturday. Seven others remained hospitalized with serious injuries.
Authorities were not naming the shooter yet but said they had identified him. Investigators were analyzing a YouTube video in which a young man sits in a car and looks at the camera, laughing often, and says he is going to take his revenge against humanity.
"It's obviously the work of a madman," Santa Barbara County Sheriff Bill Brown said.
Alan Shifman — a lawyer who represents Peter Rodger, one of the assistant directors on "The Hunger Games" — issued a statement on behalf of the family saying they believe Rodger's son, Elliot Rodger, was the shooter.
"The Rodger family offers their deepest compassion and sympathy to the families involved in this terrible tragedy. We are experiencing the most inconceivable pain, and our hearts go out to everybody involved," Shifman said.
The shootings started around 9:30 p.m. in Isla Vista, a roughly half-square-mile community next to UC Santa Barbara's campus and picturesque beachside cliffs.
Alexander Mattera, 23, said his friend Chris Johnson was walking out of an improv comedy show when he was shot in front of a popular pizza place. He stumbled into a nearby house.
"He walked into these random guys' house bleeding," he said.
Mattera was sitting at a bonfire with friends when at least one gunshot whizzed overhead. The friends ran for cover when they heard the barrage of gunfire.
"We heard so many gunshots. It was unbelievable. I thought they were firecrackers. There had to have been at least like two guns. There were a lot of shots," he said.
The gunman got into two gun battles before crashing his black BMW into a parked car. It wasn't immediately clear whether he was killed by gunfire or if he committed suicide. A semi-automatic handgun was recovered.
Describing the shootings as "premeditated mass murder," Brown said a YouTube video posted Friday that shows a young man describing plans to shoot women appears to be connected to the attack.
He describes loneliness and frustration because "girls have never been attracted to me," and says, at age 22, he is still a virgin. The video, which is almost seven minutes long, appears scripted. The identity of the person in the video could not be independently confirmed.
Shifman, the attorney for the Rodger family, said the family called police several weeks ago after being alarmed by YouTube videos "regarding suicide and the killing of people" that Rodger's son, Elliot Rodger, had been posting.
Police interviewed Elliot Rodger and found him to be a "perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human," he added. Police did not find a history of guns, but did say Rodger "didn't have a lot of friends," had trouble making friends and didn't have any girlfriends.
Isla Vista, which is centered on university life with outdoor cafes, bike shops, burger joints, sororities and fraternities blocks from the beach, was shrouded in fog and unusually quiet Saturday.
Police tape crisscrossed Isla Vista streets, while blood was still visible on the asphalt Saturday. Bullet holes could be seen in the window of the IV Deli Mark and a parked car. The wrecked BMW driven by the shooter remained on the street, its windshield smashed in and its driver's door wide open.
Tyler Martin, a UCSB freshman from Danville, California, was visiting his injured friend at Santa Barbara Cottage Hospital, where the seven victims were being treated.
He said two friends were riding longboards near his home about 9:30 p.m. when a car suddenly came up from behind and ran over one and clipped the other. Martin ran outside to help and tended to his most injured friend.
"As I was leaning over and trying to comfort him — he was in a lot of pain, obviously — I heard pop, pop, pop," Martin said.
The friend who was run over suffered leg injuries and was in surgery Saturday. The other friend was not seriously hurt.
In a statement, the university said several students were shot and taken to the hospital and it was "shocked and saddened" by the tragedy.
"This is almost the kind of event that's impossible to prevent and almost impossible to predict," UC President Janet Napolitano told reporters after giving the commencement speech at Laney College in Oakland, California.
Calif. Gov. Jerry Brown offered his condolences to the victims' families, saying he was saddened to learn "of this senseless tragedy."
The family is not ready to speak publicly yet, but wants to cooperate fully with police, public agencies and "any other person who feels that they need to help prevent these situations from ever occurring again," Shifman said.
"My client's mission in life will be to try to prevent any such tragedies from ever happening again," he said. "This country, this world, needs to address mental illness and the ramifications from not recognizing these illnesses."
Shifman said the family is "staunchly against guns" and supports gun-control laws. "They are extremely, extremely upset that anybody was hurt under these circumstances," he said.
Isla Vista has a reputation for excessive partying. Last month, an annual spring bash spiraled into violence as young people clashed with police and tossed rocks and bottles. A university police officer and four deputies were injured and 130 people were arrested.
The community has experienced other tragedies in the past.
In 2001, the son of "Ally McBeal" TV director Daniel Attias ran down four pedestrians with his car on a crowded Isla Vista street. Witnesses testified that part-time college student David Attias got of the car and shouted: "I am the angel of death."
