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Why desiccated Liver works well among the know treatments?
Ray2502 has argued that it’s more likely an enzyme problem. While I’m not sure between that, and a gut problem, it does have some evidence to support Rays claim. Btw, they are very closely related.
Desiccated Liver has lots of amino-acids but also large amount of various liver enzymes, including FMO3. FMO3 is the liver enzyme that removes TMA smelly compound. It does this by attaching an oxygen to the Nitrogen connected to the 3 methyl group in TMA. By doing this, it makes it non-smelly, and hydrophilic as opposed to being hydrophobic and gets excreted out of cells into the plasma. That way it’s easier to remove via urination or sweat.
So FMO3 is responsible for removing nitrogen-containing compounds, about 1000 of them. TMAU2, one of its causes is known to be an overgrowth of one or more specific TMA gut bacteria. Which one? Who knows? Researchers haven’t been able to isolated it specifically. They have however isolated several known TMA gut bacteria in vitro.
I’m starting to think that the PATM compound is just another nitrogen-containing compound that differs slightly from the smelly TMA compound but can be removed by the same FMO3 enzyme. So perhaps it’s slightly smelly or odorless, but different from TMA, and still a substrate for the FMO3 liver enzyme. In a scenario of an overload of this PATM compound, FMO3 would be working hard but not enough to remove a significant portion. That PATM compound becomes elevated in the blood and discharges out in huge amounts through urination, sweat glands, and breath.
When we swallow extra enzymes from desiccated Liver, all proteins, including enzymes because it’s a protein too, are supposed to be destroyed in the gut by proteolytic enzymes and taken apart into separate amino acids. In theory, no proteins should survive because proteins are destroyed starting with strong acid in the stomach. However, since TMA and PATM compounds are made in the gut, some of the desiccated liver enzymes, which survives through the harsh stomach acid and intestine enzymes, will oxidize both TMA and PATM compounds in the gut before they get destroyed. It’s small traces but eventual it brings down the concentration of PATM compounds in the blood in days, weeks or months depending on the dose and load of PATM compound (food size).
I’m assuming taking doses of baking soda 10 minutes before desiccated liver might show improvement but then HCl acid needed for other digestive processes and for killing invading bacteria on food. Perhaps in the future someone will find a way to get them into the small intestine without being destroyed too much.
Anywayz if FMO3 is not the enzyme of interest, then it’s some other liver enzyme. Regardless which one, they’ll all be found within desiccated liver, and may explain why it works after several cycles. Nevertheless, it only works when PATM compounds is not so much. As soon as we eat too much food or food that contains too much of precursors to the PATM compounds, then PATM compounds elevates in the blood and takes days to remove. For instance, for TMAU, an elevation of the precursor compound choline, rich in seafood, will also increase the amount of TMA smelly compound made in the gut by TMA bacteria.
This is an interesting thing, while there are TMA smelling producing bacteria, there are also TMO (oxidized TMA) bacteria. If a biologist in the future can somehow engineer a way to increase the amount of TMO bacteria, then TMAU will become a thing of the past.
Desiccated Liver has lots of amino-acids but also large amount of various liver enzymes, including FMO3. FMO3 is the liver enzyme that removes TMA smelly compound. It does this by attaching an oxygen to the Nitrogen connected to the 3 methyl group in TMA. By doing this, it makes it non-smelly, and hydrophilic as opposed to being hydrophobic and gets excreted out of cells into the plasma. That way it’s easier to remove via urination or sweat.
So FMO3 is responsible for removing nitrogen-containing compounds, about 1000 of them. TMAU2, one of its causes is known to be an overgrowth of one or more specific TMA gut bacteria. Which one? Who knows? Researchers haven’t been able to isolated it specifically. They have however isolated several known TMA gut bacteria in vitro.
I’m starting to think that the PATM compound is just another nitrogen-containing compound that differs slightly from the smelly TMA compound but can be removed by the same FMO3 enzyme. So perhaps it’s slightly smelly or odorless, but different from TMA, and still a substrate for the FMO3 liver enzyme. In a scenario of an overload of this PATM compound, FMO3 would be working hard but not enough to remove a significant portion. That PATM compound becomes elevated in the blood and discharges out in huge amounts through urination, sweat glands, and breath.
