Aa
Universal Healtcare is a must.
I have always, even before discovering that I had MS, wondered why we in the US do not have universal health care. Why are some people excluded?
I am knowledgeable of how business and politics works in our country. But, it is time we rise above the corporate shackles and fear mongering associated with it.
I know there are many who frequent the forums with diverse political ideas. This aside I would ask others to send emails, write letters to congressmen, letters to the editor on the need for universal health care.
There are way too many stories on these boards of folks not receiving the proper healthcare. I know if I were to be without insurance for a couple of months I would be financially sunk. The likelihood of such a thing happening in this current economy is quite a good possibility.
Universal healthcare works in Canada, England, France, and other places. There are mountains to climb in the US in starting this endeavor for our country. But, it is wholly unforgivable to allow our current system to continue.
I am knowledgeable of how business and politics works in our country. But, it is time we rise above the corporate shackles and fear mongering associated with it.
I know there are many who frequent the forums with diverse political ideas. This aside I would ask others to send emails, write letters to congressmen, letters to the editor on the need for universal health care.
There are way too many stories on these boards of folks not receiving the proper healthcare. I know if I were to be without insurance for a couple of months I would be financially sunk. The likelihood of such a thing happening in this current economy is quite a good possibility.
Universal healthcare works in Canada, England, France, and other places. There are mountains to climb in the US in starting this endeavor for our country. But, it is wholly unforgivable to allow our current system to continue.
wow!!!...i have allways said the same thing...if the other countries can do it why cant we?...i had a dr. that would charge me to get refills and get results from tests..i couldnt believe it he wouldnt do either unless i made a appointment...and that was 70 out of my pocket every time ....so now i go to health dept...cant get pain meds thru them so im going it without ..not a pretty picture..lol oh well i hope all is well with you...are you still having a energy burst?...take care ....deb
YES, YES, YES!!!!
The most dangerous thing to a government is a VOTING citizenry and if all of the citizens of this country would use their votes, things WOULD change.
We all need to be more cognizant of what our forefathers went through to give us the freedoms we enjoy. Do not feel that one vote does not make a difference. IT DOES!!!!
This election year has me hopeful for change. Granted, one election is not going to make a huge difference but we can move in the right direction...the right to vote wasn’t won over one battle.
Yes, our political system is flawed. Yes, politicians do have their own agenda. Yes, it takes a long time for change. But whose fault is that???? We are the ones who vote for those whom we criticize. We are the ones who need to fix it. We have the right and the responsibility to act!
On healthcare, so many argue that if we had universal health care we would have to wait for appointments. Don’t we do that now?????? How many of us even know what House Resolution 676 is??? And how many times it has "died?"
If doctors had to base their income on patient care and their health, doesn’t it seem reasonable that we would get better care??? Maybe we would get more action than puzzled looks.
How many people here on this forum have had to go without healthcare because they do not meet the criteria for aid? Being ill should be criteria enough!!!
Well, that’s my rant for today. Thank goodness I have low blood pressure or I'd be in trouble!
Wanna
The most dangerous thing to a government is a VOTING citizenry and if all of the citizens of this country would use their votes, things WOULD change.
We all need to be more cognizant of what our forefathers went through to give us the freedoms we enjoy. Do not feel that one vote does not make a difference. IT DOES!!!!
This election year has me hopeful for change. Granted, one election is not going to make a huge difference but we can move in the right direction...the right to vote wasn’t won over one battle.
Yes, our political system is flawed. Yes, politicians do have their own agenda. Yes, it takes a long time for change. But whose fault is that???? We are the ones who vote for those whom we criticize. We are the ones who need to fix it. We have the right and the responsibility to act!
On healthcare, so many argue that if we had universal health care we would have to wait for appointments. Don’t we do that now?????? How many of us even know what House Resolution 676 is??? And how many times it has "died?"
If doctors had to base their income on patient care and their health, doesn’t it seem reasonable that we would get better care??? Maybe we would get more action than puzzled looks.
