Here you go again. What you need for perspective is to go study the Greek and Roman philosophers. Throw in the Indian and Chinese. Read some Hegel. Almost no philosophy emphasizes pleasure other than hedonism. Duty? Sure. Accomplishment? You'll find it. Helping others? There are so many ways to feel good about yourself that don't immediately deliver pleasure, but it you're a hedonist, then go seek pleasure. Depression is an illness, and I don't know how to cure it, but it can't happen if you lock your thinking in so tightly that you eliminate most of the philosophy the world has come up with. There are ideas out there other than your own. Open up some.
If you are the type of person to derive positive value from struggles, then what you say here does hold true for these types of people. But if you are like me who utterly detests struggles and finds no positive value from them and wants nothing to do with them, then this doesn't hold true for me or anyone else like me. Again, I do not mind struggles themselves. The only struggle I do mind is depression (so this is what we are talking about when I mean struggles). The ideal truth would be that feelings of pleasure (including love and many others) are the greatest gifts to you and absolutely no one or nothing can take these away from you. How do you feel about that? I bet you are feeling right now that this is the absolute truth of life and that this is the main thing that makes us as human beings.
But what if I told you right now that there is, in fact, something that can take these things away from you? And that would obviously be depression. So how do you feel now? I bet you feel enraged that such an inferior abomination exists. I bet now you utterly detest depression and that there is no positive value whatsoever you can deem from it.
It wouldn't make sense anyway to derive pleasure (positive value) from something that takes away your pleasure. Also, if you somehow think that depression and struggles in life give your life greater positive value, I feel that this would be false because you can have much more positive value through having a life of no struggles and depression. For example, if depression is something you think has given your life positive value because of the fact that you are socializing and sharing your feelings with those who also have depression (or any other positive value of such), the fact of the matter is that you can socialize and share your feelings in healthier ways without struggles or depression in life and this would have greater positive value because with depression, you have both a negative and a positive going on. You have depression (which is obviously negative) and you have socializing and sharing your feelings with others which is positive. But without depression, then you would have 2 positives. You would feel happy with no depression (this is the 1st positive) and you would socialize and share your feelings with others (which is the 2nd positive). This is why having no depression in life has greater positive value (obviously because two positive values in life are greater than just one positive value). So basically, gaining positive value through struggles and depression in life is pointless when you could have gained positive value through something much better (a life of no struggles and no depression).
Like I've told you countless times before, your mind is your own worst enemy. You get "stuck" on an idea and that's it for you....you close your mind to ANY other ideas.
You're more than entitled to the way you feel, but you're selling yourself (and life) short. For one, you're a young man. Who's to say you will be depressed forever? It's actually more likely that you WON'T be, but you've decided you will be. Depression is a chronic condition with ups and downs. It's not helpless, or hopeless. YOU have made it that way in your mind though, and until you're willing to open your mind, and stop taking options away, you probably WILL remain depressed.
We've given you so much advice as to ways you can treat and manage your depression, but your own hang ups have held you back, sadly.
Life without pleasure? There's still a myriad of other emotions, instinct and of course one's ability to think. Pleasure can be gained from many things and is not restricted to it's baser, instinctual versions. You may find pleasure as others do in helping the needy, healing the sick, overcoming personal challenges or simply having someone you care about in life. What you refer to as pleasure, I would call the things that make people happy.
Your arguments are full of logical holes as I imagine you have not tried developing them through discussion or debate. Do talk to your friends and family about your beliefs, and if they are unwilling to listen, pay someone to. A good therapist with a background in philosophy, maybe. Keep an open mind as your arguments should stand on their own merit and not from your hesitation to listen.
Depression is a state of mind where everything seems hopeless and futile. As much as these things make sense to you now in your depressed state, you owe it to yourself to test the truth of these theories when you are not depressed.
Medication can help resolve the brain imbalance caused by genetic or environmental factors but unless you are one of the lucky ones, there is a bit of trial and error involved. Some medications won't work for you while others will and each takes about 2 months to verify. You must make a decision that you are willing to persevere through this route. If you've already made up your mind not to, you're only setting yourself up for failure.
And the dead are superior to nothing or no one. Whatever notions of superiority you hold now will mean nothing at the moment of your demise where your thoughts, feelings, beliefs will all cease to be. You wouldn't be overcoming anything- you would only be saying "screw you i'm not playing anymore!"
I read your post intently. Have you had a psychological completed? I am almost certain you are NOT just dealing with clinical depression and anxiety. In my opinion, you must make an appointment with a licensed psychologist to have an in depth psychological evaluation.
Please make an appointment even if you feel like you do not need to. Let me rephrase that, ESPECIALLY because you feel like you do not need to. I’m pretty certain you are in a place that makes it impossible for me or anyone else to reason with you.
Please have someone close to you that you trust like a family member or a friend read your posts on this website and allow them to help you.
