5 YEAR OLD GIRL OUT OF CONTROL

[Becky20]

When my daughter was 4 she was referred to a child psychologist because I felt she had adhd.
Her 10 year old brother has a.d.h.d. and her 7 year old brother has a.d.d.
My father has bipolar, my grandfather was diagnosed as having split personality, my aunt suffered from  severe depression, and so to do I suffer with depression awaiting further assessment because
I felt I have bi polar because I have major up's and downs, with previouse self harming. They said my
daughter may grow out of it and left it at that, 1 year later I have had her re referred because
she is becoming worse on a daily basis, I have recorded footage of her screaming in the streets,
screaming in our house, kicking, scratching, she tried to strangle me, she has a beautiful side,
where she is so innocent and I am convinced she is not able to control these severe outbursts
she screams because her socks arnt right, every day, bobbles underneath or where
there's toe stitching, it can take forever to get her shoes on, she is sweet at school, but in every other situation she goes mad, she screams for hours at levels beyond comprehension, she screamed for hours because I put her blanket wrong, She is upsetting everyone, and her moods are becoming more and more severe, and aggressive I have been given phenergan to calm her down (doesnt help at all) and am due to see psychologist on the 19th of feb, but that date seems so distant, can you offer me any advice.  

[Becky20]

Hi there, it sounds like you'r daughter is a handful, I hope some of the past comments have offered you a bit of insight, it is down to you as the parent to express you'r concern if you feel that you'r daughters needs go beyond that of a normal 4 year old's, she certainly sound like she is controlling every situation, my best advice is to go to you'r doctor and let her know what is going on, I myself have used recording my daughters behaviour on my mobile phone and I took photo's of the bodily harm she caused to myself and my son, what i am saying is that if you truly believe there is a problem, you must persevere, I would get
the doctor to refer her to a psychiatrist, who can assess her, a.d.h.d. fits/outbursts only usually last for around half an hour, but bipolar outbursts go on for hours. Is there mental illness on either side in family history? I hope some of this is helpful.

[ut_finest08]

I think our daughters may b twins...lol. My 4 year old daughter does exactly the same thing. She will cry for hours if i dont fix her blanket when it comes off her feet. She cries if she is not the one to open the door.. She has the worst attitude when things don't go her way. But she is a angel in school. When her teacher came to the house she said that it was the first time she ever heard my daughter say shut up..! I told her that wasn't even the half of it. She'll even scream and cry if her and everyone else eating don't have the same kind of plates and silverware. She'll want everyone to have the same cups and for everyone to have the same amount. I am so serious she will scream for 2 hours if you sit there and ignore her. Sometimes i wanna lose my cool it's hard but i deal with cause i don't know what else to do. I don't believe in beatings anymore cause they haven't worked for me yet.

[Becky20]

Thanks very much for you'r post, I have bought a handful of books on child onset bipolar and have done loads of research, yes i must still get around to reading the bipolar child,
I appreciate the fact that i am able to understand what my children are going through, so that they dont have to suffer with themselves, we discuss everything, I encourage them to tell me what they are feeling, my son who is 10 often hears fearful voices and it is
comforting for me that he doesnt suffer alone. I am grateful i was able to understand
that they had "problems" and that I got them referred. My mother unfortunately for me
never got me assessed and i am glad now, to say that I survived and the reason I got
myself diagnosed is that I knew I needed to be strong for my kids.

[Becky20]

Phenergan is also used as a sedative. It can help to calm

[ames67]

My goodness you certainly have your hands full. Bravo to you for being such a caring mother and getting the help you need for all your children and yourself. Coming from one bipolar mom to another, your stability is key in you being able to handle the demands of children with behavioral issues. I am also a mental health professional and have studied bipolar in children for years. Your daughter does sound very bipolar and I would recommend you read The Bipolar Child by Papalos and Papalos. It can be very validating to understanding the full scope of behavior expressed by kiddos with bipolar and goes into some of the neuroanatomy as well as a great discussion on medications and interventions. You were right to seriously consider the family genetics, any good mental health professional should take that into consideration. Hope this helps, hang in there and remember to keep appreciating those beautiful moments with your kids.

[imanaddict]

I thought Phenergan was used for nausea?? How does this medication help your child?

[Becky20]

Sorry it's taken a while for me to post, I have now been diagnosed as having bi polar, and my 5 year old daughter has seen her psychiatrist now, bi polar has not been ruled out, her p.doc says it is not called bipolar for kids it is called something like emotional instability, cant remember the exact name she said, she said she would rather hold off giving my daughter meds untill she is 6, so long as she is semi stable, she is in a mixed state at the moment, rapid cycling, she will give her a mood stabalizer if she goes manic, for now we live day to day, her oldest brother is also now getting re assessed as previously diagnosed as having a.d.h.d. we now think he has bipolar. If there are any comments you would like to leave, I will gladly reply, I know there are alot of people who dont have experience with mental health issues and think they are made up, but I can assure you, bipolar disease is a very real mental health problem it destroys lives, I have lived with a father with bipolar, i grew up undiagnosed and nearly took my own life on several occasions, I now have children with the same disease and I will do my utmost as a mother to keep them safe, from themselves, and if that means medicating them, then that is what i shall do.

