SMOKING POT AND HCV

[HHalloway]

DATA: My BF has HCV and has been very good at cutting out all alcohol consumption and pot since he found out about his infection, about 10 years ago.

He exhibits no symptoms so far but his viral load has been slowly climbing, from 5000 in 2008 to 900,000 in 2012.

For the last 8 months, he started smoking pot again, although very occasionally (4 to 5 times a month).

His new viral count just came back and it has decreased to 500,000 :) which made us very happy, of course, since it appears his immune system was able to defeat a number of those nasty little bugs ;) (despite the fact he did smoke a bit of pot here and there :(  )

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS:

I understand that VL does fluctuate some, but I also understand that it does mostly under the following circumstances:

1- Treatment
2- Relaps
3- Normal progression of the untreated disease overwhelming the immune system and slowly taking over - aka VL climbing up as years go by.

I also understand alcohol is NOT recommended for people with HCV (not sure about pot).

I also understand that VL declining does not guaranty a future complete recovery, or even that the liver is fine, but that it is a good sign and a good thing nonetheless.

NOW THE QUESTIONS:

1- Is pot known to have any impact/effect (whether bad or good) on HCV virus or immune system and its ability to fight off virus? I could not find this topic on past thread (?). I have been advising him to not smoke, and he tends to agree that he probably should stop altogether, and willing to. But I was wondering about hard facts, statistics, outcome of case studies / research on this...

2- How common is it for a HCV infected person to see their VL decline, without any treatment, from 900,000 to 500,000 in 12 months? Is it common occurrence and no big deal or is it rare, a big deal and something to feel extra blessed about?

Thank you for sharing your experience, knowledge and opinions.

[orphanedhawk]

Regarding viral loads, the virus lives and dies all the time. Viral loads have nothing to do with the amount of damage to the liver.
I had a low viral load of 750,000 when diagnosed with hep C and decompensated cirrhosis.

I  have a problem with Bo's statement:'when we fight the virus, it scars our liver.'
A percentage of people with hep C never will have any liver damage while a percentage will and can even die from it. There is  no logic that we currently understand as to why this is true.
Scarring of the liver~ cirrhosis, can occur from hep C but it is not true in every case.
In fact some are able to fight off the virus entirely, early on, and show antibodies for HCV but are free of the virus.

[BoceprevirGal]

   Hi KT1959, and welcome to The Forum. Yes, I was like you, I just pushed my Hep C diagnosis out of my mind, until I could no longer ignore my symptoms.
Good luck in your Hep C journey. When I was first diagnosed, at age 28 yrs, they also called it "non-A non-B".
    I definitely noticed many more skin conditions, once I went thru menopause
also.  At first I tried to blame it on "old age", but I am actually rly only middle-aged, as I plan on living to 100 yr!  I did get rid of my Hep C, but still have one spider vein/bruise and a varicosity on my right calf..but at least no more have pooped up~

[KT1959]

I got very sick and was diagnosed with type a - b 44 yrs ago when I was 15.
I was told that I could eventually experience liver problems but that I had cleared the virus. I completely forgot about the experience until about 30 years later when I was reminded by the life insurance company when they tried to decline my application for a new policy. I disputed the findings so they ran additional tests and issued my policy standard. This was in 2001. I again ignored my potential liver damage and continued to live what I thought was an extremely healthy life and lifestyle.

In 2009, the year I entered menopause, my odd skin conditions got worse. The light finally went off in my head, duh!  Thanks to the Internet I self diagnosed the odd skin conditions that over many years several dermatologists could not.  Unfortunately,  I believe they are connected to hcv.

So now I am waiting until January 2014 when health care reform takes effect to see a doctor and be tested. I dare not share my revelation with any friends or family at this point.  Thanks for the opportunity to share on this site and to read all of the great info.

[HHalloway]

Luckily as of last tests he was free of He B and HIV... He has had HCV since 2004 I believe, more or less 10 years...

[BoceprevirGal]

    Yeah, when we fight the virus, it scars our liver.  A heppers body can replicate it's virus by a trillion, in 24 hrs, this virus is a nasty one~
    If your bf just caught the Hep C virus recently, then he should be okay until the New Meds arrive. In general, the Hep C virus causes damage slowly for the first 20 yrs, and then damage may begin.
   In the case of people with "co-infections", such as HIV or Hep B also, then it may move very quickly, and the damage may occur in as little time as 4 yrs.
    And I said "generally" because in medicine, we use stats, so of course, there are always rare cases, that deviate from this general norm that I have observed, in the people I know with Hep C.
   Thank you to all our great members, who help educate!  Even my own Primary Care Physcian used to give me the viral load test, at my yearly...so they also mistakenly focused on the viral load myth. I really wish they had focused on my platelet count instead!   If your platelets begin to slide below normal, it indicates damage!!
   Thirty-three% of people in the California Prison System carry the Hep C virus, and the type of riots you mentioned are common.  Fighting like this is also another way that Hep C is spread.
  
