IL28b genetic testing, what, when, where and how

[merryBe]

genetic testing...the new buzz word.  IL28b, the gene that tells the tale.

Find out if you have the genes to fight this disease.

Find out if your body will work with or against the chemo drugs by having one simple test, this could revolutionize our treatment decisions.

IL28b works on the Interlukin lambna, a cytokine with antiviral components.

I'm still waiting to see when they work out the kinks and start offering testing across the board.

This is a thread I'd like to see get stuff added to as it comes up.

here's a good primer for thos not yet familiar.

http://hepatitiscnewdrugs.blogspot.com/2010/03/il28b-gene-variation-predicts-response.html

If anybody knows where testing can be obtained post it here please.
What's the cost?
Did your insurance approve the test?
Does your doctor want to see testing etc.

Post any and all relevant info please.

mb

[merryBe]

sorry but I'm really busy getting ready to leave town...just a quick check and we can talk more when I return...yes ALA helps because the fat slows the rate at which things absorb.
So even having a little oil on your rice (brown preferably) can mean you won't develop insulin resistance, assuming you treat all your carbs this way. (of course volume can negate that). And watch out for weight gain...ouch.

the best ALA is R-Ala, long discussion so we'll save it..
The hcv has shown that sugar promotes more virons ergo a higher VL but your cannot starve the virus away. You might get a little faster drop in log in ketosis, but ketosis has it's own issues and dangers for liver people...higher oxidation, lots of issues...long topic.
I'd opt to add fat to meals to get better riba absorption, sooner you get to steady state there the sooner you'll get VL down, but you could do ketosis if your VL wasn't dropping...
I would definitely say calorie restriction early on would be a good idea, again, less sugar means more INF staying in the system longer.

However, things are again not cut and dry. The real issue is that the interferon and insulin cancel each other out somewhat...the virus requires more natural INF be made, and then this INF, or what you inject, lowers insulin so the body trys to make more and more...and then the cells say enough already and shut down their receptors and won't let insulin into the cell... if you have IR it makes sense to do both dietary AND pharma to get it down.
Trials with oral IR drugs on board had higher rates of SVR across the board.

this is a long discussion...
and starving cancer cells is also not cut and dry either.
Do some tumors shrink when starved, yes, but some eat more voraciously into healthy tissue when starved because if the food isn't coming to them they go after it faster...not all tumors are created equal...there are lots of different kinds and they behave differently.

there's a new therapy for instance, called IPT, where insulin is injected into tumors...this makes certain tumors super hungry and greedy for sugar...but in overeating they then take up a lot more of what is in the blood than normal cells, and so if the blood is awash in chemo when you shoot them with insulin then the tumor takes up far more than the other cells...and this then shrinks the tumor post haste, and also makes the magic bullets of the chemo go more exclusively to where they are needed, and less goes to the normal cells..ergo the folks doing this need less meds, and also get far less sick from the chemo.......in theory whe the polymer's come out they will target the virons protein core with a similar modus operandi. The day is close when we will have these magic bullets that either target only the cell intended, or they soften up the cell for what's coming next. Both these methods have dozens of trials going on right now so in a few years the cures will not do the harm they currently do.

as to too much protein, again not simple...the answer is everything is potentially toxic when there are less cells to process it. We need fats, and some are quite good at slowing fibrosis and protecting against oxidation which leads to HCC..cancer....but too much can lead to fatty liver and more oxidation so amounts and types of fats is crucial to bone up on...with protein, well damage to the kidneys can be pronounced, they are more sensitive than the liver even, but liver patients are more prone to issues with the kidneys BECAUSE the liver is compromised already.  This is why you want to keep an eye on your salts, your clearance rates, albumin, and so forth.  Remember also that quantities have more to do with what becomes toxic that the items themselves as a general rule. Meaning drugs especially,less is better. Many things can be tolerated but their tolerance is keenly linked to quantity. It also has to do with how many items you have taxing each cytochrome.
Cytochromes process the drugs, and we have limited amounts of them as scarring and fibrous material replaces healthy tissue.
This involves studying the P450 research and is very complex as well.
If you tend to have a lot of atypical reactions to drugs you will need to find a good hepatologist and pharmacist who can keep a close eye on what you take. You can often switch one drug to a different classification or family, and use up a different set of cytochromes, and so still recieve treatment for a condition without shutting down your liver but it varies from person to person what they can tolerate. Especially if the kidneys are showing any sign of sybiotic failure you'll need to be watched carefully.
As to protein itself, well the general concensus seems to be that 2 or 3 ounces several times a day if far better than sitting down to a ten oz. steak at night.
Again, smaller amounts more often allows for less stress. A stressed liver won't repair as well as one that is constantly being strained.
If you are having difficult digesting (I'm not sure what stage you are) then I would suggest Sam-E, and some of the other things that HR has recommended. HR, Hepatitis Researcher, is a doctor who visits us in here sometimes.  If you go up to the HEALTH PAGES  and scroll down to the page I started call "HepResearcher ( Doctor) on various topics it will take you some of his threads...click on his profile and you can read all his responses....also you can go the Gauf journal's and see the regime HR recommends.