David Attias was ruled insane after he was convicted of second-degree murder and is locked up in a state mental hospital.
By RAQUEL MARIA DILLON, MARTHA MENDOZA and JULIE WATSON
GOLETA, Calif. (AP) — The gunman fired for 10 minutes from his BMW as he made his way down streets filled with university students walking, biking and skateboarding in the beach community near Santa Barbara, picking off people one by one in a deadly rampage that chillingly mirrored threats made on a YouTube video posted that same night. Seven people were killed in all, including the gunman.
A Hollywood director believes his son was the lone gunman found dead behind the wheel of the BMW that crashed into a parked car, ending the shootings Friday night in the beach neighborhood of Isla Vista near the University of California, Santa Barbara, the family's lawyer said Saturday. Seven others remained hospitalized with serious injuries.
Authorities were not naming the shooter yet but said they had identified him. Investigators were analyzing a YouTube video in which a young man sits in a car and looks at the camera, laughing often, and says he is going to take his revenge against humanity.
"It's obviously the work of a madman," Santa Barbara County Sheriff Bill Brown said.
Alan Shifman — a lawyer who represents Peter Rodger, one of the assistant directors on "The Hunger Games" — issued a statement on behalf of the family saying they believe Rodger's son, Elliot Rodger, was the shooter.
"The Rodger family offers their deepest compassion and sympathy to the families involved in this terrible tragedy. We are experiencing the most inconceivable pain, and our hearts go out to everybody involved," Shifman said.
The shootings started around 9:30 p.m. in Isla Vista, a roughly half-square-mile community next to UC Santa Barbara's campus and picturesque beachside cliffs.
Alexander Mattera, 23, said his friend Chris Johnson was walking out of an improv comedy show when he was shot in front of a popular pizza place. He stumbled into a nearby house.
"He walked into these random guys' house bleeding," he said.
Mattera was sitting at a bonfire with friends when at least one gunshot whizzed overhead. The friends ran for cover when they heard the barrage of gunfire.
"We heard so many gunshots. It was unbelievable. I thought they were firecrackers. There had to have been at least like two guns. There were a lot of shots," he said.
The gunman got into two gun battles before crashing his black BMW into a parked car. It wasn't immediately clear whether he was killed by gunfire or if he committed suicide. A semi-automatic handgun was recovered.
Describing the shootings as "premeditated mass murder," Brown said a YouTube video posted Friday that shows a young man describing plans to shoot women appears to be connected to the attack.
He describes loneliness and frustration because "girls have never been attracted to me," and says, at age 22, he is still a virgin. The video, which is almost seven minutes long, appears scripted. The identity of the person in the video could not be independently confirmed.
Shifman, the attorney for the Rodger family, said the family called police several weeks ago after being alarmed by YouTube videos "regarding suicide and the killing of people" that Rodger's son, Elliot Rodger, had been posting.
Police interviewed Elliot Rodger and found him to be a "perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human," he added. Police did not find a history of guns, but did say Rodger "didn't have a lot of friends," had trouble making friends and didn't have any girlfriends.
Isla Vista, which is centered on university life with outdoor cafes, bike shops, burger joints, sororities and fraternities blocks from the beach, was shrouded in fog and unusually quiet Saturday.
Police tape crisscrossed Isla Vista streets, while blood was still visible on the asphalt Saturday. Bullet holes could be seen in the window of the IV Deli Mark and a parked car. The wrecked BMW driven by the shooter remained on the street, its windshield smashed in and its driver's door wide open.
Tyler Martin, a UCSB freshman from Danville, California, was visiting his injured friend at Santa Barbara Cottage Hospital, where the seven victims were being treated.
He said two friends were riding longboards near his home about 9:30 p.m. when a car suddenly came up from behind and ran over one and clipped the other. Martin ran outside to help and tended to his most injured friend.
"As I was leaning over and trying to comfort him — he was in a lot of pain, obviously — I heard pop, pop, pop," Martin said.
The friend who was run over suffered leg injuries and was in surgery Saturday. The other friend was not seriously hurt.
In a statement, the university said several students were shot and taken to the hospital and it was "shocked and saddened" by the tragedy.
"This is almost the kind of event that's impossible to prevent and almost impossible to predict," UC President Janet Napolitano told reporters after giving the commencement speech at Laney College in Oakland, California.
Calif. Gov. Jerry Brown offered his condolences to the victims' families, saying he was saddened to learn "of this senseless tragedy."
The family is not ready to speak publicly yet, but wants to cooperate fully with police, public agencies and "any other person who feels that they need to help prevent these situations from ever occurring again," Shifman said.
"My client's mission in life will be to try to prevent any such tragedies from ever happening again," he said. "This country, this world, needs to address mental illness and the ramifications from not recognizing these illnesses."