Yes, depression really bites. It's an awful state. I'm sorry we're both in it, and I wish I could tell you how to cure it, but I don't know how to do that. I only know that depression has never been as bad to me as anxiety, meaning, there's always something worse out there in life but the corollary is also true, there's always the possibility of something better. I agree your life would be better without depression, as would mine. So I think we're getting to the crux of what 's really going on with you, which is what we're all trying to tell you -- you have an illness, but you're trying to reason from this illness to life. You wouldn't do that if you had a broken arm, which is also a struggle. Or cancer, which is a bigger struggle. They are illnesses you would accept as such and not believe some philosophical truth had given them to you or taken something from you. As to struggle, sorry, everything worth having comes from struggle for most people, even those without depression. Without struggle there is no growth, you never get better at anything, you can't develop understanding. I'm sure you've seen politicians that seem so certain of themselves because they don't struggle with their thinking -- would you really like to be like them? What we're all saying to you is, you're ill, you need to get better, you're young so you probably will, but philosophy has nothing to do with it. You have a broken arm in an era that doesn't know exactly how to fix it for you, but there are a lot of ideas and a lot of people you can pay to help you find one that might work. You know you're just playing word games here when you're really crying out for help. I get it, I'm there, I hate it too. We all do. Seek help, and maybe you'll find some.
Yes, I would want to be like these politicians you speak of in your post here. Also, I appreciate your advice here and see where you are getting at, but I just still have to disagree with some things here. For example, someone who has the worst possible suffering, your reasoning here does not apply because all this person would want is an escape from such a horrible experience and that any such positive values such as growth or anything else does not apply here.
I am accepting of the help and advice of others here and appreciate them trying to help. The reason we have this forum in the first place is to discuss how we feel. Since this is how I feel about my depression (obviously, I feel many things about it that already refute what others are saying here), then this is why I am discussing my debating points of view. I am hoping that someone can convince me that I am wrong which would make me feel better because if I am convinced, then I will view suffering, intellect, etc. to have greater value than pleasure and other things of this sort. But so far, based on my arguments here, this has not happened. And until that happens, I will continue to feel hate towards having struggles and depression in life and that the only thing that matters is being a "higher" being who is superior to those things (by being happy and not having to deal with these things). I only care for the status of my pleasure in this specific situation. Therefore, if I were to fully recover from my depression right now, that would give me a sense of empowerment and superiority above life's struggles (depression in this case) and would give me the status of a "higher" being (again, not comparing myself to others when saying that--I am only just referring to myself when saying this).
But until then, I have not yet achieved this "god-like" status and am just an inferior human being bound by life's struggles of depression and such. To me, pleasure is a "god-like" life force that makes you superior. Therefore, since I have chronic depression now, I have lost my "god-like" powers and I will wait patiently for them to fully return. If they do fully return, then I would now be able to channel this power into making music and make great music (as this is the "power" that makes me a good composer) as I obviously find that channeling pleasure into making music creates far better songs than intelligence or experimentation alone and that the greater the pleasure, the better and more catchy and such the songs are. I experience empowering mystical god-like feelings of pleasure through music and such (through witnessing things or hearing music that is of a mystical god-like nature) which is obviously why I conclude here that pleasure is this mystical god-like force for me that makes me a mystical god-like being in a sense and that to lose that through depression would indeed make me a lesser being.
But as for channeling negative emotions into making music, this is not who I am and that would only serve to make me feel even more depressed.
when you are depressed it is hard to see the forest through the trees. clinical depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain. there is treatment for it. until you seek that treatment you will forever be stuck in your self loathing.
pleasure is derived from many simple things, most of all from doing something for others without expectations of getting anything from doing it.
again, you will never see that if you don't seek treatment for depression
How would you ever assess your happiness and pleasure if you didn't have something negative to compare it to? Look at people who battle through cancer, or parents who have to watch their child suffer and maybe even die from an illness. That would be just about the worst possible imaginable loss. Would you say that there would be no way for those people to ever find pleasure or happiness? Life is by FAR not black and white like you're trying to make it. Most of life is probably lived in the gray area...for most people anyway.
Some of the best writers, poets, composers.....indeed used their own struggles, grief and strife as fodder for their amazing works. You certainly cannot deny that. I found this while googling....I think it would be a good read for you:
This one is even better:
I just think you're not trying to see the arguments presented to you. You're "stuck" in your thought process, which you have a LONG history of doing with other topics. If you hold on so tightly to those beliefs and ideals...you won't ever be flexible enough to TRY to see another point of view.
Someone mentioned OCD, and it's kind of a valid argument. Has any doctor/practitioner ever mentioned OCD to you? You become very obsessed with one train of thought, to your detriment. You're trying to apply logic to the illogical, and trying to make things that are illogical, logical, which leaves you chasing your tail.
Do you have any plans to try to see a professional about the way you feel?
Oops, the one link got censored. You can probably google it and find it from the info there. It's really a good article...I'd encourage you to read it.
I like you, strongly was intent on committing suicide if my depression would not end. It was the most severe pain that I have ever had and I've had severe migraines caused by a major stroke and trigeminal neuralgia which feels like electric shocks going through my mouth. But nothing was as bad as my severe depression.
But unlike you, I was committed to trying everything BEFORE I would commit suicide. I don't hear anything about your attempts at this. Have you tried many antidepressants including an MAO Inhibitor? Have you tried light therapy? Have you tried psychotherapy? I am now completely out of my depression in spite of having a lot of physical pain and a very limited life.
I need to see your efforts at getting better instead of all your negativity which is understandable, but not productive. Good luck to you.