  

[HHalloway]

Thank you guys for taking the time to patiently educate me :).

He is incarcerated and got the virus when he was attacked during a riot and slashed repeatedly with a contaminated razor blade. Some of the wounds were very deep.

Because he is still in prison for the next 5 years or so, we do not have access to our own, competent doctor, and he is at the mercy of the prison doctors who are generalists doctors and not specialists. Although they do see a very large number of HVC inmates since over 30% of prisoners are now infected. You'd think each prison would have an HCV specialist but they do not have the budget to even get decent generalists so... Every time he requests to see the doctor, it ends up being a different doctor. They never seem to stick around for more than a few months and to make matters worse, they constantly rotate.

So he is not being followed and advised properly.

Even though treatment is offered and would be free of charge, it would not be free of HIGH risks because of lack of competence and monitoring. Likewise for a biopsy of the liver, which would be performed at the hospital yes, but I am sure they would then haul his *** right back to the prison, ASAP, without taking the time to really make sure he is OK... And if he had complications after returned to the prison, he could be in big trouble.

4 months ago I saw a prisoner die before my eyes while at visit. He passed out, was unconscious on the floor for a good 20 minutes before a medical person even showed up. Bunch of cops all around him punching him in the chest etc to try to make him breathe... But by the time that gurney arrived, he was good as dead. He did not make it.

For all above reasons, after carefully weighing the risks involved, we have decided to wait it out for another year, until the new generation of meds is out and if they are offered by the prison, THEN we will take the risk of the biopsy and opt for the new treatment (if biopsy indicates treatment is needed) .

Seems that right now the biopsy and treatment could be a higher risk to him than having the virus, even if it was starting to damage his liver. Afterall there is a good chance his liver is still currently  A-OK.


So.... We have to opt for the lesser of two evils.

They do not provide them with any vitamins, supplements etc to help them fight the disease. All they get is that $2 a day food the prison feeds everyone, which is less than nutritious (who can eat on $2 a day?). No fresh fruits or vegetables to speak of. Add to that the extreme stress of being locked up, confined to a 7X10 cell 23 hrs a day and the constant fear of getting shanked, attacked or worse... With so much stress it is a wonder his immune system is working AT ALL...

Having HCV is no picnic, but having HCV AND having it in prison is a real *****.

[Willy50]

I'm in a trial....

My interview viral load was 6 million and in 12 days later (before dosing) it was 2.8 million.

One can infer so many different things could impact it.....
but one would be guessing.
(or perhaps..... worse *magically* attributing your desires to the reason for the viral load change)  
(see?  it's *science*; hahhahahaah)

Further..... viral load has less and less to do with response viral kinetics anymore.

With the newer forms of treatment the meds kill the virus no matter what you've got.

I personally think pot may be fine short term, like during TX,
but I think it's possible it is not as benign as we might hope, and smoking is smoking; it may contribute to fibrosis.....

Some doctors do not care so much.... but....some will take a dim view of it.....as though you are drinking alcohol....

So even if you were to be right..... you may pay a certain price w/ relations with some doctors.

willy

[Dee1956]

Everyone above it right, I had a VL of over 7M, right before treating it was 300K.  I have cirrhosis
Good luck

[willbb]

How common is it for a HCV infected person to see their VL decline, without any treatment, from 900,000 to 500,000 in 12 months?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Very common ,,even in a one day period  by that much,,,everyday.

As copyman stated:

That is not uncommon at all. As odd as it sounds there is not much difference in those two amounts(900 thousand and 500 thousand) ,as this is the measurement in only  1 mil of blood therefore if you can think about the virus replicating literally by the billions and at the same time being destroyed by your immune system, all on a daily basis.

Viral load has no correlation to amount of liver damage that is happening.There are many people with lower viral loads  that have progressed to cirrhosis and conversely very high VL. (in the tens of millions with no or mild damage)

best of luck to you and your BF

Will

[Idyllic]

Sorry but the actual number of the viral load does not have the relevance that you seem to be trying to arithmetically reason.

Viral load can fluctuate to very high numbers and then low one. It is not a constant. When the number matters the most is for those who are treating as it indicates whether the meds are working.

I have a friend whose viral load is lower than your BF and she has stage 3 fibrosis. Her liver enzymes are not even elevated.

Like you she thought she was OK since she had a low VL. She was very unhappy when when she discovered this because her primary care doctor lead her to believe she was OK. (Ha for a minute there she wondered if she could sue)

You say your bf has had HCV for 10 years ....does he know what stage of fibrosis he is?

I am sorry you have been so mislead. It takes a while to catch on,
Your BF is lucky to have someone as perseverant as you to advocate on his behalf.