How many people here on this forum have had to go without healthcare because they do not meet the criteria for aid? Being ill should be criteria enough!!!
Well, that’s my rant for today. Thank goodness I have low blood pressure or I'd be in trouble!
Wanna
Theoretically it sounds wonderful, doesn't it?
I hope Samantha pipes in here to say what she thinks of the National Health she has in England. I think practically, a government mandated health program takes away the competitiveness in health care providers. If you're going to get patients no matter if you're great at what you do or not, why try to be the best doctor you can be?
My husband had a small business many years ago, and when Hillary was pushing for healthcare for everyone, we were scared. Providing healthcare for our employees would have put us out of business. These were restaurant workers whose spouses carried the insurance for their families. They didn't need the insurance, so the job was a good fit for them. If we had been forced to pay for insurance plans, we'd have lost our businesses.
I agree that we have to have a better solution, but it's very complex. I'm just not smart enough to know what the answer could be.....
Zilla*
I hope Samantha pipes in here to say what she thinks of the National Health she has in England. I think practically, a government mandated health program takes away the competitiveness in health care providers. If you're going to get patients no matter if you're great at what you do or not, why try to be the best doctor you can be?
My husband had a small business many years ago, and when Hillary was pushing for healthcare for everyone, we were scared. Providing healthcare for our employees would have put us out of business. These were restaurant workers whose spouses carried the insurance for their families. They didn't need the insurance, so the job was a good fit for them. If we had been forced to pay for insurance plans, we'd have lost our businesses.
I agree that we have to have a better solution, but it's very complex. I'm just not smart enough to know what the answer could be.....
Zilla*
You are right Zilla, we need it but cannot go backward in the quality of care. My big issue is RX coverage for our SENIORS!!!! They need their stinkin' meds, and some are choosing to either heat their home, buy food, or take their meds. Ok, I'm done. Amy
Universal health care is not the solution to the health care crisis.
For one thing, health care is accessible to you if you lose your job. States have Medicaid. People on social secrity disability have Medicare.
States need to come up with their own plans to provide access to care. For example, Pennsylvania has access to health care for all children through CHIP. Any child is allowed into the system. For those in higher income brackets you may have to pay some of the cost, but it is much less than private insurance.
The same goes for Delaware. No one is denied care. In fact, illegal immigrants get MRI's free of charge, surgery free of charge etc. They pay nothing.
Universal health care already exists for them.
Besides, if you look at some of the health plans offered by Clinton, you would be almost forced to immunize your children at the government recommendations, you may be forced to get mercury laden flu vaccines etc. You would not be in charge of your care, the government would.
Remember Rena meeting an opthamologist in the ER? Well, doctors would have no incentive to stay in the health care system. Salaries would be cut, no incentives for really good doctors, and they would leave and go into the business end of health care.
And what about the people on the forum in limbo? In universal health care, you would not be allowed unlimited opinions from other specialists. If you go to a bad neuro the first time, too bad.,
And if you think that you wait a long time for an appt with specialists or tests now, think about what would happen if all 300 million people in this country had access to the same number of diagnostic machines that now exist. Your wait will be greatly extended. It would be inevitable,
In my opinion, universal health care would just be another bureaucratic government nightmare eating up tax dollars. Look at how inefficient Medicare is and all the fraud. Why would universal health care be any different?
Sorry, but government run health care proposals get me really annoyed and frightened.
Elaine
For one thing, health care is accessible to you if you lose your job. States have Medicaid. People on social secrity disability have Medicare.
States need to come up with their own plans to provide access to care. For example, Pennsylvania has access to health care for all children through CHIP. Any child is allowed into the system. For those in higher income brackets you may have to pay some of the cost, but it is much less than private insurance.
The same goes for Delaware. No one is denied care. In fact, illegal immigrants get MRI's free of charge, surgery free of charge etc. They pay nothing.
Universal health care already exists for them.