Shifman said the family is "staunchly against guns" and supports gun-control laws. "They are extremely, extremely upset that anybody was hurt under these circumstances," he said.
Isla Vista has a reputation for excessive partying. Last month, an annual spring bash spiraled into violence as young people clashed with police and tossed rocks and bottles. A university police officer and four deputies were injured and 130 people were arrested.
The community has experienced other tragedies in the past.
In 2001, the son of "Ally McBeal" TV director Daniel Attias ran down four pedestrians with his car on a crowded Isla Vista street. Witnesses testified that part-time college student David Attias got of the car and shouted: "I am the angel of death."
David Attias was ruled insane after he was convicted of second-degree murder and is locked up in a state mental hospital.
"What would the typical drunken frat party lead to if celebrants were walking around with loaded pistols? Arming undergrads can’t be the best way to deal with the occasional unbalanced 22-year-old. "
I don't know of one person who wants to send their off to college, packing. It's a miserable thought and I'd hate to put that kind of pressure on my kids. There is a giant responsibility when it comes to possessing a gun and I don't think a college kid is really up to the task.
But, the world is a different place these days in every sense of the word. This ain't Mayberry anymore.
I don't know of one person who wants to send their off to college, packing. It's a miserable thought and I'd hate to put that kind of pressure on my kids. There is a giant responsibility when it comes to possessing a gun and I don't think a college kid is really up to the task.
But, the world is a different place these days in every sense of the word. This ain't Mayberry anymore.
1. Forget conventional gun-control proposals.
These provisions may make sense to deter many kinds of wrongdoing, but they don’t apply to the suicidal young man determined to express his pain and rage by taking innocent people with him. Elliot Rodger, the self-pitying Santa Barbara killer, passed background checks—three times—as he bought his Glock and Sig Sauer pistols. He didn’t need an “assault weapon,” or military-style semiautomatic rifle. Ordinary handguns did just fine. He didn’t need large-capacity ammunition magazines; those are already illegal in California. He planned ahead: three pistols in case one jammed, and more than 40 10-round mags, which provided ample ammo for his deadly mission. California has some of the toughest gun-control laws in the country, far more stringent than what the federal government imposes. Those laws didn’t stop, or even significantly slow, Rodger.
2. Forget mental-health reforms.
Such improvements are badly needed and might interrupt some disturbed individuals before they put finger to trigger. But “the system” worked pretty well in Rodger’s case. Early reporting indicates that both his parents paid attention to his psychological troubles, as did a therapist. Based on his family’s concerns, deputy sheriffs showed up at the young man’s apartment to question him. But crazy people of a certain sort can pass themselves off as not warranting involuntary commitment, and that’s what happened in this case. If the cops had bent the rules and poked around his apartment, even though they lacked a search warrant, they might have found Rodger’s arsenal. But this bloodshed wasn’t the fault of negligent law enforcement. To the contrary, trained professionals made their best assessment and gave Rodger a pass. If the police could imprison every young man with violent fantasies, we’d have a whole different sort of crisis on our hands.
3. The NRA isn’t to blame; at the same time, it has no answers.
The father of Christopher Michael-Martinez, one of the victims, blamed the National Rifle Association. “Chris died because of craven, irresponsible politicians and the NRA,” said Richard Martinez. “They talk about gun rights. What about Chris’s right to live? When will this insanity stop?” A despairing parent gets wide latitude. But the NRA didn’t kill young Chris. Elliott Rodger did. And the politicians in California were not asleep at the switch. They passed stiff gun-control laws (see No. 1).
Not that the gun-rights crowd has much to say that’s helpful. The NRA, as is its practice, didn’t immediately comment. As a proxy, the conservative publicationHuman Events went to Richard Feldman, president of the New Hampshire-based Independent Firearm Owners Association. Feldman, formerly an NRA operative and a gun industry trade association official, is as knowledgeable about the politics of firearms as anyone I know. He often offers a pragmatic alternative to the NRA’s endless culture war.
In this situation, Feldman’s libertarian solution—everyone should be armed and ready to shoot at all times—strikes me as self-parody. “The easiest way to stop a deranged killer is to have a gun,” he told Human Events. “Had one of the three knife victims had a hand gun, they could have potentially shot the culprit and stopped the killing.” Two of the slashing fatalities were apparently Rodger’s roommates; the third, a guest, was also a college student.
