Still more buprenorphine confusion

[Bodymechanic]

I doubt there has ever been an opiate drug that was more poorly understood by it's users.  In one of your posts you write that suboxoxone absorbsion is from 50-90%.  Is this from measuring blood levels?  Also, hairysoda writes in a previous post that he changed from 4amps of buprenx to 12 mg of suboxone.  Correct me if I am wrong, but is'nt this an almost 10 fold increase in dosing?  Yet you never mention this in spite of the fact he is asking about getting off the drug totally. What is a high dose? What is a low dose?  Are there any long term side effects with use over many years?  Is buprenorphine addictive and at what dose?  I have been using buprenophine for almost 6 months now and no-one has been able to answer even the most basic of questions.

Any information beyond the usual press releases would be most helpful.

Thanks

Bodymechanic

[skipper]

bodymechanic:

1)bup is addictive. the search for a chemical that can eliminate the pain of opiate addiction or it's w/d is like the alchemist from the dark ages puttering about for the "philosopher's" stone. (a magick rock that changes all metal into gold.) or a least so far. if a drug can significantly relieve w/d from opiates...it is an opiate, therefore addictive.

2) about bup...it has no euphoria. it offers only relief from w/d. i have some friends who claim it relieves pain, but i never found that to be the case.

3) with all due respect...after 6 months, why are you still on bup? many people "like the idea of being addicted to dope"....but why one that does not offer a high? it is in your best intrest to start a very slow taper and get the hell off this bup ****. for what ever it's worth....bup is just the same "old time junk" that some pusher (the pharmaceutical industry) has dressed up in "nice clothes!"

4) if you are going to use bup....keep in mind less is better,
both in amount, and length of time used. bup is a good detox tool,
just remeber, don't "cuddle up" with this **** for any significant
length of time!

as always...keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[hairysoda]

good morning. as you know that since changing to bup your life has been lees confusing,not worrying or craving anything.So yes we have substituted one drug for another. im sure you know that there is some addiction to this drug at any level. as to your statement about my dose being raised my doctor told me the reason for the difference is that there is a caculation by the people that makes this stuff on the difference with the way it is injested. bup is with an injection goes right into the blood thru the mussle and is absorbed with most of the drug. with the suboxone it is subligual(under the tounge)and the amount of the drug that gets injested is different and also in a pill with 8mgs not all of the mgs are bup some are naxolene. i must say that i feel the drug much more this way and it seems to be much stronger but i have cut the pills in halve. i was told that you are suppose to take the hole dose in the morning but i found that i wanted more in the afternoon, just as i did when i was doing the shots. with the oxone i find i wake up in the morning not really craving my morning dose as i used to when i was taking the shots and also not to mention i dont have to mess around with those ugly needles anymore and no risk of infectons on your arm, which i had two very bad ones.you know you said that there is no long term trials or anything like that with this drug and your worried about the long term affect on your body but when you were using did you think of the same thing or did you care? what imn getting at is especially a guy like you and me how cant you be happy that this is available to us. we have an obtion.Doit or dont do it.and i haver been doing it for to long now and i would like to stop.i know it wont be easy as i did stop off of bup in the beginning when i first was introduced to it and the weening off of it was slow al little less every day until you finnally quit but the w/d's were there baybe not the body w/d's like the cramps and rls stuff but the depression and the letharys was there for about a week to 10 days and then you got better one day at a time,but then i relasped and stated to do what i did and then i went back on the bup and have been on since. im very grateful for the oxone since now at least my insurance company will pay for it as they wouldnt pay for the amps. lets try to get this thread going so we can get some feedback from others that are on this suboxone.resopond and tell me about your experiances with this drug. thanks and have a good day

[SarpyJesse]

I'm looking for all the information on Buprenorphine that I can glean-- and this thread has potential.

Your story and experience with Buprenex and then Suboxone is strikingly similar to one of our longtime posters here who was known as "Groovy"-- If you two could get together and compare your stories, you'd be amazed at how very much alike you two are. It's almost like you two are the same person!

Anyhow, If anyone has anything relevant to add to the thread, please do. I'd like to weigh the positives vs. the negatives in order to make a decision whether to begin treatment with this drug.

Thanks-
JesseSarpy

[mrmichael67]

First off, 8mg stands for 8mg of bup.  Every last mg of that is bup, not bup and naloxone.  There is either 2mg of bup and then naloxone or 8mg of bup and then naloxone.  Second, hairysoda is right about ingesting it.  When it, and other opiates including morphine, go through the liver, only a certain percentage is left for use by the body.  Some, like oxycodone, have a high yield...anywhere from 80% to 90% depending on what you read.  I know morphine is 40%.  Thus, the wide variation of dosages from oxycodone to morphine....157.5mg to 202mg of oxycodone orally is equal to 315mg to 404mg of oral morphine.  When used IV, the dose of morphine is only 53mg to 67mg.  Look at this http://www.globalrph.com/narcotic.htm and you will see what I mean.  I agree with Skipper on bup being dressed up dope.  It comes from the same plant.  It just doesn't get you high.  I heard it gives a nice feeling of well being and that's it.