Besides, if you look at some of the health plans offered by Clinton, you would be almost forced to immunize your children at the government recommendations, you may be forced to get mercury laden flu vaccines etc. You would not be in charge of your care, the government would.
Remember Rena meeting an opthamologist in the ER? Well, doctors would have no incentive to stay in the health care system. Salaries would be cut, no incentives for really good doctors, and they would leave and go into the business end of health care.
And what about the people on the forum in limbo? In universal health care, you would not be allowed unlimited opinions from other specialists. If you go to a bad neuro the first time, too bad.,
And if you think that you wait a long time for an appt with specialists or tests now, think about what would happen if all 300 million people in this country had access to the same number of diagnostic machines that now exist. Your wait will be greatly extended. It would be inevitable,
In my opinion, universal health care would just be another bureaucratic government nightmare eating up tax dollars. Look at how inefficient Medicare is and all the fraud. Why would universal health care be any different?
Sorry, but government run health care proposals get me really annoyed and frightened.
Elaine
Amy's right. We have more seniors now than ever before. There have to be programs for them, but I think it makes more sense for the pharmaceuticals companies to give these deserving people a break, rather than get the government involved.
And I'm a Democrat, belive it or not!
Zilla*
And I'm a Democrat, belive it or not!
Zilla*
There is just no good answer to this. Of course we want health care for everyone, and to have it affordable. No one should suffer because of lack of ability to pay. I think it's a human right.
At the same time, the systems in place in many other countries have huge problems. We hear from members in Canada, Australia and the UK that they have long waits, few choices and many frustrations. These places have private providers too, who serve only those who can pay full freight and get more elite services. At this point I'm glad to be able to choose who gives me health care, and where. But we all wind up paying anyway, since those without resources go to ERs and other services which must provide care, regardless of means. That's why the amounts our insurance is charged are so huge. Somebody has to pay. I doubt if America will have an answer for this anytime soom, no matter who gets elected.
ess
At the same time, the systems in place in many other countries have huge problems. We hear from members in Canada, Australia and the UK that they have long waits, few choices and many frustrations. These places have private providers too, who serve only those who can pay full freight and get more elite services. At this point I'm glad to be able to choose who gives me health care, and where. But we all wind up paying anyway, since those without resources go to ERs and other services which must provide care, regardless of means. That's why the amounts our insurance is charged are so huge. Somebody has to pay. I doubt if America will have an answer for this anytime soom, no matter who gets elected.
ess
Don't forget about Medicare Part-D. It was passed a few years ago and covers prescriptions for seniors who sign up for it.
This is an extremely complicated problem. When all the baby-boomers retire and are on medicare, we will see how it is for a large segment of our population to be on "government healthcare". I expect for the tax rate to soar. Will people be willing to work for only 50% of what they actually earn??
I guess what bothers me the most is how the insurance companies can decide not to cover pre-existing conditions. They pretty much operate on a win-win situation. I had thought that it just happened with individual policies, but they are starting that with our insurance?? Since I have had all these tests run, they doubled our copays w/specialists and prescriptions in the middle of the sign up year. They also decided they didn't want to pay for my last MRI and that is going to cost over $2000.
I think that everyone should be able to get insurance that needs it. They really just want to insure healthy people. I also don't think someone should have to go bankrupt because they are really ill.
No Easy Answers!!
Stacey
This is an extremely complicated problem. When all the baby-boomers retire and are on medicare, we will see how it is for a large segment of our population to be on "government healthcare". I expect for the tax rate to soar. Will people be willing to work for only 50% of what they actually earn??
I guess what bothers me the most is how the insurance companies can decide not to cover pre-existing conditions. They pretty much operate on a win-win situation. I had thought that it just happened with individual policies, but they are starting that with our insurance?? Since I have had all these tests run, they doubled our copays w/specialists and prescriptions in the middle of the sign up year. They also decided they didn't want to pay for my last MRI and that is going to cost over $2000.