Back to protein...Think of it as your car...when does it seem happiest...when it is pulling itself up a long hill all day long, or when it is coasting on level or downhill grades.....same with us...so a steady supply of a few calories all day not only will make us healthier, and less prone to insulin issues, but will allow our liver to focus on healing and making healthy cells more often.
You can not eliminate fat or protein and make new healthy cells.....BTW...
as to proteins, I avoid all shellfish, it is very hard for a sick liver and for even healthy kidneys to deal with. I eat far more white than red meat..and fish, cheeses, tofu, mix it up...stick to.low iron diets, they are best for liver people, and I add nuts to my carb meals....like to breads, morning oatmeal, whole grain cookies, granola bars, nut breads, I bake them all...that way I can control the fat and sugar content (use stevia, and agave nectar, and you can cut the sugar to 1/4 the normal amount without noticing any taste difference).  Also, get your iron checked an if high read up on my iron threads in here.

NY girl did the ice cream diet, but she may have had no insulin resistance, and had the right genetics. Some folks are lucky, and their good genes will get them through tx to SVR regardless, but that's not the case for many.  If your genetics, your interlukin  28B is messed up, that approach could easily make the difference between clearing and not.
Look, I wish I'd known this stuff before treating, the truth is, I know people who have cleared AFTER adjusting their diets and sugars....it may not have been the ONLY reason they SVR'd, but dealing correctly with the diet could make the difference, several studies do point to this.  I sure wish I'd known sooner about the sugars...and, it's too soon for IL28b testing to be standard...so the best bet is to play it safe...no one want to repeat this tx....NO one.
Also, you can't use the A1C while treating, it won't be accurate, you need a HOMA to discover how bad your IR is if already treating.
Have you read Cowriter's journals on all this??

I'll be happy to take up these topics in greater detail when I get back from our trip...but I'm going to be gone for a couple weeks.  Check you PM's I've left you a link.
see you when I get back.

mb

[Bali05]

thanks,
did not know lower blood sugar makes more interferon available only that insulin
resistance is a tx response problem.
I find ALA with proper diet&excersise does a terrific job in lowering glucose.
I have come across cancer patients that believe in "starving" the cancer cells of sugar
and also have come across a number of Hep C people that say the virus loves sugar.

Do you believe HCV loves sugar ?

I mean NYgirl SVRd on an ice cream diet.

When you put your body into ketosis you change the metabolic response.Would
that effect the virus positive or negative in any way  ?

I understand that when your liver function is compromised that too much protein
and fat can cause problems.

I guess a low glycemic diet is better either way since it is closer to our evolutional
diet.

[merryBe]

to further answer your question, and to do so with some deference to the size of the connundrum I will also include this reference. At first I wasn't going to, as someone will probably take me to the woodshed....but this fellow is pretty smart and makes some good points...the debate about whether certain carbs are bad for us, especially as liver patients, is far from over.'

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=89203471&blogId=536199261

[merryBe]

Robert, both actually is the true answer. You may recall that we had a doctor in here for a while, who still occasionally pops in....HR....and he clued us to the lipid part of the equation so I've been trying to learn more about this ever since.
Unfortunately, even the researchers don't all concur so where does that leave us!!
I've had to just do the best I can to ferret out truth from supposition based on how much real science backed up each approach but truthfully, when the scientist themselves are still walking around the elephant trying to figure out what it is none of us can expect to fully comprehend this thing now can we.