When we swallow extra enzymes from desiccated Liver, all proteins, including enzymes because it’s a protein too, are supposed to be destroyed in the gut by proteolytic enzymes and taken apart into separate amino acids. In theory, no proteins should survive because proteins are destroyed starting with strong acid in the stomach. However, since TMA and PATM compounds are made in the gut, some of the desiccated liver enzymes, which survives through the harsh stomach acid and intestine enzymes, will oxidize both TMA and PATM compounds in the gut before they get destroyed. It’s small traces but eventual it brings down the concentration of PATM compounds in the blood in days, weeks or months depending on the dose and load of PATM compound (food size).
I’m assuming taking doses of baking soda 10 minutes before desiccated liver might show improvement but then HCl acid needed for other digestive processes and for killing invading bacteria on food. Perhaps in the future someone will find a way to get them into the small intestine without being destroyed too much.
Anywayz if FMO3 is not the enzyme of interest, then it’s some other liver enzyme. Regardless which one, they’ll all be found within desiccated liver, and may explain why it works after several cycles. Nevertheless, it only works when PATM compounds is not so much. As soon as we eat too much food or food that contains too much of precursors to the PATM compounds, then PATM compounds elevates in the blood and takes days to remove. For instance, for TMAU, an elevation of the precursor compound choline, rich in seafood, will also increase the amount of TMA smelly compound made in the gut by TMA bacteria.
This is an interesting thing, while there are TMA smelling producing bacteria, there are also TMO (oxidized TMA) bacteria. If a biologist in the future can somehow engineer a way to increase the amount of TMO bacteria, then TMAU will become a thing of the past.
Humans only use about 20 amino acids, 10 essentials and 10 inessentials. The 10 inessentials just mean we can actually make them inside the body from other compounds so we shouldn’t worry about eating them. The 10 essentials are the ones that we need to eat and are often called whey protein. The process of making the TMA compound non-smelly is by oxidizing it, this is by adding an oxygen to the nitrogen atom. This makes it non-smelly and hydrophilic. Hydrophilic compounds are pushed out of the cell into the plasma which is easily removed. TMA is hydrophobic because of the positively polar end of the nitrogen atom so stays in cells much longer. This oxidizing process of TMA is done by the enzyme FMO3 in the liver.
Amino-acids doesn’t do this oxidation process for TMA, at least, I’m not aware of any study that supports such ideas otherwise we’ll never get much amino acids as TMA from bacteria will steal them. The only way to stop its smelliness is to modify its chemistry, and amino-acids cannot do that. However, it is possible for amino-acids to interfere with gut bacteria function in a certain way. TMA is produced by bacteria to be used. Perhaps bacteria are finding a better way to achieve the same thing with Amino-acids so leave the choline alone.
But that is not way we think Amino-acids is helping. We think amino acids is helping by healing and repairing gut linking cells. Remember that all digestive problems including TMAU and PATM have the unusual leaky gut problem. It is thought that the “tight-junction” protein is worn out allowing opening between cells. This opening allows large components and toxins to seep through into the bloodstream. The amino-acid glutamine has been found by researchers to definitively help with this repair process.
I’m not aware of any findings for other amino-acids mainly because there haven’t been any studies to confirm. Someone found that taking a load of amino-acids (20 of them) actually makes PATM better. We believe some of the other 19 amino-acids are doing the same thing glutamine is doing.
There are 4 possible nitrogenous bases that can make the 3 codons of a single amino acid making a possibility of 64 amino-acids. It’s curious what the other 44 amino-acids could do if they were readily available.
Amino-acids doesn’t do this oxidation process for TMA, at least, I’m not aware of any study that supports such ideas otherwise we’ll never get much amino acids as TMA from bacteria will steal them. The only way to stop its smelliness is to modify its chemistry, and amino-acids cannot do that. However, it is possible for amino-acids to interfere with gut bacteria function in a certain way. TMA is produced by bacteria to be used. Perhaps bacteria are finding a better way to achieve the same thing with Amino-acids so leave the choline alone.
But that is not way we think Amino-acids is helping. We think amino acids is helping by healing and repairing gut linking cells. Remember that all digestive problems including TMAU and PATM have the unusual leaky gut problem. It is thought that the “tight-junction” protein is worn out allowing opening between cells. This opening allows large components and toxins to seep through into the bloodstream. The amino-acid glutamine has been found by researchers to definitively help with this repair process.