On one level, what Feldman said was true. If one of the other students happened to have been armed and possessed the skill and presence of mind to blast Rodger during the initial attack, maybe—maybe—the murders would have been stopped. But is that really a solution that any parent wants to contemplate: sending their child off to college with a Glock, ready and able to kill their roommate in self-defense? What would the typical drunken frat party lead to if celebrants were walking around with loaded pistols? Arming undergrads can’t be the best way to deal with the occasional unbalanced 22-year-old.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-05-27/santa-barbara-massacre-defies-gun-control-mental-health-proposals-4-blunt-points
These provisions may make sense to deter many kinds of wrongdoing, but they don’t apply to the suicidal young man determined to express his pain and rage by taking innocent people with him. Elliot Rodger, the self-pitying Santa Barbara killer, passed background checks—three times—as he bought his Glock and Sig Sauer pistols. He didn’t need an “assault weapon,” or military-style semiautomatic rifle. Ordinary handguns did just fine. He didn’t need large-capacity ammunition magazines; those are already illegal in California. He planned ahead: three pistols in case one jammed, and more than 40 10-round mags, which provided ample ammo for his deadly mission. California has some of the toughest gun-control laws in the country, far more stringent than what the federal government imposes. Those laws didn’t stop, or even significantly slow, Rodger.
2. Forget mental-health reforms.
Such improvements are badly needed and might interrupt some disturbed individuals before they put finger to trigger. But “the system” worked pretty well in Rodger’s case. Early reporting indicates that both his parents paid attention to his psychological troubles, as did a therapist. Based on his family’s concerns, deputy sheriffs showed up at the young man’s apartment to question him. But crazy people of a certain sort can pass themselves off as not warranting involuntary commitment, and that’s what happened in this case. If the cops had bent the rules and poked around his apartment, even though they lacked a search warrant, they might have found Rodger’s arsenal. But this bloodshed wasn’t the fault of negligent law enforcement. To the contrary, trained professionals made their best assessment and gave Rodger a pass. If the police could imprison every young man with violent fantasies, we’d have a whole different sort of crisis on our hands.
3. The NRA isn’t to blame; at the same time, it has no answers.
The father of Christopher Michael-Martinez, one of the victims, blamed the National Rifle Association. “Chris died because of craven, irresponsible politicians and the NRA,” said Richard Martinez. “They talk about gun rights. What about Chris’s right to live? When will this insanity stop?” A despairing parent gets wide latitude. But the NRA didn’t kill young Chris. Elliott Rodger did. And the politicians in California were not asleep at the switch. They passed stiff gun-control laws (see No. 1).
Not that the gun-rights crowd has much to say that’s helpful. The NRA, as is its practice, didn’t immediately comment. As a proxy, the conservative publicationHuman Events went to Richard Feldman, president of the New Hampshire-based Independent Firearm Owners Association. Feldman, formerly an NRA operative and a gun industry trade association official, is as knowledgeable about the politics of firearms as anyone I know. He often offers a pragmatic alternative to the NRA’s endless culture war.
In this situation, Feldman’s libertarian solution—everyone should be armed and ready to shoot at all times—strikes me as self-parody. “The easiest way to stop a deranged killer is to have a gun,” he told Human Events. “Had one of the three knife victims had a hand gun, they could have potentially shot the culprit and stopped the killing.” Two of the slashing fatalities were apparently Rodger’s roommates; the third, a guest, was also a college student.
On one level, what Feldman said was true. If one of the other students happened to have been armed and possessed the skill and presence of mind to blast Rodger during the initial attack, maybe—maybe—the murders would have been stopped. But is that really a solution that any parent wants to contemplate: sending their child off to college with a Glock, ready and able to kill their roommate in self-defense? What would the typical drunken frat party lead to if celebrants were walking around with loaded pistols? Arming undergrads can’t be the best way to deal with the occasional unbalanced 22-year-old.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-05-27/santa-barbara-massacre-defies-gun-control-mental-health-proposals-4-blunt-points
You're right. This is not about my gun rights. I'm not for sure where you picked up the notion that what I said was about my gun rights. This is about doing something, and I said nobody is coming up with anything reasonable.
And as you talk about how easy it is to get a gun, you don't mention how easy it is to get a knife. There aren't even simple back ground checks to get a knife. California is the most difficult state in the nation to legally obtain a gun, which this kid did. Back ground checks failed... so what's next? Legislation will not stop this crap. If this kid could not have obtained a gun legally, he probably would have illegally. So what's next?
Why didn't this guy use a gun to kill the first 3 people? To me it doesn't matter because all the same, 3 more people are dead. How would you ever address anyone's intent when they purchase a gun, knife, etc?
" I do know alot of people who feel that all this freedom of access and carrying everywhere ya want to go, IS a problem tho. " This kid didn't have a permit to carry where ever he wanted to go. People who are intent on killing people don't give a rats a$$ about laws.