I think that everyone should be able to get insurance that needs it. They really just want to insure healthy people. I also don't think someone should have to go bankrupt because they are really ill.
No Easy Answers!!
Stacey
As a Canadian, I just wanted to pipe in here.
As much as I LOVE my Universal Healthcare, I would like to point out that indeed it has it's downfalls. There are incompetent doctors within our healthcare system too. 2.5 years I've been looking for an answer, and still don't have one. That's not soley because of incompetency, but that has played a factor. As a matter of fact, it took me 4 family doctors to actually be listened to.
We need referrals to specialists, which involves a wait time. I got lucky this time. I chose (not an option for every province to get to choose their specialist) a neurologist who is new to the province, but has done extensive work with the MS Clinics back in my home province. Her patient list here is small, so my wait to see her was only a month. If she determines that my MRI isn't sufficient due to lack of gad, or that it should have been booked on the 1.5Tesla, rather than the 1.0 Tesla, or that she wants spinal images as well, then I'll probably be looking at a relatively long wait. It could be as long as 5 months to get a full head, c-spine and t-spine MRI with and without contrast. I know that best case scenerio, and I mean BEST case, I'll likely be looking at at LEAST 6 months before I can even think about the reality of a diagnosis, likely much longer.
I'm NOT trying to downtalk the Universal Healthcare system at all. I love the security in knowing that I never have to worry about co-pays or if I qualify for insurance, but I wanted to put my 2 cents in. It needs work. If the US chooses to adopt a Universal Healthcare Policy, I hope they find a way to do it which will minimize wait times. I believe Universal Healthcare is the best way to go, I would just like to see my neighbours to the south do it in a way that works better than ours does.
Christine
(un-dx)
As much as I LOVE my Universal Healthcare, I would like to point out that indeed it has it's downfalls. There are incompetent doctors within our healthcare system too. 2.5 years I've been looking for an answer, and still don't have one. That's not soley because of incompetency, but that has played a factor. As a matter of fact, it took me 4 family doctors to actually be listened to.
We need referrals to specialists, which involves a wait time. I got lucky this time. I chose (not an option for every province to get to choose their specialist) a neurologist who is new to the province, but has done extensive work with the MS Clinics back in my home province. Her patient list here is small, so my wait to see her was only a month. If she determines that my MRI isn't sufficient due to lack of gad, or that it should have been booked on the 1.5Tesla, rather than the 1.0 Tesla, or that she wants spinal images as well, then I'll probably be looking at a relatively long wait. It could be as long as 5 months to get a full head, c-spine and t-spine MRI with and without contrast. I know that best case scenerio, and I mean BEST case, I'll likely be looking at at LEAST 6 months before I can even think about the reality of a diagnosis, likely much longer.
I'm NOT trying to downtalk the Universal Healthcare system at all. I love the security in knowing that I never have to worry about co-pays or if I qualify for insurance, but I wanted to put my 2 cents in. It needs work. If the US chooses to adopt a Universal Healthcare Policy, I hope they find a way to do it which will minimize wait times. I believe Universal Healthcare is the best way to go, I would just like to see my neighbours to the south do it in a way that works better than ours does.
Christine
(un-dx)
Like Christine, I value universal health care in Canada, and also agree there are flaws. No system is without flaws. My experience in terms of diagnosis, treatment, wait times, etc. in this country has been a positive one.
After a weekend of suspicious symptoms, I called my family doctor and got an appt. the SAME day. The NEXT DAY I had labs done. FOUR DAYS later they were back, normal. Back to my doctor, she referred me for a MRI. I had it done ONE WEEK later. Results back in FIVE DAYS. Abnormal. Went right back to my doctor, she referred me to an on-call neuro, out of town (none where I live). Had an appt in ONE WEEK. Immediately he could see something was wrong; he immediately ordered an lp; had it done the SAME DAY; was referred to another on-call neuro taking over from the first guy. Lp results back in less than 24 HOURS. Had ‘unofficial’ dx of MS (aka “demyelinating disease”), FIVE WEEKS after onset of symptoms. Immediately treated with 5 day infusion of steroids. ONE WEEK later, I was in with an ophthalmologist due to my double vision. I saw an MS specialist at a major MS clinic FIVE WEEKS after being referred (I was told this was considered a ‘longer’ wait because the guy was one of the best).