[hairysoda]

are you a dr?or a scientist? you sound so professional. this is not an insult im curious. you gave us some imformation bt you really didnt say anything about how the bup breaks down in the body when it is taken sublinqual.is it comprable to the amount you would get if injected? and yes it does give you a feeling of well being not a high but im not sure that what it does is take away w/d sytoms/pardin my spelling. it also makes you very tired after a while especially at night when you come home from work and try to relax,you know watch tv-chat on line and all of a sudden your starting to nod. i mean the same nod you get from perecet or vivodin those were my drugs of choice. i was luckey really i started my recovery just beforre oxy came out. i say my recover but it has been almost 3 years now that i have been on bup. but it is a lot better than those pills. the one thing aboput the bup is that it doesnt build up in your system,you dont have to increase the amount you take. well thats it for now. im thinking seriously about writting a book about this stuff and my experiances. well mr michael give us some more of your knowledge  thank you and by the way are you using this stuff or whats your story

[Chezz2]

Hairy,

May I ask? How did you come up with that name. Just curious.
Its not the typical name you can attribute to something related to addiction.
Seeing as how you have been on Bup for 3 years I would figure you would have a story for that handle, or at least I would hope.
So you were on "vividon" and "perecet" before the bup and they were your drugs of choice. Must of been a while since you have taken them, huh.
So how have you been able to be on bup for so long? It is surprising since it is something that is well regulated and relatively hard to get. Are you located in a state that it is easier to get Rxed? Especially with a continuous supply.
I know a lot of people here who have had to jump through hoops just to get it for detox. So for a three year stint, you must have some good connections or docs on the in with the dea.
Any more info you can give would sure help out a lot of people on this forum that have been literally begging to get Rx bup.
Regards,
Chezz

[Chezz2]

PS. I am currently on oxycontin and am very interested in switching to bup. So any info you can give would be greatly appreciated.
Since you have been on it so long I would assume you would have a plethra of knowledge regarding it.
If you would rather email me with info, I would appreciate it.
My email address is ***@**** if you don't already have it. I have been posting here for quite some time.
Thanks,
Chezz

[bsills]

Be careful with Bup because it is a combination Opioid Aganonist/Antagonist.  Thus, for example, if you shoot heroin while on Bup you could get pretty severe withdrawal symptoms.

[mrmichael67]

Everything I wrote is readily available on the web.  The beautiful thing about the internet is you can become educated without having to shell out money to a university.  If you inject bup or anything iv, it goes right into you.  If you take it orally or sublingually, at least some will go through the liver.  Sublingually is better then straight oral because a lot of it gets absorbed under the tongue and goes right into the circulation.  Some does get swallowed.  With oral, it all has to be digested.

[bsills]

One should switch from Bup to something else as quickly as they can. I do not believe in maintanance. If you want to have an easy detox, Bup is great.  But like with Methadone, one can get hooked into the psychological and physical addiction of any mind altering substance. Indeed, one should not stay with any substitute opiate for more than a few days or a week, if possible.

[mrmichael67]

One has to take into account tolerance and length of habit.  A few days to a week for someone who takes two grams of morphine a day for a couple of years is just going through the motions.  Nothing is being accomplished, besides masochism.  I do concur with the basic idea of that, but everyone is different.

[Thomas03]

You don't believe in maintenance? For anyone? Please cite the CURRENT scientific research upon which your belief is founded.

Thomas

[SarpyJesse]

I'm sure that if everyone is patient, we'll be privy to Bsill's secret formula~! I'll bet it has something to do with enemas that "Cleanse the body of toxins".... Yes, YOU TOO can find the "Cure" for only $99.95! One hot water bottle, a rubber tube, and some vaseline, and you will get those evil toxins out of your system!

Now I remember why I haven't posted here in a long time.....
Give me a Freakin' break!

JesseSarpy

[vettezr1]

Dude, if your still around I can't figure out from your posts if you have found a way to deal with the back pain with out pills or not. If you don't mind if you have, can you pass it along.
I take no meds but have to admit my back and legs are killing me.
I can't sleep worth a ****. I can work out ok pain does not get much worse it just really bothers me at night. I was really hoping I would have built back up a tolerance to some degree to this old pain but so far nothing, I stopped all meds well over a month ago, could I still be in some kind of WD?
Oh and everyone pain doc gave me this **** called Topamax for chronic pain DONT TAKE IT, I did for a little over a week lost 18lbs puked every ******* day. friggin doc told me it wasn't the med until I looked it up on the Net it didn't help with pain and has really bad side effects I swear to God they must get kick backs from the drug companies.

[Chezz2]

If I had to guess it is the Groovster trying to **** people off since we found out YET ANOTHER one of her suedo's.
I think she is getting pissed we can spot her from a mile away.