[copyman]

Look at this way, the immune system is in a constant battle with the Hep C virus, some days the immune system wins (low VL) and other days HCV wins (high VL). This battle going on inside the body is what makes a person feel bad, i.e. fatigue, joint pain, etc.

VL means nothing unless treating and used as a gauge to see how treatment is working. 5 million is no different then 500,000.
Don't read into the VL's. Be more concerned with LFT's and other bloodwork.

I would treat now that the VL is low. This disease has a way of sneaking up on you and biting you in the butt. Then it could be to late to treat.

Best of luck

[HHalloway]

Sorry parts of my previosu post got removed when I hit "POST". This is what I read on the net:

Your viral load is the amount of specific viruses that you have, in a given volume of your blood (usually 1 milliliter = 1 cubic centimeter). More precisely, it means that the amount of Hep C genetic material found in your blood corresponds to as many Hep C viruses as the given number says. Therefore the given number denotes "viral equivalents."

[HHalloway]

Forgive my ignorance, but am I incorrect in assuming that a viral load decreasing indicates the immune system is getting ahead of the virus, and preventing its proliferation? Which means less virus to fight, which would ultimately mean less damage to the liver while fighting? And that, should the immune system continue to do the same efficient work (this is all hypothetical of course), it would eventually kill all the virus - end of disease? (I have heard of infected patients being able to autocure themselves without treatment, although how they got to achieve that remains a mystery to science, so I read.)

If these "selfcuring" patients were to have had their VL monitored regularly while their immune system was effectively winning over the virus, would the VL not show a smaller and smaller number? Seems to me, logically, it would have to, ending eventually with a non detectable amount when HCV has been cured. (?)

I read on the net: <>

So if you have 900,000 viruses in one mil of your blood, and then have only 500,000 in one mil of your blood, doesn't that mean you have (more or less) 50% less viruses strolling about your body? So how can having 50% less viruses in your blood be "really no change".  I mean, yes I understand having 50% less virus does not mean you are cured, or will be, but it still seems to me to be A CHANGE :), and for the better.

As I said I am new at this and you guys been at it for a while, so I am eager to read your more detailed explanations so I can understand how this puzzle all fits together :). Many thanks!

[BoceprevirGal]

    It is a common misnomer(mistake/error) that viral load has anything
to do with how the Hep C is affecting us.
   Some things that I have noticed(observed) are this:  for people like me, that always had a relatively low viral load (usually it was between 60,000~ 600,000,
I think this may indicate that our immune systems are quite affectively killing tons of virus, everyday.  This fight is what causes the scarring inthe liver, which leads ro cirrhosis.
   So you see, it is our own immune systems fighting the virus, that cause the damage, not the actual Hep C virus.  If an Individuals' immune system chooses not to notice, and then fight the virus, then a person will have a viral load in the millions (as high as 30 million or more), and many times, have no damage to their liver.
    A person with a lower viral load under a million may be slightly easier to treat, or may clear the virus faster, tehn a person with a higher viral load, but only by about 5%~
  Also...(drum-roll) there are all kinds of exciting new meds coming soon, which will yield an easy Hep C Treatment, much shorter then the ones of the past, about 12 weeks, and a 98% cure rate. The next one comingout in 2014 will be Sofosbuvir.
   The viral load is not at all important, except when we are on the treatment meds, so we know the meds are killing the virus.
  Have yr bf find a good Hepatologist, to line up his treatment options, and good luck

[gibsongal]

there are studies, and they are doing more all the time
,
that they think the CBD part of the make up of cannabis can help cancer.

There is a liquid tincture legal in Europe with high CBD and it helps calm  muscle spasms from MS
i read a case study where they used a salve with a high CBD percent on lesions from Kaposi’s sarcoma skin lesions..they shrank.. so who knows..

To the best of my knowledge, the CBD  is what is the healing part and that percent has to be big to be effective in treating health problems.
The neutraceuitcle industry is working on products that remove much of the THC and have high CBD . They may be on to something.. lets hop so!

helps my nausea, pain and gives me some energy if the right "brand" and mental relief from  this health vortex i seem to be in..

Best of luck..

oh
i was wondering.. how often Dr.'s check the V.L. of Hep c?

mine has not been checked since October 2011.
I am not worried really but....i do suffer from extreme muscle joint pain  gets worse when i exert myself...
my hands are so cramped i can barely do dishes etc..

[can-do-man]

Sorry that should be "log form" instead of "long form"

[can-do-man]

Ones viral load can change daily, no meaning at all to that unless one is treating. Besides a viral load of 900,000 to 500,000 is really no change. In long form it would be 5.95 to 5.7 so while the numbers make it look like a lot it s really the same.

Different views as for smoking pot, myself I don't see any harm in the occasional toking..... Best of luck to you both