I’m not aware of any findings for other amino-acids mainly because there haven’t been any studies to confirm. Someone found that taking a load of amino-acids (20 of them) actually makes PATM better. We believe some of the other 19 amino-acids are doing the same thing glutamine is doing.
There are 4 possible nitrogenous bases that can make the 3 codons of a single amino acid making a possibility of 64 amino-acids. It’s curious what the other 44 amino-acids could do if they were readily available.
hi dontgiveuphope, thanks for sharing this. Can you please recommend a dessicated liver supplement or mention the one which is working for you? I havent yet tried dessicated liver but was on brownrice protein powders for over a month. Its got a whole lot of essential and non-essential amino acid profiles/chains. Didnt help me. Perhaps this would :)
Also, is there any amino acids that you tackle the smell from the tma compound?
Also, is there any amino acids that you tackle the smell from the tma compound?
4 Comments
Hey @Jon3456, I wouldn’t recommend a particular brand of desiccated liver. I think as long as it’s from natural grass fed beef cattle then it’s OK. Natural fed cattle from remote places like Argentina are preferred by most manufacturers because it’s believed to be fed on patches of grassland where commercial farming has never been done. Most cattle these days are fed with pesticides exposed grains, antibiotics and injected with growth hormones; that’s not what we want. If you’re just curious, the brand I’m using now is called “Solgar Desiccated Liver 250 Tablets”. I don’t think there’s anything special about it. You can buy other natural and much cheaper desiccated liver products and it’ll do the same job efficiently.
I do take brown rice protein as well. What I do notice despite taking these supplements, if I eat meat, sweets, bread, they won’t work. They only work if I’m already on a vegetarian diet.
Perhaps the extreme level that I’m at requires that much effort but some of us may not. RESTORE is one of the products that I can get away with eating a little chicken breast and still relatively OK.
Sorry I wasn’t trying in this post to promote desiccated Liver but rather, to examine why some supplements work and some don’t. Desiccated Liver is one of those supplements that help but we’re not sure completely why it works. There’s only two ingredients in it that I see playing a major role in decreasing PATM. 1) amino-acids 2) Liver enzymes. If somebody tries the baking soda trick and improves the efficiency of desiccated liver, it implies the enzymes are doing the job since amino acids are basic and don’t get broken by stomach acid. If the efficiency is the same after dosage with baking soda, then it might mean it’s just amino-acids doing the job or something else.
If I restrict my diet to just vegetables, shrimps and prawns…and take all the supplements I mentioned before then PATM disappears the next day. It will stay like that for an hour – 3 hours. Recently I only do this three to one day before an important event i.e. meeting, workshop etc. This is because I’m sick and tired of restricting my diet because the effect is never permanent.
If you read the post I recently posted, some TMAU2 doctors have witness patients curing completely via antibiotics. These are mostly children. It’s probably because they’ve never been exposed to most antibiotics before so the gut bacteria are not yet immune to the antibiotic given. I’ve written about this before. I reasoned that if there’s any chance for PATMers to cure it will be the newly PATMers because there’s a chances they’ve never abused antibiotics as we did. C.diff infection was the same thing. While metronidazole and neomycin were still new, it killed C.diff very easily until they became resistant over the years. C.diff these days is resistant to almost all antibiotics but scientists recognized that it cannot survived in fecal matter from a healthy person. They realized there are strains in normal people that actually kill or control C.diff strains. This is why FMT cures C.diff infection.
Mr Nigel Manning, Principal Clinical Scientist, reasoned that it is therefore possible that serving the right course of antibiotics, TMAU2 can be cured. This is however difficult to achieve because the species of microbes making the TMA haven’t been all identified.
Following this direction, it would imply that if PATMers tried a course of the right antibiotics, something that we’ve never been exposed to, then there’s a good chance that a course of antibiotics will cure PATM. Most of the antibiotics out there, we are already exposed to it. Why? Because stupid commercial farmers have fed livestock all kind of antibiotics for decades to increase yields, and agricultural foods have been sprayed with all kind of pesticides for the same reason. These compounds make gut microbes become extremely resistant to almost all antibiotics out there.
