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15192678 tn?1439084434

Considering drastic measures

Hi all.  I have really enjoyed reading the forums.  There are wonderful people here and I feel like this is a safe place.  I'm looking for chronic pain sufferers that can help me process through some upcoming decisions.  I am a 46 year old music teacher that has a wonderful family support.  I have a birth defect of my left foot and ankle.  Since birth I have had 27 reconstructive surgeries, the last being amputation of the second and third digits.  That's a bit misleading because I would not have classified them as toes as they were grossly deformed.  I have a calcification growth on the bottom that is inoperable as it has nerves, tendons, and vessels running through it.  It is painful, and I am taking 30-40 mg of Hydrocodone daily to manage the pain very successfully.  I am not immobile, but I do use a cane some days.  I am VERY active and an avid cyclist.  The defect does not hinder me on the bike at all.  I do, however, have dreams of being able to run, play sports like basketball, and would someday love to be able to do an iron-man race.  There is no way I can do those things now.

I recently saw a news story about a young lady who was a senior at one of our local high schools and was the star soccer player at her school.  She has a prosthetic leg from an amputation when she was very young.  My wife and I began a "what if" dialogue.  

I am planning to have a conversation with my doctor the next time I see him on whether or not I may be a candidate for amputation and being fitted with a prosthetic foot.  Here's my question - I can walk now, but do have pain and it seems that I would be able to walk better with less discomfort if I had this surgery.  Is this an insane idea, and would it be considered a "voluntary" amputation.  No doctor has ever suggested it, but they have suggested very complicated surgeries that will leave my unable to walk unassisted and may or may not take care of the chronic pain issue.
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Avatar universal
I too am glad that you came back to give us an update. Sometimes we get people that will post a time or two and then we never hear from them again. We're left to wonder if they're doing alright or not.
I agree with Tuck. I don't think you're on to high of a dose. Many of us find that our pain medications give us only 2 to 3 hours of relief. We're all different and respond to these meds differently. It sounds like you're one of those people that their meds do last 6 hours and that's a wonderful thing. If you do start having more pain in between that time don't hesitate to let your Dr know about it. There is no reason for anyone to suffer needlessly when there are pain meds to help us and we also have a Dr like yours who is willing to help. You can also insist, again, that he tell you what over the counter meds you can take with your prescription. Some of us can take Ibuprofen or acetaminophen  along with our pain meds but it all depends on what we're taking. Actually, you can ask your pharmacist about this.
I hope you will update us on your visit when you get the chance. Or, just stop by to talk. This is a wonderful forum and the people here are so very nice and supportive.
Take care. I hope we hear from you soon.  

Please don't think your pain is any "better" then the 3 of us because chronic pain can change your life in so many ways.
Helpful - 0
547368 tn?1440541785
Thanks for the update - and please excuse my tardy response.

I am delighted you are looking at all options. As I said earlier this is a decision only you can make. I'm certain you've given it lots of thought and will continue to do so. You may my support no matter what your choice.

10mg of Hydrocodone every six hours is not in the least an over-the-top dose. Indeed it's what I take. I have even been higher so you should not be concerned.

When one has true pain our body utilizes opiates as they were designed. It's probably the reason we don't understand the "high" others obtain.

When I intitially began opiate therapy I was reluctant and afraid of the future. My awesome physician at the time tried to reassure me I would not become and addict and there were no long term side effects. I reluctantly took very low doses of opiates. One day my physician told me the story of a little girl that had cancer. The little girl was ordered a large dose of an opiate - which her parents were reluctant to give her but due to her pain had no choice. The dose never made the little girl act stoned or drugged but reduced her pain - thus her parents became more comfortable with offering it to her as she went through a horrific battle with cancer. As the little girl began to improve it was she that one day refused the opiate when her parents offered it. She said, "My body doesn't need that medicine anymore." My Doc said this was the simplest way to explain what an opiate is suppose to do and how it is suppose to be utilized - and even a child knew that.

You'll know if you don't need that larger dose - and you'll know if you don't need the opiate any more - if you listen to the child that lives within you.

I am glad that you have better pain control. It was good to hear from you. Please continue to keep in touch.

