Different type still progress?

[heartoflove]

Are all types of Bipolar the same, in that they are proven to have increased symptoms as you age?

[Delusion]

I agree with cowgirlnerd.

You are wrong in some of the things you are saying and implying facts to things that can never be so. We are not angry please dont think that and dont want this little spot of disagreement put you off further postings. If you genuinely have BP then you have a right to be here and we will all listen.

Ive never seen a post from you explaining your feelings of why you think you may be BP did you ever do one? If so could we perhaps see it so we can find out who you are a little better?

[cowgirlnerd]

Delusion, I Agree - Monkeyc is an advocate for what we go through and does a lot of research on his own to give us hope and help in our recovery.  He doesn't deserve to told he doesn't understand when he goes well beyond what is necessary to do actual research to assist us all in our quest to become stable and recover.    Believe me, he understands all to well, what BP is about.

The funny thing about monkeyc is that he won't waste the time to point out the ignorance but will have the compassion to be concerned about the implications of a "cure", etc., hurting someone who needs and wants help.  He is compassionate that way - that's why we respect him and his opinions so much.

We all have a right to our own opinions - but when something is as serious as BP - you need to back it up with some research.  If you have questions, ask - but don't state it as fact unless you know it to be so.

[Delusion]

I disagree with monkeyc on some very minor things with regard to other threads not this one but do not talk to him in that way. He is much older than you and wiser and as condesending as it sounds you are a mere kid i am also 19 and dont exclude myself from that. What he is saying is fact im sorry the brain deteoriates with age its a biological fact.

[cowgirlnerd]

OH - and I have 35 years of daily experience in the BP field - I walk with it ever day.  My research is caused by a strong desire to get better myself.   2 years in a psych class?  Really??? Well, I guess my pdoc should be angry at the additional years of schooling and expenses to be well, a ....Doctor????

[cowgirlnerd]

Guys, well put words and the frustration we show is evident of how hard our struggle with BP is and how we want to help each other  - those of us who TRULY have BP.  Those of us who have BP find it hard to explain to other how exactly we feel when we are in episode and NONE of wouldn't take a "cure" if we were given one....there just isn't one.  

If there is one out there, MistressNomad, please by all means, share it with us.  We would love to not wonder every day what episode is awaiting us, and to not be devastated by our illness.

To say the things proposed (by MistressNomad) appears to me to have no merit of research, concern, compassion, or insight.    We suffer - we try to help each other and to even suggest that we are all wandering through life medicated because we want to be - it's just preposterous.   This forum is one of compassion and concern and we share our histories with each other in the hopes that we can understand our illness better.  NONE of us pretend to be an "expert" and we don't state facts that have no merit.  We offer each other areas to research our questions and look forward to finding new ways to cope with our illness.   If you were to check most postings - when we discuss issues, we always refer our fellow sufferers to their pdoc - they are after all, qualified to treat us and that shows our compassion to help in the most positive way.

I would repeat one question?  What BP diagnoses has MistressNomad have - since there is no doctorate in the field?  

We aren't attacking - we would like for the comments to be true - we simply understand the seriousness  of our illness and don't take likely to false hope to someone that might be in a serious medical situation.   What you must understand that EVERY DAY with a BP patient is a serious day.  We live moment to moment and help each other through it.

If this is a case study for class- most likely a grade of F will happen for lack of research will happen.  If there is research and studies that we aren't aware of - please let us know.  

I suppose if there is no need for medical treatment, it would also equate to a person with cancer to just will themselves better.  It just doesn't happen that way.  Talk therapy is a good source to deal with issues of our past that can be exagerrated by life events resulting in triggers - it isn't a cure for BP.  

Thanks Guys  - I was flabergasted at the comments about our apparent "cure" right around the corner!  Where's mine - I would love to get me some of that!!!!!!

[LetaB]

  Ah! But perhaps the intent of this diatribe was merely a hoax played for maximum depth under our skin! If so I have to admit tht you played me like the joker I am!

  And yes...I am still floundering around without sleep or meds - is it showing? Yes? Ah, well, so arrest me!

[LetaB]

  I wish I could state the obvious any better. Your theory, I propose, is totally from out in left field! Where on earth did you get this information - by osmosis? By magic? Did an angel come from heaven tell you these absurd ideas? Site your sources!!!

  Beware, without your supporting evidence I will be led to whisper, "Narcissism!"

[bernie40]

I have to agree with Jen and monkeyc.  The "kindling" effect has been widely researched, there are some that support the theory and some that don't.  The research does show a strong link to an increasing of symptoms in people with BP who have not received medication.  There are lots of links on the internet that will lead you to various research both for and against this theory.