So, what's next when it comes to common sense gun laws? All of the common sense gun laws on the book in California didn't stop this.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/california-killings-another-trail-of-dead-another-search-for-sanity-on-gun-control-after-elliot-rodger-rampage-9434015.html
Guns in the Golden state: the rules
Buying a firearm
Firearms must be bought via a licensed dealer, and every sale is recorded by the state, which imposes a 10-day waiting period on purchases. Prospective gun owners must pass a written test to obtain a Handgun Safety Certificate.
Assault weapon ban
Assault weapons and magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition are banned, and while California residents don’t need a permit to own a firearm, they must have one to carry it outside their home or business.
This is some of the common sense stuff that people talk about. Its already in place in California.... it does no good. It's not a legal issue because idiots like this a-hole don't care about laws.
And as you talk about how easy it is to get a gun, you don't mention how easy it is to get a knife. There aren't even simple back ground checks to get a knife. California is the most difficult state in the nation to legally obtain a gun, which this kid did. Back ground checks failed... so what's next? Legislation will not stop this crap. If this kid could not have obtained a gun legally, he probably would have illegally. So what's next?
Why didn't this guy use a gun to kill the first 3 people? To me it doesn't matter because all the same, 3 more people are dead. How would you ever address anyone's intent when they purchase a gun, knife, etc?
" I do know alot of people who feel that all this freedom of access and carrying everywhere ya want to go, IS a problem tho. " This kid didn't have a permit to carry where ever he wanted to go. People who are intent on killing people don't give a rats a$$ about laws.
So, what's next when it comes to common sense gun laws? All of the common sense gun laws on the book in California didn't stop this.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/california-killings-another-trail-of-dead-another-search-for-sanity-on-gun-control-after-elliot-rodger-rampage-9434015.html
Guns in the Golden state: the rules
Buying a firearm
Firearms must be bought via a licensed dealer, and every sale is recorded by the state, which imposes a 10-day waiting period on purchases. Prospective gun owners must pass a written test to obtain a Handgun Safety Certificate.
Assault weapon ban
Assault weapons and magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition are banned, and while California residents don’t need a permit to own a firearm, they must have one to carry it outside their home or business.
This is some of the common sense stuff that people talk about. Its already in place in California.... it does no good. It's not a legal issue because idiots like this a-hole don't care about laws.
By the way, I am not anti gun. Dont know anyone that is antigun. I do know alot of people who feel that all this freedom of access and carrying everywhere ya want to go, IS a problem tho.
We have a duty to be responsible and not emotional when addressing this topic. imo
We have a duty to be responsible and not emotional when addressing this topic. imo
I am talking about the ease in which the mentally ill are able to access firearms in this country. Yes, it is that simple. This is not a conversation about your gun rights. It is a conversation about common sense issues of the mentally ill being able to easily obtain firearms. It is a multifaceted issue and their are many, but does not answer the question as to what to do to prevent the mentally ill from legally accessing guns as in the case of this young man.
"Yes, knives were involved as well, but....." But? You're not excusing or discounting the fact that as many people died in this incident with a knife as they did a gun, are you? Nobody stabbed is any less dead. One of the people shot survived the incident.
Anti gun people spend a lot of time weighing one death versus another. To most anti gun people, if you're shot you're dead and that isn't always the case. And minimizing the fact that you can just as easily be killed with a knife is counter productive to any reasonable expected outcome. Violence and the perpensity to commit violence is the question, and there aren't answers. Take away a gun from someone who is hell bent on committing an atrocity and they will commit the same atrocity by other means. Timothy McVeigh comes to mind, right off the top of my head. He chose to not use a gun in order to make a bigger statement. We know what happened in OKC. Is anyone going to excuse that? He killed more people in one act than all of the people in the last 20 shooting incidents that made the news. Is anyone going to minimize that? Anti gun people will by saying the word, "but..... " , and then offer some explanation on how and why guns must go.
Addressing guns is the easy way out. You're hard pressed to blame mental illness, because it doesn't always have a face. Millions of people are classified as mentally ill but the overwhelming majority of those people are not capable of acts like these. Not every "mentally ill" person wants to hurt someone. Not every "mentally ill" person wants to hurt themselves. You can't pin point mental illness, so you go after guns. Guns are easy to get, and legislation won't slow gun crimes down. Criminals typically go to gun stores to buy guns to commit crimes with. Legislate all you want, but guns will be picked up off the street.
Look, I am open to ideas on how to get the guns out of these peoples hands, but I'm not hearing anything reasonable. Background checks? We've got them.