[Becky20]

Thanks very much for you'r knowledge, I am seeking out a psychiatrist that is familiar with bi polar, Thanks for the information on the med's that is sort of the last thing on my mind at the moment, first and formost is that my child gets a complete and thorough evaluation,. It goes without saying that a diagnosis will be welcome because then at least I will know exactly what we are dealing with, instead of guessing what we are dealing with, . I will keep updating and thank you.

[SL345]

Just remember that true Bipolar Disorder is relatively rare in young children, although it is surely the diagnosis de jour in the states. It is also difficult to diagnose in a young child. Make sure this person spends a good amount of time with your child. Consider psychological testing to be more thorough in making the diagnosis and ruling out other underlying conditions. This diagnosis will have great meaning for you in light of your family history. Try to move slowly, and carefully, as it sounds like you are doing. Although you may be absolutely correct, think about this in terms of what is most helpful. Many of the treatments (other than medication) for emotional and behavioral disorders in children cross diagnoses. That is, intervention is more often based on behavioral manifestations than underlying disorders (for the most part). Also, there is new research (Biederman et al in Boston) that shows children with Bipolar Disorder do NOT do well on mood stabilizers, such as Lithium and Tegretol, and tend to be much more responsive to low doses of medications such as Resperidone. Good luck to you and thanks for the update. Do let us know what happens next.

[Becky20]

Well I got to my appointment only to realise that the woman I was seeing was only a mental health worker, so basically I have delayed the diagnosis, by seeing people who are unable to diagnose my daughter, I am now having her re-referred to a psychiatrist able to diagnose bi polar and am pretty certain now that it is bi polar...... I will post more in the near future, and for all those who face the same uncertainty, persevere.

[Becky20]

It seems like you have travelled a long road, and are probably at the same stage as I am with my daughter,
I am not sure if my daughter is a.d.h.d. or bipolar, she definately has 2 sides to her and the difference is dramatic, is all I can say is persevere and record her behaviour as evidence, I cant say untill I have my daughter diagnosed wether they will diagnose bi polar, but I have pushed my appointment forward to this friday, so I will post on here what the outcome is.

[Joan959]

We do have mental illnesses in our family. The pediatrician said she doesn't have add or adhd.  The educational psychologist in school doesn't assess until she's in kindergarten which will be in September.  We have a normal family life, have lived in the same house for 3 years.  This behaviour seems to have started when she was about 2.  We've had her allergy tested and nothing came up except pollen, ragweed.  We've tried a Naturopath and followed a strict diet which I must admit did seem to help in her behaviour after a few months. BUT my Dr.'s say this isn't possible and it's so hard to feed us without wheat, eggs, dairy, sugar. So now we're just eating regularly again.

[Becky20]

I think that if you'r daughter is causing disruption in more than one place, such as school and home you have a right to get you'r daughter  referred to a child psychiatrist, how is you'r daughters attention, why would bi polar be suspected, have you history of bi polar in the family, Usually if the school is having problems they can have the educational psychologist assess the child and that can also help in a diagnosis towards a.d.h.d.  

[Becky20]

Thank you for the information you have supplied although it is not about the same thing IT IS ABOUT a mothers belief that something is not right, and her persistance to find the answer, well I applaud you'r friend for filming and having evidence, evidence like that cannot be disputed. thank you for you'r contribution.

[Becky20]

Thanks  for the information I will do some revision in the methods you suggest, actually after the psychiatrist would not bring my appointment closer when I have felt so desperate with her, I contacted the assistant general manager  and she has managed to bring my appointment forward to this FRIDAY, so hopefully I can post some information on the matter then.

[Joan959]

My just turned 5 year old daughter is out of control as well.  I am at a loss as to what to do. She has mood swings all day. Good moods last maybe an hour and then she's crabby, mean, swears. She constantly torments the dogs, her 8 year old brother and even his friends. I have to constantly watch her with the dogs and even her own friends. She'll be playing nice one minute and then all of a sudden she'll hit or push or say something mean.  It's like she's never happy.  I don't take her to play groups anymore but she does go to preschool twice per week.  She's starting to show this behavior at school so the teachers say they have to keep a close eye on her too.  She's very whiney with me and Dad and seems to make life miserable for us all. We've taken her to a pediatrician who says she's probably Oppositional Defiant Disorder but she's too young to be diagnosed with a mood disorder such as Bipolar. Does this sound familiar to you with your own daughter?