With regard to medication, here is a link which shows how certain meds can help reverse the changes in the brain.  This is very interesting reading. www.psycheducation.org/mechanism/MechanismIntro.htm
As the others point out the medication has side effects but they are related to other parts of the body.  When first starting on a medication and if on too strong a dose then cognitive ability can be compromised but then it can also be compromised from not having medication - you will find more evidence for this in "kindling".

You should be very careful when you accuse people of not knowing what they are talking about.  Most of us on here go to a lot trouble to research BP and treatments for it, most of us are intelligent adults with various life skills and qualifications, who have lived with BP for decades, none of us declare to be experts, we share the knowledge we have gained.  A 2 year course in psychology does not an expert make!  Maybe if you had told me you had a Doctorate in Psychology and worked as a Psychiatrist for many years I may have given your research (have you produced or published any research findings?) some consideration.

[monkeyc]

I do have another question.  What form of bipolar do you have ?

[monkeyc]

"Do you have a shred of evidence to support that? I doubt it, since there is none."

Evidence for what?  Mental illness getting worse with age ?

Do some searches on pubmed for one or so some reading in the psychiatry today archives there's lots of information in general on various subjects to do with the progression of many mental illnesses with age.  

"I'm not saying that anyone should ignore treatment. But here is a scientific fact: drug therapy for ANY affective illness is no more effective than talk therapy. They are both somewhere around 60%. And there is NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE proving that bipolar or unipolar depression is accounted for entirely by chemical imbalances. What there is, is proof that certain chemicals, when given to patients with certain mood characteristics, can change their mood. But cocaine can change your mood, too. That doesn't mean your brain naturally produces cocaine."

Dangerous advice.  Bipolar cannot be controlled by talk and therapy and ANYONE who tells you it can is wrong.  As for no scientific evidence - this is just the latest study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18955079?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum and its not fully relevant but its where the latest thinking is going - in fact no one who is researching bipolar will tell you that its curable by talk, mood stabilisers, AD and AP drugs as well as anti anxiety drugs all have their uses - the problem with Bipolar is in the right mood space someone can stop taking their drugs and feel fine, they can convince them selves they are cured or they dont need the drugs and then add the right mix of stressors and bang its all back and possibly worse.

"Drugs are right for some people. And on a crisis basis, a LOT of people. But the prognosis for a bipolar patient actually gets worse if they stay on medication for life. "

No the side effects from some meds get worse.  The prognosis for untreated bipolar patients is far worse than treated patients - demantia, sucides, senility, psychoses all increseas without treatment and this has been studied and proven - this is just ONE website in an easy search to show that : http://www.healthyplace.com/COMMUNITIES/Bipolar/treatment/untreated.asp

"Medication drastically increases their rate of cognitive deterioration and if they remain on it for more than a decade, it will make their affective disorder even worse. That is scientific fact."

Link to study please?

:There is no predictable pattern for a bipolar patient. It is completely possible for someone to go into permanent remission. And why wouldn't it be? That's exactly what ECT does. It resets the brain, which may result in a permanent remission of the illness. The same thing can occur naturally"

Link to proof please?

"Other patients will get worse with time. Others will show no change."

Sure and some people will kill themselves and others wont.  Everyone is different.

"Age-induced dementia is not a worsening of bipolar. It is age-induced dementia. It's a completely different problem. And as I said earlier, this higher incidence of dementia in bipolar patience is mostly caused by over-medication."

Which is fine except its seen in UNMEDICATED sufferers more than medicated.

"Look it up for yourself. And check your sources. I bet I know where all of yours come from. "

Yep, pubmed, psychiatry now, DSM-IV and about 50 books on bipolar.  I havent studied psychology I have a mental illness - I study what I have - knowledge is power and informed consent.

[jen21287]

I do not agree and I am not trying to start an argument.

I have read numerous books and medical journals that all talk about bipolar disorder getting worse with age. It has been found that the longer a person goes untreated and experiences more episodes, the worse the prognosis of remission and stability. This is also why they theorize that people who have shown symptoms of bipolar disorder since childhood tend to have a poorer prognosis. The 'kindling' theory. The truth is, much of medicine and science is based on theories. They cannot prove everything. Scientists are not able to determine exactly how certain mechanisms in the body work on a cellular level - they have working theories.

I just read a study in a journal today talking about psychotherapy not having a significant impact on people with bipolar disorder alone. Talk-therapy is not going to cure someone with schizophrenia - it does not help every mental disorder. Bipolar disorder and schizophrenia are closely related. Someone who is manic cannot be talked out of it. Neither can someone who is severely depressed. I am not saying that talk therapy is not helpful - but it most certainly is not a cure. A combination of therapy and medications has been shown to help. Every psychologist that I have seen has stressed the importance of medications in maintaining stability - they are not being paid by drug companies. They realize the limits of talk therapy. Doctors are not even sure exactly how ECT actually works and I have never heard of anyone being cured by it. ECT is a treatment, but not a cure.