I believe the best way to get this out of the way is try the newest antibiotics. For instance, Teixobactin or newer version of Vancomycin. http://www.genengnews.com/gen-news-highlights/vancomycin-modified-to-combat-growing-antibiotic-resistance-threat/81254414
How can we get it? I don’t know but if someone ever has access, make sure you take a supply of at least 6 months to fully cure yourself.
I do take brown rice protein as well. What I do notice despite taking these supplements, if I eat meat, sweets, bread, they won’t work. They only work if I’m already on a vegetarian diet.
Perhaps the extreme level that I’m at requires that much effort but some of us may not. RESTORE is one of the products that I can get away with eating a little chicken breast and still relatively OK.
Sorry I wasn’t trying in this post to promote desiccated Liver but rather, to examine why some supplements work and some don’t. Desiccated Liver is one of those supplements that help but we’re not sure completely why it works. There’s only two ingredients in it that I see playing a major role in decreasing PATM. 1) amino-acids 2) Liver enzymes. If somebody tries the baking soda trick and improves the efficiency of desiccated liver, it implies the enzymes are doing the job since amino acids are basic and don’t get broken by stomach acid. If the efficiency is the same after dosage with baking soda, then it might mean it’s just amino-acids doing the job or something else.
If I restrict my diet to just vegetables, shrimps and prawns…and take all the supplements I mentioned before then PATM disappears the next day. It will stay like that for an hour – 3 hours. Recently I only do this three to one day before an important event i.e. meeting, workshop etc. This is because I’m sick and tired of restricting my diet because the effect is never permanent.
If you read the post I recently posted, some TMAU2 doctors have witness patients curing completely via antibiotics. These are mostly children. It’s probably because they’ve never been exposed to most antibiotics before so the gut bacteria are not yet immune to the antibiotic given. I’ve written about this before. I reasoned that if there’s any chance for PATMers to cure it will be the newly PATMers because there’s a chances they’ve never abused antibiotics as we did. C.diff infection was the same thing. While metronidazole and neomycin were still new, it killed C.diff very easily until they became resistant over the years. C.diff these days is resistant to almost all antibiotics but scientists recognized that it cannot survived in fecal matter from a healthy person. They realized there are strains in normal people that actually kill or control C.diff strains. This is why FMT cures C.diff infection.
Mr Nigel Manning, Principal Clinical Scientist, reasoned that it is therefore possible that serving the right course of antibiotics, TMAU2 can be cured. This is however difficult to achieve because the species of microbes making the TMA haven’t been all identified.
Following this direction, it would imply that if PATMers tried a course of the right antibiotics, something that we’ve never been exposed to, then there’s a good chance that a course of antibiotics will cure PATM. Most of the antibiotics out there, we are already exposed to it. Why? Because stupid commercial farmers have fed livestock all kind of antibiotics for decades to increase yields, and agricultural foods have been sprayed with all kind of pesticides for the same reason. These compounds make gut microbes become extremely resistant to almost all antibiotics out there.
I believe the best way to get this out of the way is try the newest antibiotics. For instance, Teixobactin or newer version of Vancomycin. http://www.genengnews.com/gen-news-highlights/vancomycin-modified-to-combat-growing-antibiotic-resistance-threat/81254414
How can we get it? I don’t know but if someone ever has access, make sure you take a supply of at least 6 months to fully cure yourself.
Scientists have found very early that mice raised in bacteria free environment (gnotobiotic mice) in labs never get IBS, IBD or any digestive diseases. This suggest that there’s a direct link between pathogenic strains and digestive diseases. However, it is impossible to raise anything in real life without microbial exposure. So the key is to keep the beneficial strains and kill or minimize pathogenic strains.
How I wish I had the time so I can actually model the ideas in graphics because it’s easier that way to understand and members can easily understand and contribute faster. In my experience, there are some concepts in various disciples that I found it hard to understand but a simple video made me understand the concept faster than a lengthy 3-hour lecture. Like they say pictures is worth a thousand words, but I think a video clip is worth a million words. For instance, the video below can teach jr high school students the basic concepts of digestion than reading through chapters in a text book. In the same way, animation can explain things quicker than lengthy paragraphs of writing. If I weren’t busy I’d use animations to convey my ideas and others can easily help and contribute by pointing out directly which part they think is wrong and needs modification.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dG2PYD94es
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dG2PYD94es
“Also, is there any amino acids that you tackle the smell from the tma compound?”