Keep in mind there is no money changing hands while all of this is going on. My Alberta Health Card is all they need (for which I pay nominal premiums. In most provinces, there are NO such premiums). Bear in mind, health care in Canada is not ‘free.’ I pay my taxes and don’t resent this at all based on what I get back. I also don't resent those who pay less taxes than me, or none at all, and have access to the same care.
I am certainly 'lucky' in regards to my clear cut case of MS. I did have minor symptoms over a year previously that were checked out promptly, and by the time I had my MRI’s (one normal, one mildly 'suspicious' but no lesions back then), my symptoms disappeared. For a while after my dx, I did second-guess why more wasn't done the year before, but the reality is that I had no lesions, I felt very healthy, my minor symptoms were transient, and it was apparently too early in the disease for it to be detected. I did not get sick until more than a year later; and the timeframe from the first appearance of my major symptoms to my appt with the MS specialist was TEN WEEKS, with all of the above diagnostics and treatment happening in between.
Upon diagnosis, I was given a CHOICE regarding which neuro I wanted; I had been seen by FOUR different ones in total throughout this experience; or, I could pick anyone else practicing in that area. I settled on the guy at the MS clinic for reasons obvious to anyone here.
The icing on the cake is that with a small monthly premium for supplemental drug coverage insurance (available to all Alberta citizens with no exclusions for ‘pre-existing conditions’), combined with my employer health plan, my MS meds are TOTALLY COVERED. Even without an employer health plan, the most one would have to pay in Alberta is $25 per month for MS meds (with the supplemental coverage in place).
I continue to see my GP on a regular basis and she is fantastic. She has personally called me at home on numerous occasions to talk about test results, next steps, etc. Between she and my MS doctor, I am getting excellent medical care at very little cost to me (nominal insurance premiums). Why are these doctors so good and yet don’t have to 'compete' nor get particular 'incentives'? I don’t know the answer to that, they just are.
Having read the stories of my US counterparts, I’m not sure even with insurance that I would have been treated as quickly or as well as I was here in Canada.
Obviously no system is perfect, but there must be a better way than the current American experience. I have no idea what the solution for the US may be. What works for Canada may not work for the US. I for one am very grateful for the system available to me, and appreciate the underlying values and principles on which it is based.
Please excuse the caps --- I just really wanted to emphasize those points around timeframes, as I thought this was important to convey.
db1
ps to Christine - regarding your expected wait for another MRI, my advice is to call, call, call, and make friends with the clinic receptionist. There are often cancellations and chances are you will get in sooner by being proactive. This works for me every time.
After a weekend of suspicious symptoms, I called my family doctor and got an appt. the SAME day. The NEXT DAY I had labs done. FOUR DAYS later they were back, normal. Back to my doctor, she referred me for a MRI. I had it done ONE WEEK later. Results back in FIVE DAYS. Abnormal. Went right back to my doctor, she referred me to an on-call neuro, out of town (none where I live). Had an appt in ONE WEEK. Immediately he could see something was wrong; he immediately ordered an lp; had it done the SAME DAY; was referred to another on-call neuro taking over from the first guy. Lp results back in less than 24 HOURS. Had ‘unofficial’ dx of MS (aka “demyelinating disease”), FIVE WEEKS after onset of symptoms. Immediately treated with 5 day infusion of steroids. ONE WEEK later, I was in with an ophthalmologist due to my double vision. I saw an MS specialist at a major MS clinic FIVE WEEKS after being referred (I was told this was considered a ‘longer’ wait because the guy was one of the best).