I have also never read anything about medications making this illness worse. Medications can cause other health problems (problems with the: thyroid, heart, liver, kidneys, etc), but I have never heard of them making the bipolar disorder itself worse. Some medicines can cause cognitive decline, but not all, and it can sometimes be reversed upon discontinuation of the med.

I have done plenty of research - I wanted to know everything about this illness when I was first diagnosed, but I certainly do not know everything. I am sure that a lot of people on here have done the same - and not just from wikipedia. Where did you get all of your information from if we do not know what we are talking about?

[RebootJive]

Do you have a shred of evidence to support that? I doubt it, since there is none.

I'm not saying that anyone should ignore treatment. But here is a scientific fact: drug therapy for ANY affective illness is no more effective than talk therapy. They are both somewhere around 60%. And there is NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE proving that bipolar or unipolar depression is accounted for entirely by chemical imbalances. What there is, is proof that certain chemicals, when given to patients with certain mood characteristics, can change their mood. But cocaine can change your mood, too. That doesn't mean your brain naturally produces cocaine.

Drugs are right for some people. And on a crisis basis, a LOT of people. But the prognosis for a bipolar patient actually gets worse if they stay on medication for life. Medication drastically increases their rate of cognitive deterioration and if they remain on it for more than a decade, it will make their affective disorder even worse. That is scientific fact.

There is no predictable pattern for a bipolar patient. It is completely possible for someone to go into permanent remission. And why wouldn't it be? That's exactly what ECT does. It resets the brain, which may result in a permanent remission of the illness. The same thing can occur naturally.

Other patients will get worse with time. Others will show no change.

Age-induced dementia is not a worsening of bipolar. It is age-induced dementia. It's a completely different problem. And as I said earlier, this higher incidence of dementia in bipolar patience is mostly caused by over-medication.

Look it up for yourself. And check your sources. I bet I know where all of yours come from.

[monkeyc]

All bipolar progresses with age.  Its got nothing to do with drug companies its phsyilogical fact and No im not in america.

All chronic illnesses get worse with age and mental illness is no difference - there is a body of evidence and study out there to show this very clearly so its not a myth - not all people with Cyclothymia develop BP1 or 2 but all people with Mental illness will get worse as they grow older - the brain ages the same as the rest of the body.

As one example Bipolar sufferers have a higher risk of early onset dementia past 50 years of age and its increased without treatment.  Thats just one example.

The myth that bipolar dissapears is just that - it does not, symptoms can go dormant, some people can go long terms without them - I went 15 years and know people who have gone more but it ALWAYS comes back - Bipolar is a disease which affects everyone differently but it never ever goes away, its not yet curable and its not something that you can or should ignore.

There is NO cure for Bipolar in any form - anyone who tells you there is is someone you should be avoiding - a healthy distrust of big pharma is good but ignoring treatment is not.

[RebootJive]

There is Bipolar 1, 2, and Cyclothemia. Cyclothemia is the most mild, and also the most likely to progress. About half of patients diagnosed with cyclothemia go on to develop a more severe type of Bipolar.

However, it is NOT true that bipolar necessarily progresses. In actuality, despite what drug companies tell you, there is no predictable pattern for any bipolar type. It may get worse. It may stay the same. It may get better. It may even disappear completely.

America is actually the only country where a psychiatrist is likely to tell you that you will get worse. It's because they get money for every patient they get on drugs for life. In other developed nations (where success rates of treatment are actually higher), they tell you the truth - there is no way to tell.

(I studied psychology for 2 years - I've done the research.)

[Delusion]

Bipolar offically does have types which are just simply called type 1 and type 2 as well as cyclothymia which is often dubbed typed 3 as it is in effect like a milder form of bipolar where psychotic features are not present.

Most research suggests yes bipolar does get worse with age but saying bipolar itself and as a whole gets progressively wrong is a little faulty. Only certain symptoms may worsen but others may stay the same or even decrease in severity.

Ultimately as we age our minds get to a point where we simply cannot experience reality in the same way as we once did and our perceptions and feelings change because our bodies are getting older. A common symptom that 'tends' to get worse in bipolar sufferers who are very old is paranoia and even delusions but this should not be looked upon as unique to bipolar sufferers. Many 'normal' old people will get increasingly paranoid in their old age it is just the severity in which it affects them.