[raebc]

Hi,

I don't have any experience with your situation, but wanted to wish you the best in finding help for your daughter. I think filming her behavior is a brilliant idea, so that doctors and other diagnosticians can see for themselves the magnitude of her behavior.  A close friend was having sleep issues with her toddler and knew in her heart it was something more than a testy toddler. After getting nowhere with his pediatrician, she filmed him at night during one of his sleep episodes. Once the doctor viewed the tape, he finally took her seriously after months and months of telling everyone that would listen that something was seriously wrong. She had been told that she needed to be more firm and more disciplined and not give in into his numerous wakings - after viewing the tape though, he was prescribed a sleep study and was found to have severe sleep apnea - waking 40-60 times per hour. He was also whiny, clingy and cranky....another area where doctors told her to be consistent and firm. Guess what? When you wake up 40-60 times per hour, it puts you in a very foul mood! He is now getting the help he needs and is a different child.

Long story short - keep doing what you're doing and you will find an answer. A mother knows. Best of luck. (hugs)

[SL345]

Sorry to hear of your most recent upset. There's generally little that one can do when a child, or any person, has lost control. The trick, if you will, is catching them before it gets to that point. Certainly easier said than done. With sensory integration, a "sensory diet" is recommended, which means using the interventions on a daily basis when the child is calm and in control. Like stress management, it rarely works when someone is highly agitated if they haven't been using it daily for weeks at a time beforehand. Good luck. Please let us know what you find out on the 19th

[Becky20]

Thank you for you'r insight as I already believe in trying to calm her instead of scolding her some of the strategies you have offered could well be used in the times of her outrage, it is just hard to get close to her when you want to comfort and all she does is scratch and kick and punch. Tonight she tried to strangle her 7 year old brother, she went totally wild again, at least the 19th is slowly creeping closer, like you say too there may be co-morbidities alongside a.d.h.d. that is why I have been so determined to film her, the change in her is so totally drastic, from loving and sweet and kind and considerate to hateing and wanting to kill people, I'm a little devastated right now, but I will continue to reply and thank you for all the comments.

[SL345]

One area that you might want to explore (if you haven't already) is sensory integration sensitivity. There are a lot of relatively non-invasive strategies that seem odd, but help soothe many reactive children (e.g., sensitivity to certain fabrics, to tags in shirts, stitching in the bottom of socks, etc.). Some kids respond to brushing protocols, joint compressions, applied pressure and other non-traditional strategies. There is no clear scientific support for this approach, but if it helps your kid that's all that matters in the end.  Also, many children who qualify for a diagnosis of ADHD may also show signs and symptoms of other co-occurring conditions, such as oppositional-defiant traits and mood dysregulation. At this age, we are better able to behaviorally describe what we see than we are able to understand underlying neurobiological processes that may be causative. You are to be commended for trying to understand this in all its complexity. I agree that recording the behavior for professionals to be able to view and trying to weigh risk factors for genetic loading are positive and important approaches. Good luck!

[Becky20]

Again thank you for a more positive reply, nothing has happened to have made her change, everything is exactly the same, same school, same house, same people,
actually the last few days have been great with my daughter because she has brought us love and laughter, this is the side of her that we long for and  seldom see, and we are cherishing her good nature at the moment, actually I'm extremely glad I did film her
because the difference is astonishing, if you met her now you would not believe the footage I have of her is the same child, but alas, the volcano is still active and could erupt without the slightest indication that there is a change going on. I give her love and protection whether she is "good" or "bad" because she is in turmoil with crazy emotions that she has no control over, I know my little girl with shine again once the storms have calmed.

[Becky20]

Thank you for you'r reply sometimes a listening ear can offer a lot of hope, so
thank you for the "don't give up" I never will.

[Becky20]

What on earth are you talking about girl, when you state something like this  "I don't treat my children like they are going to get everything my family members have contracted"

A.d.h.d. and Bi polar are not contagious dah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
they can be heredetary though and because of the history in my family it is highly likely that my daughter has a similar condition...............................................

[Becky20]

First off I would like to say thank you to everyone for taking the time to communicate, we can all learn a little from each other.
1 point is my daughter is 5 now not 4 she is beyond the naughty 2's naughty 3's naughty 4's. her school has not had much trouble with her yet, but her teacher has noticed certain behaviour, such as blameing others for her mistakes, restlessness, excessive talking, intruding on others, argueing with adults, losing her temper, easily annoyed by others, angry and resentful, spiteful and vindictive, she has marked all
of these off on an adhd assessment paper, my daughter does not only lose control at home, it's in the street's, the shop's, anywhere really.