Anti gun people spend a lot of time weighing one death versus another. To most anti gun people, if you're shot you're dead and that isn't always the case. And minimizing the fact that you can just as easily be killed with a knife is counter productive to any reasonable expected outcome. Violence and the perpensity to commit violence is the question, and there aren't answers. Take away a gun from someone who is hell bent on committing an atrocity and they will commit the same atrocity by other means. Timothy McVeigh comes to mind, right off the top of my head. He chose to not use a gun in order to make a bigger statement. We know what happened in OKC. Is anyone going to excuse that? He killed more people in one act than all of the people in the last 20 shooting incidents that made the news. Is anyone going to minimize that? Anti gun people will by saying the word, "but..... " , and then offer some explanation on how and why guns must go.
Addressing guns is the easy way out. You're hard pressed to blame mental illness, because it doesn't always have a face. Millions of people are classified as mentally ill but the overwhelming majority of those people are not capable of acts like these. Not every "mentally ill" person wants to hurt someone. Not every "mentally ill" person wants to hurt themselves. You can't pin point mental illness, so you go after guns. Guns are easy to get, and legislation won't slow gun crimes down. Criminals typically go to gun stores to buy guns to commit crimes with. Legislate all you want, but guns will be picked up off the street.
Look, I am open to ideas on how to get the guns out of these peoples hands, but I'm not hearing anything reasonable. Background checks? We've got them.
Yes, knives were involved as well, but usually it is the guns that rack up the numbers. A vehicle was used as well, and 13 people were injured too. That does not negate the necessity to address the availability and ease in which these people, who shouldnt be getting access, are.
And it needs addressed, as well as other factors.
And it needs addressed, as well as other factors.
"And how many rounds can you do with a knife ?"
I'm not even sure what that means. But in this situation, knives killed just as many as guns did. That's the facts....
I'm not even sure what that means. But in this situation, knives killed just as many as guns did. That's the facts....
Silly and foolish.... of course. Fact of the matter is, not everyone shot in this event died but everyone stabbed did. How did he get away with that?
The problem with guns is they are just like playing an intenet game, point and shoot.
They are disconnected. You push a knife into someone and the reality, i.e. the blood is all over the place. And how many rounds can you do with a knife ?
No way knives would kill as many people as guns.
They are disconnected. You push a knife into someone and the reality, i.e. the blood is all over the place. And how many rounds can you do with a knife ?
No way knives would kill as many people as guns.
If you really believe that knives can kill as many people as guns then I think you're deluding yourself. In the abstract you could make some kind of silly argument but in the real world that is just a foolish proposition. By that reasoning hammers could also kill as many people as guns but I doubt you'd feel quite as safe carrying a concealed hammer in your dangerous line of work.
Ive got problems with the mental health issue and the more gun laws issue. Some new ideas concerning the ability to get guns I would be willing to listen to.
The problem with banning guns is, people this nuts, people this ill that want to exact revenge on society are going to do so, one way or the other. Still there is no talk about the fact that this guy stabbed and killed as many people as he shot, and I think that is completely indicative of the anti gun movement. Because they are not addressing the fact that knives were used is the exact same thing as excusing the fact that knives were used.
Ban guns, restrict guns.... you're still going to have this and this is a perfect case that shows knife attacks can kill as many as gun attacks. Furthermore, there is not any mention that one of the victims that was shot, is probably going to survive.... Sensationalism in the media is apparent and disgusting.
Ruling out mental health issues is the first mistake. Not all mentally ill people are capable of attacks like this. Its a small minority of a group of people that is even capable. Most mentally ill people are simply not capable of this.
I fear that deeming someone "mentally ill" will lead to people wrongfully being -placed on mental holds, completely against the rights. Better look at this real good.... real, real good.
The problem with banning guns is, people this nuts, people this ill that want to exact revenge on society are going to do so, one way or the other. Still there is no talk about the fact that this guy stabbed and killed as many people as he shot, and I think that is completely indicative of the anti gun movement. Because they are not addressing the fact that knives were used is the exact same thing as excusing the fact that knives were used.
Ban guns, restrict guns.... you're still going to have this and this is a perfect case that shows knife attacks can kill as many as gun attacks. Furthermore, there is not any mention that one of the victims that was shot, is probably going to survive.... Sensationalism in the media is apparent and disgusting.
Ruling out mental health issues is the first mistake. Not all mentally ill people are capable of attacks like this. Its a small minority of a group of people that is even capable. Most mentally ill people are simply not capable of this.
I fear that deeming someone "mentally ill" will lead to people wrongfully being -placed on mental holds, completely against the rights. Better look at this real good.... real, real good.
You make some good points. What I see as a problem is that their are two discussions going on simultaniously. Guns and the rights of guns, and mental illness and lack of quality or available care.
First of all, imo, the second ammendment does not mean we have no responsiblity to act responsible in our legislation or rules to access.