Keep in mind there is no money changing hands while all of this is going on. My Alberta Health Card is all they need (for which I pay nominal premiums. In most provinces, there are NO such premiums). Bear in mind, health care in Canada is not ‘free.’ I pay my taxes and don’t resent this at all based on what I get back. I also don't resent those who pay less taxes than me, or none at all, and have access to the same care.
I am certainly 'lucky' in regards to my clear cut case of MS. I did have minor symptoms over a year previously that were checked out promptly, and by the time I had my MRI’s (one normal, one mildly 'suspicious' but no lesions back then), my symptoms disappeared. For a while after my dx, I did second-guess why more wasn't done the year before, but the reality is that I had no lesions, I felt very healthy, my minor symptoms were transient, and it was apparently too early in the disease for it to be detected. I did not get sick until more than a year later; and the timeframe from the first appearance of my major symptoms to my appt with the MS specialist was TEN WEEKS, with all of the above diagnostics and treatment happening in between.
Upon diagnosis, I was given a CHOICE regarding which neuro I wanted; I had been seen by FOUR different ones in total throughout this experience; or, I could pick anyone else practicing in that area. I settled on the guy at the MS clinic for reasons obvious to anyone here.
The icing on the cake is that with a small monthly premium for supplemental drug coverage insurance (available to all Alberta citizens with no exclusions for ‘pre-existing conditions’), combined with my employer health plan, my MS meds are TOTALLY COVERED. Even without an employer health plan, the most one would have to pay in Alberta is $25 per month for MS meds (with the supplemental coverage in place).
I continue to see my GP on a regular basis and she is fantastic. She has personally called me at home on numerous occasions to talk about test results, next steps, etc. Between she and my MS doctor, I am getting excellent medical care at very little cost to me (nominal insurance premiums). Why are these doctors so good and yet don’t have to 'compete' nor get particular 'incentives'? I don’t know the answer to that, they just are.
Having read the stories of my US counterparts, I’m not sure even with insurance that I would have been treated as quickly or as well as I was here in Canada.
Obviously no system is perfect, but there must be a better way than the current American experience. I have no idea what the solution for the US may be. What works for Canada may not work for the US. I for one am very grateful for the system available to me, and appreciate the underlying values and principles on which it is based.
Please excuse the caps --- I just really wanted to emphasize those points around timeframes, as I thought this was important to convey.
db1
ps to Christine - regarding your expected wait for another MRI, my advice is to call, call, call, and make friends with the clinic receptionist. There are often cancellations and chances are you will get in sooner by being proactive. This works for me every time.
db1 actually that's how I got my last MRI in a month, rather than 2 months (it was just brain and c-spine without contrast). I was supposed to be in Saskatoon (no MRI machines where I live either, and S'toon in 1.5 hours away) on a particular day and called the MRI center as soon as I got my appointment date and asked if they happened to have a cancellation could they let me know, they told me then and there they had a cancellation for that day, and boom, 2 birds with 1 stone.
Again, I digress, in my personal opinion, as a chronically ill person living in Canada, I do love my Universal Coverage, and the freedom to seek medical care, at will, and without cost.
I also love that there's never a wait to see if a procedure will be approved. With the exception of elective surgery, it's all covered, all the time. As soon as a doctor requests it, you know it's just a matter of waiting for the appointment.
Some provinces ask for premiums, but those are typically nullified for lower income families. Saskatchewan has no monthly premiums.
I just wish there was a way to speed up the process (not just for me, but for everyone who is stuck waiting for testing).
I'm so pleased DB1 that your experience in diagnosis was so good, and so quick. As it stands that SHOULD be the norm, but unfortunately it's not, for a variety of reasons.
Christine
(un-dx)
Again, I digress, in my personal opinion, as a chronically ill person living in Canada, I do love my Universal Coverage, and the freedom to seek medical care, at will, and without cost.