Chezz

[mrmichael67]

Take, for instance, you go into a clinic and get the group that is on maintenance.  Are you implying your post would pertain to each and every one of them?  I ask this because of the general nature of your post.  I can honestly say your rule could pertain to SOME people, but ALL?  There are far too many factors involved.  Each case is individual.  It should be treated as such.  Thank God maintenance is around.  I couldn't imagine it not being there for the people that really need it.  And, it is around for a reason.  The govt. saw it as a necessity and allowes it to exist to this day.

[Thomas03]

It's clear from your "answer" that you know nothing about the neurological effects of long-term chronic opiate abuse. Before you dismiss maintenance and the people on maintenance, I suggest you try to actually learn something about the subject.

Thomas

[skipper]

bodymechanic:
i don't want to sound pushy or nosy, but why have you stayed on bup the length of time you claim too? isn't it quite expensive? has your
md that Rx's bup not been concerned? i'm sorry, i just find it hard to understand being addicted to an opiate that doesn't give you the feeling of God's Own Medicine. I'm not down on maintainence, i just
can't understand why someone would want to do it with bup.

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[theGolden1]

in a certain way we are all "maintaining" always be prepared a state of being.
In your case the brubronexmake you feel good about youself and keeps the obsessive compulsive past of you from coming around.
i believe that one must indulge in the faith that .... it's reaaly all kool. What we all need is holistic medicine ....treat the entire person. I am finding out about the shiatzu massage. Just one holistic approach could be very educational as well as helping me to get in touch with my self in a vrey important way.
Maintainence implies certain limitations ... but I think the opposite is true. I want to be free of drugs, but I also want to be free of pain. The answer is somewhere in the middle. What meditation or workout could make a difference in the way I relate to drugs?  .... theGolden1

[mrmichael67]

The answer to proper pain management is not only through medication.  I think that is a great idea.

[mrmichael67]

Why are you against maintenance?  And, what is up with this "I know something that you don't" attitude?  C'mon Beverly, what is the big secret?

[bsills]

I am against maintainance generally speaking because I think people should try to get off the Junk.  Most junkies overestimate their physical habituation because of the strong psychological addiction aspect to using Opiates.  It is real easy to fool yourself into thinking you need a lot of "maintainance".

[hairysoda]

you all talk about this maintainence thing like its a cognitive chice of an addict. believe me in my case and im sure with others just like me you have to look yourself in the mirror and really ask yourself what the **** is going on.How did i get here? Why am i here?and How the **** can i get free. im sorry to all if i ramble but im new to this group and i have alot i want to share with you all.i started another thread so you all can read my writtings there about my experiances with bup and suboxone to how i even take it and the horible taste.my name is HAIRYSODA that has been my name for many years and to the person who asked about it really there is no story ablut why except that im a hairdresser in south florida and i also had a vending business ant the time and i sold soda and snacks so the become hairysoda. now the reason i am on this thread. this guy bsills what can i say but dont let this guy bother youall. he has something to share believe me except with him you really have to read between the lines he doesnt just come out with it but maybe he will so give him a chance. when he talks about maintaince and it is a cop out i wish it was the truth but it isnt. someone asked why would you do a drug like bup for so long and spend so much money without even getting high-you must be crazy- well the truth is it is addicting and i traded one drug which was either perecet or vicidan for another. the problem is that yu just cant stop taking this either and you have to make up your mind to wean off but when you try it get difficult you dont feel good you start to go in to withdrawals.there is no problem finding it here where i live actually i think this is the area of the country that it started. drug detox centers popped up all over the place and when i originally started about 3 years ago i was on a 20 t0 25 per day habit.man i thought i was in heaven no going to the hospital for detox you can do it at home except for the injections man in the beginning i thought i would die im a pill pusher not a junky man i was freaked. but after a while i was like a pro giving myself injections on the fly i mean in the car can you imagine that loading the suringe and given yourself a shot in your tricept is your left arm as you were driving on the expressway. it became a problem for me whenever i would go out of town or on a cruise or anything that had metal detectors i was scared that i would set off the whole place with the needles. so i packed them in my luggage and gave myself a shop just befor we left.well one time wherever we were they lost my bags and i thought i was going to pull whatever hair out of my head that i have left and its not much, but four hours latter they found it.well now they have this pill that you can put under your tounge its wonderful no more problems just the taste-yuke- i told youall i was going to bable on but im sure that alot of you reading this will enjoy and relate so im expecting you all to start writing me on my thread about bup/suboxe with you experiance and just one more thing insuranc is now paying for the meds when they weren't for the bup which is saving me alot of money. ut while were on the money topic i laugh when someone asked me about the cost of this. how can you be paying all this money. weren't you spending all that money for your drugs before sure you were but you cant deferentiate the difference between drugs to get high on and drugs to give you a quality of life so you can carry on. im thinking now of what i can do to get off altoghter from these drugs that are sustaining me like going to a detox center but im alittle afraid and i really cant take off about a mount from work to do it.i would really like to feel what its like to feel normal again  i think i forgot but im afraid that its not so good or i wouldn't have started this way of life im in now

[bsills]

Some of you talk like there is absolutely no cognitive choice in the matter of Opiate addiction.  If you tell yourself that long enough and often enough, guess what?

How do you, personally, define "maintenance"?