Wishing you the Best,
~Tuck
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15192678 tn?1439084434
Hello al.  I know it's been a while since I've posted so I thought i'd give a quick update.  First, I have an appointment with KU med center talk about surgical options, and amputation.  My wife and I will try to pick the lesser of the two evils.  I'll update later.  Second, I did talk to my doctor about my pain not wuite being managed.  I asked if there was a non-narcotic solution that I could take with the hydrocodone.  He simply increased my dose of the hydrocodone.  He said that someone like me with such an obvious defect was a good candidate for the higher dose.  It is now 10mg every 6 hours.  I feel like that's a ton.  Thoughts?  It does seem to control pain better at that dose.
Helpful - 0
7721494 tn?1431627964
I am very happy that you've decided to talk this over with your docs. Thank you for telling us this.

Now I realize that my post was "in your face." I wanted to challenge you. I am by nature, pugnacious.

I also realize that daily intractable pain can make one crazy. I've been crazy for years. Don't get me started on what I think about this old world.

I like crazy people -- stay that way.

But don't cut your foot off. You lose a lot of options that way.

Do you massage that foot to take some of the pain away? I live with a foot neuropathy that leaves me with ice cold feet in the winter, and red hot feet in the summer, exactly when I lay down to rest. I hate my feet.

So, I get up and stamp them. I show them who's boss. I go stamping around the house for a while -- sometimes I walk out in the desert -- the sand and gravel works well for this.


You see, there's a physiological mechanism behind that action that I won't explain, but it's there. You can read about it in a neurology text book.

Cut off that foot, and you lose that option.

And I've got maybe a half-dozen more medical reasons why cutting off a foot cause it hurts is not a good idea.

That's what a coyote would do. They get their foot in a snare, and they've been known to chew it off. Many a coyotes foot are found in snares around here, and three legged coyotes are not an uncommon sight in these hills.

Coyotes bloody a sheep pen -- this cannot be tolerated in a land where a family's wealth is measured in sheep.

But you are not a coyote, even though humans share over 90% of our DNA with other mammals. You have 'white' brain cells that permit you to do what very few mammals can do -- you can reason.

I want you to use those cells -- think this out, and that starts with talking to your doctor.

So, I ask you to forgive my bristly manner. Where I live, everything has thorns -- on the outside.

Peace.
Helpful - 0
547368 tn?1440541785
I'm glad we made you think - and thank you for you kind words for us.

I think your pain is poorly managed. I'm delighted to hear you'll be discussing options with your PMP.

You're post reminds me of a story my husbands tells about his beloved Uncle George. Back in the day Uncle George had a foot that hurt - hurt bad for years. He'd often say to my husband, "Bobby, this  %@*#  foot hurts."  Uncle George got tired of the pain, drank a bottle of whiskey and shot his foot off. That gun apparently was Uncle George's PMP.  :0)  I wish I knew the rest of the story. I know by my husband's accounts that Uncle George lived for just a few years after - that's all I know.

Don't shoot your foot off my friend - but do find some better options to control your pain. Come run in dreams with the rest of us! Keep in touch our new friend in pain.

My best to you - and God Bless you also.

Peace,
~Tuck
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Avatar universal
You are so far from being a whiner. You have valid concerns about your quality of life and levels of pain.
I'm so glad you found this website and this forum. The people here are wonderful, as I'm sure you've found that out for yourself.
Most everyone here is dealing with some level of pain and that doesn't mean we're all not suffering, even on a "good" day. Pain effects every part of our lives.
You've gotten some of the best advice you can possibly get. Phil and Tuck are so very caring and knowledgeable. Both of them have been here to help me more than they could even know.
I wish I could tell you that amputation would solve the problem. I keep thinking about my father in law who lost his leg above the knee in an accident. He suffered with phantom pain for the rest of his life. There was nothing that took away that pain. His case was very different from yours though because his was an accident. If I were you I would do a great deal of research on phantom pain after an amputation. It could be that this is very rare in people who choose to have the surgery compared to people that have to have it done. If it would be possible to talk with people who have had this surgery that would be great.
I don't know what your foot looks like but has the discussion every came up about doing a prosthetic with the way your foot is now?  
I see that you're in pain management. How is your relationship with your Dr, and do you feel like you're pain is being treated at a tolerable level? I'm asking because many of us are being under medicated.
I hope you do keep in touch with us. We're always here to listen and help any way we can.
Helpful - 0
15192678 tn?1439084434
Philnoir, Remar, and Tuck,

Thank you all for your input.  You have definitely challenged me to think about things differently.  If it sounds like I'm looking for an easy fix, I am.  I do understand that there really is no easy fix.  I've lived with this my whole life but only recently has it become a big issue in my life.  The pain really ramped up 6 years ago, prompting that last surgery and consultations with other surgeons.  There is one that was willing to perform a procedure, but the outcome would involve me not being able to walk unassisted, which I can mostly do now.  It was also questionable wether or not it would take care of the pain.  I know I sound like a whiner, but I'm just not at a point where I'm not interested in beginning surgeries again that have follow-up after follow-up surgeries.  