I also love that there's never a wait to see if a procedure will be approved. With the exception of elective surgery, it's all covered, all the time. As soon as a doctor requests it, you know it's just a matter of waiting for the appointment.
Some provinces ask for premiums, but those are typically nullified for lower income families. Saskatchewan has no monthly premiums.
I just wish there was a way to speed up the process (not just for me, but for everyone who is stuck waiting for testing).
I'm so pleased DB1 that your experience in diagnosis was so good, and so quick. As it stands that SHOULD be the norm, but unfortunately it's not, for a variety of reasons.
Christine
(un-dx)
One of my best friends lives in La Crete and she tells me that your health care costs you all in other ways...as in very high prices for consumer products. She said that I carton of cigarettes is over $100 a carton. She says that everything costs more in Canada.
I would assume this is how your United Health Care is paid for. High pricers for consumer goods.
If that's what would happen with United Health Care in the US, I would fear the high cost of all consumer goods.
If there is an answer as to how to pay for health care for all, without it bankrupting the citizens just buying a carton of milk, then I don't know if I would be for it or not.
Just a thought.
Heather
I would assume this is how your United Health Care is paid for. High pricers for consumer goods.
If that's what would happen with United Health Care in the US, I would fear the high cost of all consumer goods.
If there is an answer as to how to pay for health care for all, without it bankrupting the citizens just buying a carton of milk, then I don't know if I would be for it or not.
Just a thought.
Heather
I appreciated hearing from everyone. What a lively discussion!
May I ask what percentage of taxes you pay in Canada?
Zilla*
May I ask what percentage of taxes you pay in Canada?
Zilla*
We must have posted at the same time. I think we thinking along the same lines....
Such a complex issue. Great discussion!
Zill*
Such a complex issue. Great discussion!
Zill*
Nothing is free. Health care everywhere is hideously expensive, and we all wind up paying one way or another. Our insurance premiums, etc., can be very high, but probably the taxes we would pay to fund a national system would be even higher. It boils down to what side of the philosophical fence one chooses. The role of big government will go on being debated ad infinitem. There's no question that it fosters huge waste, bureaucracy, bungling and opportunities for corruption. It is not the capitalist way. On the other hand, one could conclude that all these deficiencies notwithstanding, the means is justified by the end in this case.
Where would we be without Social Security, for instance? People should save, plan for their retirement, be responsible, etc., etc., yet many just plain don't and many can't. Should we drop the 'don'ts' overboard and help only the 'can'ts'?
This forum certainly isn't the place for political arguments and I sure don't want that to happen. I'm just pointing out that the subject under discussion is extraordinarily complex.
ess
Where would we be without Social Security, for instance? People should save, plan for their retirement, be responsible, etc., etc., yet many just plain don't and many can't. Should we drop the 'don'ts' overboard and help only the 'can'ts'?
This forum certainly isn't the place for political arguments and I sure don't want that to happen. I'm just pointing out that the subject under discussion is extraordinarily complex.
ess
I agree, when I first posted I thought it was agood idea.
Now, I beleive this discussion might be inappropiate for this forum. I am not sure.
Yet, this is a major concern for all in the US that frequent this forum.
Now, I beleive this discussion might be inappropiate for this forum. I am not sure.
Yet, this is a major concern for all in the US that frequent this forum.
Exactly. What I meant by "great discussion" was that it was great to hear from EVERYONE, not just those who agree or disagree with us on this very complex issue.
Why don't we leave this topic where it stands now, and hope that our leaders will come up with some good, workable solutions.
Fell well!
Zilla*
Why don't we leave this topic where it stands now, and hope that our leaders will come up with some good, workable solutions.
Fell well!
Zilla*
I agree to leave it where it is, but I would like to clarify that indeed our taxes, I'm sure, are higher. We pay tax on everything. Although, to my knowlege, cigarettes are about $80-$90 a carton, but that can vary depending on where you live (provincially).