So as an argument, the conversation focusus on mental health and all the inadequacies therein.
So in the end you got defensive people saying its mental health and you got defensive people saying its mental health. I see both contributing to the overall problem.
First of all, we have hippa laws in place to protect patient confidentiality. I cannot even find out what is going on with my husbands healthcare unless he gives permission to do so. So how does that factor into all this, which is just one thing no one is talking about?
Secondly, liberals have been accused of wanting to take the guns away, which is a political football that has been tossed about so much that there are people who actually believe it. I dont want to take your guns, but rather enforce responsible laws regarding them that are good for the society as a whole rather than a few.
So whenever a tragedy happens, it turns either to gun rights conversation or mental health situation.
There is a longstanding stigma to acquiring mental health care and as long as we have things like hippa laws, even acquiring a background check will not disclose what information is needed to deny a gun purchase. This guy passed a 10 day hold for a background check. He was able to purchase 3 guns in the year leading up to this incident. So the way I see it, is all the laws in place for either guns or mental health, they just constantly enforce that people who should not have a gun will continue to be able to get them legally, and those requiring mental care will continue to avoid it due to the stigma of being treated.
It is truly a connundrum
First of all, imo, the second ammendment does not mean we have no responsiblity to act responsible in our legislation or rules to access.
So as an argument, the conversation focusus on mental health and all the inadequacies therein.
So in the end you got defensive people saying its mental health and you got defensive people saying its mental health. I see both contributing to the overall problem.
First of all, we have hippa laws in place to protect patient confidentiality. I cannot even find out what is going on with my husbands healthcare unless he gives permission to do so. So how does that factor into all this, which is just one thing no one is talking about?
Secondly, liberals have been accused of wanting to take the guns away, which is a political football that has been tossed about so much that there are people who actually believe it. I dont want to take your guns, but rather enforce responsible laws regarding them that are good for the society as a whole rather than a few.
So whenever a tragedy happens, it turns either to gun rights conversation or mental health situation.
There is a longstanding stigma to acquiring mental health care and as long as we have things like hippa laws, even acquiring a background check will not disclose what information is needed to deny a gun purchase. This guy passed a 10 day hold for a background check. He was able to purchase 3 guns in the year leading up to this incident. So the way I see it, is all the laws in place for either guns or mental health, they just constantly enforce that people who should not have a gun will continue to be able to get them legally, and those requiring mental care will continue to avoid it due to the stigma of being treated.
It is truly a connundrum
Once the crime has been committed by that
point it is too late. I would be in favor of
any law that would require preventive intervention.
Right now a law that is being debated
in Congress would require this:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/26/politics/gun-policy-recap/
In general I would say I am opposed to required
mental health treatment but in some situations
I can see why it is necessary, especially
if it would prevent even one further incident
such as this.
point it is too late. I would be in favor of
any law that would require preventive intervention.
Right now a law that is being debated
in Congress would require this:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/26/politics/gun-policy-recap/
In general I would say I am opposed to required
mental health treatment but in some situations
I can see why it is necessary, especially
if it would prevent even one further incident
such as this.
From what I've read, his parent were vary active in trying to get this guy some help.
I found this article interesting.
http://www.truecrimediary.com/index.cfm?page=cases&id=230
I found this article interesting.
http://www.truecrimediary.com/index.cfm?page=cases&id=230
Something was definitely missing in this guy's life and it wasn't the fact that women weren't attracted to him.
It's easy to blame the parents but without knowing more about the man~ it's all conjecture.
I do believe there is some blame to be made on our societies values which is not an excuse for this horribly sad situation.
Teko makes some valid points about children being raised without structure, without being told 'no'. They aren't prepared for the real world when it isn't catering to them the way their parents do.
Kids need to learn limits and self discipline. They need to learn that not getting everything they want, isn't the end of the world. I see these types of kids all the time and yes, they don't go around killing masses of people but they do seem to be making a mess of their lives.
It's easy to blame the parents but without knowing more about the man~ it's all conjecture.
I do believe there is some blame to be made on our societies values which is not an excuse for this horribly sad situation.
Teko makes some valid points about children being raised without structure, without being told 'no'. They aren't prepared for the real world when it isn't catering to them the way their parents do.
Kids need to learn limits and self discipline. They need to learn that not getting everything they want, isn't the end of the world. I see these types of kids all the time and yes, they don't go around killing masses of people but they do seem to be making a mess of their lives.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/01/24/waffle-house-customer-shoots-and-kills-armed-robber/
The above is a pretty good article that touches on the aspects of a civilian "taking out a bad guy".
The above is a pretty good article that touches on the aspects of a civilian "taking out a bad guy".