Tuck, your comment about having a foot that works well enough to walk, even though it's painful, really hit a nerve with me.  You're right, and I think that is a comment worth thinking about pretty critically.  On days when my pain is at higher levels, it's very difficult for me to move around my classroom and be cheerful.  I constantly have to check my attitude to make sure kids aren't getting a side of me that they don't deserve.  I know I'm preaching to the choir about that here in this forum.

A part of me thinks that if they just lop the sucker off and fit me with one of the new techno-dangle-dangle prosthetics, all of those issues will be magically solved.  I'm realistic enough to know that most likely won't be the case, and will, in fact, open up a whole new can of worms of issues.

Again, thank you all for your feedback, and being honest and holding that mirror up to my face.  I have my regular check up with my PM doctor in September and plan to discuss opening up the "options" dialogue again.

God bless you three, and know that you are all in my thoughts and prayers with your own battles.  From what I'm gathering mine are nothing compared to the war that you all are waging.  I will keep in touch.
Helpful - 0
547368 tn?1440541785
Hi Again,

You've received some great suggestions/advice from Remar and Phil, as they always do. We're three ppl with far different backgrounds but united due to this monster called Chronic Pain. We all see situations a bit different which in my opinion gives you more rounded points of view.

Being in the medical field for years I cared for and met multiple ppl with phantom pain,  the pain Phil and Remar have brought up to you. Today there are better treatments for that Phantom Pain, brought about by the loss of a limb, including a foot. Some ppl respond better to the medications then others - come ppl experience extreme Phantom Pain - others are better controlled with at least two different meds, not just one as you are currently taking.

I too think it would be voluntary - however I've also seen physicians or surgeons be able to change this voluntary surgical status to a "needed" one. That may be the least of our problems.

Ask anyone of us - we'll tell you what we've had to give up due to each of our (different) disabling medical conditions. I played on 3 Softball Leagues,  coached Little League, multiple water activities (we lived on a lake) two "management" positions (one PT and one FT) - played piano - get where I'm going. My life was very active and I loved it. It was me! My little red sports car was hit head on by a loaded dump truck. I lost the ability to do the things I loved. I understand your want to run - Lord to run again! I get it - and I bet Remar and Phil get it too. Yes we're not 30 anymore but that doesn't mean when our active lives ended some years ago we didn't miss all those things - and still miss them.

I try to remember what my Grandma use to tell me, an old saying; "I felt sorry for myself because I had no shoes, until I met a man that had no feet."  

Even though I am figuratively the person that has no feet - I look at myself as the person that has no shoes. No I can't run, I can't sit long enough to play more than a few pieces on the piano - no I can't bend, reach or pull - but I am alive and able to enjoy what I do have - it could be so much worse. I have so many blessings and joys. I do my best to help others, and find joy in doing so. I believe that many ppl with Chronic Pain deal with their "disabilities" or situation with that or a similar attitude.

So as said by others, this decision has to be between you, your loved ones and your surgeon. Think long and hard. You have a foot, even though it produces pain, it works well enough for you to walk.

A word of caution, as Phil said; some years ago you would have more options in opiate pain management - today regardless of your situation or diagnosis (unless terminal cancer) your pain management options are/will be limited.

A few years ago I was on triple the medications I am today. I have a non-cancerous but terminal diagnosis. It doesn't matter, opiates are prescribed at a very minimum. The War continues against Chronic Pain Patients. You encountered a bit of it when you were out of town at a different Walgreens. What would occur if you had the amputation, what if your pain was worse and difficult to control? What would happen? Lots to consider - but again our friend in pain - it has to be your choice.

My heart goes out to you. I understand the desire to run and participate and all the activities you are "missing"!! I get it.  I run in my dreams! :o)  It's Awesome! I awake with a smile on face and warmth in my heart. Now I'm probably rambling.