ABSOLUTELY our healthcare isn't free, if I said that I didn't mean it. I just meant that in some provinces there is no monthly premium. We have hotel taxes, alcohol taxes, cigarette taxes, GST, PST (in most provinces), but Zilla, I don't actually know the percentage that we pay in tax. I'd rather not know! LOL
Christine
(un-dx)
ABSOLUTELY our healthcare isn't free, if I said that I didn't mean it. I just meant that in some provinces there is no monthly premium. We have hotel taxes, alcohol taxes, cigarette taxes, GST, PST (in most provinces), but Zilla, I don't actually know the percentage that we pay in tax. I'd rather not know! LOL
Christine
(un-dx)
I don't see anything political about this discussion. I think it's a healthy discussion. No one is slamming anyone else and only voicing their concerns. This is healthy.
Michael I for one am glad that you brought it up. It helps us all to understand the health care systems around the world.
Thank you,
Heather
Michael I for one am glad that you brought it up. It helps us all to understand the health care systems around the world.
Thank you,
Heather
I looked up tax rates. In Canada they range from 15 to 37 percent and then you have an additional tax to pay in the province where you live, which is mostly double digit.
In the United Kingdom where there are more people to support for universal health insurance, the tax rates are anywhere from mid 20 percent to up to 78 percent tax rate.
Craig does work with people who live in United Kingdom and they very often state that they much prefer our tax rates!!
Elaine
In the United Kingdom where there are more people to support for universal health insurance, the tax rates are anywhere from mid 20 percent to up to 78 percent tax rate.
Craig does work with people who live in United Kingdom and they very often state that they much prefer our tax rates!!
Elaine
I agree with all that this is a healthy discussion, and also with the comment by Ess….this is indeed an extraordinarily complex topic!
I’m no economist, but I would think comparing just health care systems and/or income tax and sales tax rates, outside of the greater context is insufficient and misleading. It is such an apples and oranges comparison. So many differences between our nations: how much we are taxed; what we are taxed on; who bears the greater burden of taxation (ie: low wage vs high wage earners); what health and social and other community services are delivered; to whom they are made available; health care outcomes; etc. etc. It really is complex and I don’t know how one would go about objectively evaluating one vs. the other with so many variables involved. Most of what I have read on this subject is clearly biased towards one position or the other. There are pros and cons to each and every system, and these are subject to what the individual (and the community) values most.
Perhaps more important than the question of whether one system is better than the other, is looking to other countries to discover what is possible, and figuring out what can we learn from each other to improve on what we already have. Although it may not always be obvious, there is ALWAYS a better way.
db1
I’m no economist, but I would think comparing just health care systems and/or income tax and sales tax rates, outside of the greater context is insufficient and misleading. It is such an apples and oranges comparison. So many differences between our nations: how much we are taxed; what we are taxed on; who bears the greater burden of taxation (ie: low wage vs high wage earners); what health and social and other community services are delivered; to whom they are made available; health care outcomes; etc. etc. It really is complex and I don’t know how one would go about objectively evaluating one vs. the other with so many variables involved. Most of what I have read on this subject is clearly biased towards one position or the other. There are pros and cons to each and every system, and these are subject to what the individual (and the community) values most.
Perhaps more important than the question of whether one system is better than the other, is looking to other countries to discover what is possible, and figuring out what can we learn from each other to improve on what we already have. Although it may not always be obvious, there is ALWAYS a better way.
db1
Have an Answer?
You are reading content posted in the Multiple Sclerosis Community
Top Neurology Answerers
Australia
ON
Queensland, Australia
Queen Creek, AZ
Find out how beta-blocker eye drops show promising results for acute migraine relief.
In this special Missouri Medicine report, doctors examine advances in diagnosis and treatment of this devastating and costly neurodegenerative disease.
Here are 12 simple – and fun! – ways to boost your brainpower.
Discover some of the causes of dizziness and how to treat it.
Discover the common causes of headaches and how to treat headache pain.
Two of the largest studies on Alzheimer’s have yielded new clues about the disease