Dointime...yup, well...plenty to cause psychosis in that group without any meds...
too bad we can't give it to the taliban...AT LEAST THEN THEY'D HAVE AN EXCUSE FOR THEIR INSANITY
.I see your point and raise you one on the do no harm front, but the truth is that outcome probably won't be achievable short term as both drugs in concert has been the only time good SVR rates have been reached. (10-15% for each drug separately).
Where hope may lie soon, is in the vaccines and pills that aide and/or cause VEVR...thing like Bristol-1 or inovios new vaccine...these lower VL in hours not days or weeks...knocking out 98% of it, and making SOC a mop up...which may mean lower doses, and/or less time treating.  My hope is to see the docs really move on these new technologies but time will tell.

[merryBe]

If memory serves I believe the general thinking was that the overweight should consider this, as the theory that maybe the virons hide in fat stores is still floating in the breeze.
I'd tend to wonder about that, since many large people clear, and many thin do not.
Logically, we can never remove all fat, so were that true who would ever SVR.
I do think weight loss is smart for those with NASH, regardless but for other obvious reasons.

As to fat and protien vs carbs I think the issue here has more to do with the glycemic index.
All food turns into sugar, regardless of it's source. What's operative is high sugar or high carbs, if they have the wrong glycemic profile will absorb too rapidly making the blood sugars go up, and thus interfering with how much interferon stays in the system.
However, since part of the issue with liver patients has to do with the build up of toxins one wants to keep a good probotic profile going as well...meaning we need to keep our systems moving and carbs, some carbs, are full of fiber and moisture as well and ergo help us to stay regular and keep ammonia and other toxins from building up.
Ergo, I don't think carbs should be eliminated, but I do think a good regime is a well balanced diet, with plenty of fiber, low glycemic carbs...(brown vs. white rice, wheat vs. white breads, low to no sugar, lots of veggies and some fruits.) fruits are a better desert than straight sugary stuff, but should be eaten in small amounts.

There are just too many vitamins and minerals one can become deficient in without that balance Bali...and a high protein diet puts undo strain on kidneys and liver. Liver people are better served by small amounts of protein (2 or 3 oz.) several times a day, as opposed to one large serving at dinner...mostly because the liver has to work harder to convert proteins.
Fat, well the right fats are showing some fibrotic reversal, but we have to balance that info with realizing that too much fat is rarely a good idea.

All that I said above need to be taken with a grain of salt,

since verdicts are clearly out on much of this thinking. I'm reminded that so many things have been said to improve outcomes (including statins) that its enough to choke a horse.

for my money, I'll bet when they do factor in the genetic profiles using the IL28b testing they may find that that had far more to do with who SVR'd than any adjunct drug some folks were on. But that's just a hunch, and nothing more.

As to the diet however, I think far more is known...I try to use "The Zone" approach.
The zone basically allows you to eat what you want, but in the right proportions to achieve that 30% from each food source model. i.e. 30% of calories from protein, carbs, and fats.
Note, that's 30% of calories from each source, by caloric value, NOT by weight or volume.
so don't eat sticks of butter.
The main reason I think this approach makes the most sense is it allows for lower blood sugars throughtout each day, which means more INF to fight the HCV remains available...AND the organs don't get as worn out.

Also it's an easy diet to follow...requires no calorie counting or weighing of food once you get used to how big the portions need to be it's pretty much brainless...one can do it in your sleep. Plus it allows for plenty of food and lots of snacks so no one feels starved or hungry, ever.
Most diet make you cut out all fats...no more avacados, or creamy anything, this one doesn't do that, and so long term folks can stick to it and make it a lifestyle much easier.
Plus, most folks who do follow it don't end up advancing from type 2 to type 1 diabetes so for my money that's worth the price of admission alone.

If you haven't read it, it's called "the Zone" by Dr. Barry Sears, and it's been around for 20 years so lots of time to see the results. There are good forums full of Zoners to help folks get going with it as well.

mb

[dointime]

bill1954 - yes that's the link - thanks for finding it.  Lots of good info there.

MerryBe - yes, I want to do the il28 test too but not until I'm getting ready to treat.  I'm hoping that the price will come down by then or my local doc will get it on his to do list.  I'm bending his ear about it at the moment.

I feel that interferon is so long term toxic that I'd be crazy to subject myself to another dose if I'm genetically predisposed for it to fail.  And forget about the riba too.  I think the military must have developed that to drive soldiers psychotic.  So I won't be exactly unhappy if I end up with a tx which is a combo of the new drugs minus SOC.  I'm really not looking to pick up any more collateral damage than absolutely necessary from my next tx.

dointime