We're here for you no matter what your decision. Please be active in our community - join our group. I'll look forward to hearing your decision - or sharing in the thoughts of the process to a decision. Stay close.

My Best to You,
~Tuck
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
I would consider an amputation of your foot to be a voluntary operation because your condition is not life threatening.
This is a decision only you, your wife and you Dr can make. If you decide to have the foot amputation there could be phantom pain after the surgery that you have to deal with, This happens with some people who have lost a limb. This is something you would have to talk to your Dr about.
I do understand your desire to be even more active and to do the race. See your Dr and talk to him/her about this. They may be able to set you up with a surgeon to go over your options.
You just did post your questions so there are many members who have not read it yet. We have wonderful and very knowledgeable members here who I'm sure will give you their advice.
We're always here to listen and help anyway we can.
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7721494 tn?1431627964
Hello Lamducky. Welcome to the pain community. I'm Doc Spider, aka, philnoir. Thank you for your comment.

To answer your question -- yes. It's a stupid idea because you haven't yet thought it through. For example, how can you press the sustain pedal and work the una corda for those beautiful Beethoven sonatas with one foot? The feedback one feels that's required to play legato passages cannot come through a steel toe.

And you haven't explored the physiological pain problems that come with a condition called phantom pain.

To be brief, pain signals pass up your leg from the nerves of the peripheral nervous system, and synapse in the spine. This is where pain begins and ends for some. But for many, especially amputees, phantom pain, an echo of the leg pain you feel today, sends its messages up the cord to the brain, where it connects to an emotional center in the mid-brain called the amygdala. There's no short-circuiting this connection. Your amygdala will continue to remind you daily of the pain you thought was left behind in some hospital laboratory.

A brief trip to Wikipedia will give you a clue of this untenable situation. Search for Phantom Pain.

First, let me tell you that Hydrocodone 40-60mg/day is what was once considered a treatment for mild to moderate pain -- only 10 years ago.

Back then, with a good pain doctor (a medical professional well trained in chronic pain neurophysiology, pain psychology, opioid mechanics, compassionate, experienced, self-confident, humble, and courageous), you'd be on a combination of morphine-like opioids, titrated to achieve 60% analgesia, or more.

Today, we fight for every reduction in pain score we can get. We do it through a variety of methods -- providing support here is one. Education is another. Mentoring of young pain doctors, and life-coaching of old, burnout docs. And telling the world of the #1 epidemic in America today, discounting mass psychosis -- 100 million Americans who live with daily, intractable moderate to severe pain.

A majority of the 100-million do not know where to turn. People like Tuck, Remar, and myself help a few here every day. I invite others to join in.

Please. Don't let my medical dictionary-based vocabulary intimidate you. What people here need daily that I am usually unable to supply is emotional support. That's because I too live with chronic severe pain, daily.

You need more help than you are getting. We know more about chronic pain today than we knew years ago. One thing we understand is that it "takes a village" to treat it. I'm speaking of a variety of treatment options that lower your pain score one point at a time.

No, you'll never be the next Edwin Moses (or even Edwina). If this is your burning desire, find another way.

Me, I once helped people daily using my medical knowledge. Many special relationships developed out of my work, and although it was hard, I loved it. I miss it today and everyday. My workaround is hanging out in places like this.

Please excuse what I'm going to say next. You haven't thought this through. You're not using your brain and you're not thinking about the others in your life who love you.

You're certainly not thinking medically, and that's the first thing I recommend for people like you, who have the capacity to understand what I have come to understand about pain, its treatment, and what is right for your particular set of pain symptoms. Oh, that's something else too -- this isn't one source of pain, but a complex system of painful stimuli. Addressing it requires a journey of discovery, and a search for treatment. Today, it also demands a toughness, a determination, and the ability to work with your doctors as a equal partner in this thing you wish to accomplish. It's your thing, not theirs. Don't let them take it from you. What many don't realize is that if you bring the right stuff, your doctors will happily surrender control over your treatment options and act as a wise counselor instead of a adamant gatekeeper.

The choice is yours -- I'm giving it to you now. What's it going to be?

If anything I've written here today interests you, we'll be here to talk some other day, God willing.

You have the ability to message me privately here. Just right click on my name, and find my profile.

Hope to see you back here again, teach. In the mean time, I'll leave you with a reminder of what this life is all about, courtesy from the soul singer, Rev. Al Green.

Love and happiness.

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