Sorry didn’t see the question you wrote below. TMA is a smelly compound. It’s made by specific bacteria in the intestine. These specific gut bacteria convert the precursor molecule choline and carnitine into Trimethylamine (TMA).
Amino-Acids are the subunits of proteins. Another word, you combine various amino-acids to make protein structures. Before we use food protein, they must be broken down into amino-acids again and rebuild to the specific protein shape and size that we need. When we eat proteins, stomach acid and protein-breaking enzymes break the protein in food into simple amino-acids. This process continues on into the small intestine. When individual amino-acids is separated on their own it’s then absorbed through the gut lining into blood vessels surrounding the intestine. These blood vessels run directly into the liver where toxins are detoxified and removed. After that, good blood is redirected into the blood stream where the body can use.
Amino-Acids are the building blocks of protein so are not converted to other things like you suggested, unless necessary. I’m not aware of any bacteria that makes TMA out of amino acids but it’s not impossible. Microbes can evolve to make anything if it needs it. Remember more work means more energy needed so both bacteria and humans don’t perform this energy inefficient chemical pathway unless its needed. Since choline is rich in almost all food, bacteria would just wait for rich loads of choline rather than convert something like amino-acids into TMA. Bacteria, like humans need amino-acids for growth and repair. They need amino-acids to repair damaged protein structures or pure growth. Practically, it appears TMA bacteria only converts choline/carnitine into TMA and wouldn’t do it if they’re absent. Otherwise it wouldn’t make sense to stop choline/carnitine consumption of TMAU patients, if these bacteria can find alternative pathways.
The best way to know if you’re producing the smelly compound TMA is just go to a clinic that tests for TMAU and check. If there’s no elevation of TMA you’re good. After that you’ll never have to worry about choline, fish etc. anymore. I haven’t tested for TMA but I know I’m not producing anything like that since I’m odorless. No one has said to me I smell funny even though they still hold their noses when I’m around..lol. Family members and friends admit after years of being around me that I do cause them allergic reactions, nausea, headaches and cold/flu sickness, but never a smell.
Sorry didn’t see the question you wrote below. TMA is a smelly compound. It’s made by specific bacteria in the intestine. These specific gut bacteria convert the precursor molecule choline and carnitine into Trimethylamine (TMA).
Amino-Acids are the subunits of proteins. Another word, you combine various amino-acids to make protein structures. Before we use food protein, they must be broken down into amino-acids again and rebuild to the specific protein shape and size that we need. When we eat proteins, stomach acid and protein-breaking enzymes break the protein in food into simple amino-acids. This process continues on into the small intestine. When individual amino-acids is separated on their own it’s then absorbed through the gut lining into blood vessels surrounding the intestine. These blood vessels run directly into the liver where toxins are detoxified and removed. After that, good blood is redirected into the blood stream where the body can use.
Amino-Acids are the building blocks of protein so are not converted to other things like you suggested, unless necessary. I’m not aware of any bacteria that makes TMA out of amino acids but it’s not impossible. Microbes can evolve to make anything if it needs it. Remember more work means more energy needed so both bacteria and humans don’t perform this energy inefficient chemical pathway unless its needed. Since choline is rich in almost all food, bacteria would just wait for rich loads of choline rather than convert something like amino-acids into TMA. Bacteria, like humans need amino-acids for growth and repair. They need amino-acids to repair damaged protein structures or pure growth. Practically, it appears TMA bacteria only converts choline/carnitine into TMA and wouldn’t do it if they’re absent. Otherwise it wouldn’t make sense to stop choline/carnitine consumption of TMAU patients, if these bacteria can find alternative pathways.
The best way to know if you’re producing the smelly compound TMA is just go to a clinic that tests for TMAU and check. If there’s no elevation of TMA you’re good. After that you’ll never have to worry about choline, fish etc. anymore. I haven’t tested for TMA but I know I’m not producing anything like that since I’m odorless. No one has said to me I smell funny even though they still hold their noses when I’m around..lol. Family members and friends admit after years of being around me that I do cause them allergic reactions, nausea, headaches and cold/flu sickness, but never a smell.
Man I wish in the future it will become possible to edit our posts like they do on Facebook and YouTube. Sometimes you write something and post it only to realize you've gotten so many spelling mistakes, a whole paragraph/sentence that doesn’t make any sense or ideas just out of order.
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