"....where were all the good guys with all those guns? " Well, this is California we are talking about. Not exactly the easiest place on the globe for a well intentioned, law abiding individual to go get a permit to carry legally. And I think this is directly indicative of how many civilians really do carry. No civilian went Rambo here and I think that too is indicative of the quality of the majority of law abiding citizens that do carry. They've trained, they know and understand the laws, and they know that if they do discharge their weapon that you don't get the bullet back.
Evidently the guy hung out on internet sites about mysogany, hatred of women. Evidently, he had done things in the past like throw coffee on a couple because they were a reminder of what he didnt have. I heard he had aspergers syndrome.Once reported but only once, so is it true? Who knows. Sounds like he was really messed up. Details of his so called manifesto, shows one sick puppy. Yet it was so easy for him to get hold of a gun. Not to say its all the gun, as he tried to run people over and stabbed a few as well. I happen to think we have a whole generation of em out there just waiting to snap. I think it all started back when they took the right to raise your children and told you how you could raise them. No structure anymore, no responsibility, and no consequences. Add to that the entitlement attitude that this guy seemed to have, along with a gun and we got major problems.
Is the gun responsible? I never said that, but it is irresponsible of us as a society I think to not look at the whole thing. I see nothing wrong with background checks in getting guns and I sure dont think its good that our police officers cannot ask if they have a permit to carry. It is not the guns that scare me. It is the mentality of those that wear them like a badge of honor or something, liquid courage, Im packin heat so dont mess with me. And again, where were all the good guys with all those guns? I always heard that you fight bad guys with guns, with good guys with guns?
I also think we need to quit giving excuses or special treatment due to mental illness, as imo all those that kill someone is off. I dont know how many more people are going to die before we figure it out. Im 61 years old and never ever thought I would live to see this America.
Is the gun responsible? I never said that, but it is irresponsible of us as a society I think to not look at the whole thing. I see nothing wrong with background checks in getting guns and I sure dont think its good that our police officers cannot ask if they have a permit to carry. It is not the guns that scare me. It is the mentality of those that wear them like a badge of honor or something, liquid courage, Im packin heat so dont mess with me. And again, where were all the good guys with all those guns? I always heard that you fight bad guys with guns, with good guys with guns?
I also think we need to quit giving excuses or special treatment due to mental illness, as imo all those that kill someone is off. I dont know how many more people are going to die before we figure it out. Im 61 years old and never ever thought I would live to see this America.
One of the people shot, survived. NONE OF THE ONES STABBED DID.
Was there absolutely no mention of the 3 people who died from stab wounds?
Nope, not one and the article clearly leads you to believe that everyone who died, died because of being shot. I'm sorry folks... that is either incredibly poor reporting or an agenda based report.
As many people died from being stabbed, and there is no mention. I think its because we aren't so hot to go after knives... The story stinks.... The write stinks...
Nope, not one and the article clearly leads you to believe that everyone who died, died because of being shot. I'm sorry folks... that is either incredibly poor reporting or an agenda based report.
As many people died from being stabbed, and there is no mention. I think its because we aren't so hot to go after knives... The story stinks.... The write stinks...
I wish I knew of a way that would be a sure fire method of figuring out who is going to go nuts and do things like this. The truth is, not all people who are depressed or mentally ill are going to commit crimes like this. They just don't have it in them, and I think the proof is in the pudding. There are millions of mentally ill people and these occurrences are relatively rare, but do happen too often.
How would we go about getting the guns out of peoples hands, short of a complete nationwide confiscation?
How would we go about getting the guns out of peoples hands, short of a complete nationwide confiscation?
It's sad.
And there certainly are a lot of people who have a hard time admitting mental illness within their own family. That stigma that is still present sure doesn't help. I'm glad the parents called the police and feel they were brave to do so when others might not take that route. They didn't want at tragedy for their own son or for anyone else to be hurt. And identification of mental illness needs to happen but it IS hard. Even if you do an involuntary hold on someone, it is for only so long. And depression can be hidden.
Sadly, I don't think we'll ever be able to fully stop things like this although I do hope we limit access to guns overall. That's just my opinion though.
And there certainly are a lot of people who have a hard time admitting mental illness within their own family. That stigma that is still present sure doesn't help. I'm glad the parents called the police and feel they were brave to do so when others might not take that route. They didn't want at tragedy for their own son or for anyone else to be hurt. And identification of mental illness needs to happen but it IS hard. Even if you do an involuntary hold on someone, it is for only so long. And depression can be hidden.
Sadly, I don't think we'll ever be able to fully stop things like this although I do hope we limit access to guns overall. That's just my opinion though.
What did he say? "Get back at humanity"? I don't get it... All kinds of things are wrong with this one, and its sickening.
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