Should my sister and brother in law be involved with my ex husband still?

[thirdtimemum]

So, I have been divorced from my ex for 4 years now, and it was an ugly nasty breakup, he made up a lot of cruel lies about me that not only affected myself and my friends and family, but also our two kids. It has taken me a lot of time and a lot of damage control to fix the situation with my kids about this, as, 4 years later he still likes to throw in a couple of untrue horrid stories about me to them, and they get upset and ask me about it wanting to know if it's true etc. although my 15 year old daughter is starting to realise for herself the selfish nasty way of her father, and my 12 year old son who lives with him now wants to come back as he too sees living with dad was not all he thought it was cracked up to be.
Anyway, my sisters hubby always did get along with my ex, but I did tell them in the beginning that with my ex causing so much trouble for me I didn't feel comfortable with them being 'buddies' with him as I felt they should of been supporting me, and I wasn't sure if there were sensitive opinions being discussed with him about our divorce. As far as I know, it hasn't been my sister keeping in contact but rather her husband. So, I do realise that we are all adults and I have no right to tell them who they can and can't be friends with, and I have made it quite clear that they are not to involve him with family functions where I will be there with my new partner, I have to draw the line somewhere. But while I don't care about them staying in touch with them via text messages or phone calls (that's none of my business) the latest issue has me troubled. On the weekend my ex took the kids around to their place for a visit (this has never happened before) and my ex told our daughter that she was to keep it a secret and not to go telling her mother. Well on Monday I asked my daughter how did her weekend with dad go and what did they do, and she burst into tears and said she didn't know how to tell me because dad had said not to, but they had gone to my sisters house. I told her it was wrong of her father to say that to her, and that he has now caused another situation due to his mouth again, and it isn't her fault. My sister rang me anyway the next day and told me herself about the visit, and I let her know what my ex had said. She was appalled by it, and said she doesn't know why he would say that when she would of always ended up telling me anyway. Bottom line is, I ended up telling her this situation is not acceptable, that she is risking our relationship as sisters over a man who is no longer in our family, and they should respect my feelings about it considering the nastiness my ex has shown me. My ex will always have to be in my life because of the kids, but I feel my family and my friends are my area, like that is my space where I don't have to deal with him. Now I also have to deal with my daughter who is so stressed out going to school this morning because she said dad is going to be so angry with her for 'dobbing' her in. What is your take on this? Just interested to hear another's input on this tricky situation.

[Grace313]

My ex and I had an ugly divorce, but we are both congenial with each other's families.  I think its good for my kids to feel secure and open to talk to me about their dad's side of their family and I would not appreciate my family treating my ex with anything less than respect.  The opinion of the other person whether it is mine or theirs should be left out, and lines of respect and communication be open for the children's sake if nothing else.
I often bring the kids to their cousins of their dad's siblings birthday parties, and invite them to parties I throw for the kids.
I encourage you to try to open lines of communication, and despite how difficult it may be to be respectful--do so.  If he feels he can speak to you without being lectured or having an argument, he may do so.

[jemma116]

I understand that your split was not an amicable one.  Most splits aren't.

I did also note that your son has been living with his father, but wishes now to come back to live with you, and I do hope you have him back as soon as possible.

There are many reasons why children lie.  Your son may have learned some bad ways from his father, as you say, or this may a psychological issue with your son to not accept what has happened.  I feel there are lots of emotions bottled up inside your son.  At the age of 12 there are lots of things going on emotionally and physically and at this age your son is still a child.  

With regard to your ex, most men don't know how to spend their time with their children.  With your ex spending time in his shed working on his vehicles excessively, this leads me to think that he is suffering from depression.  I am not making any excuses for his behaviour toward you.  
The fact too that he did have a very unhappy childhood will also have a bearing on how he is and because of that too, will not know how to play and have fun time with your son.  It would be difficult for your ex to get any help as he would deny that he has a problem.  Him tinkering excessively with his vehicles, is his way of escaping reality.

I presume too, that whilst your son is living with his dad, your son has very little contact with his own mates.  It could be that your ex is not letting him have or do what he wants.  He may even be missing you, his sister or the family unit.

When your son is back home with you, observe him carefully and speak with him quietly if you notice that he is quiet and withdrawn.  Children too suffer from stress, anxiety and depression.  Don't shout and yell at him if you find that he is lying to you, but find out from him why he is doing this.  It may be that he may need counselling therapy.  

I agree with you when you say that it is none of your business with regard to your ex and his girlfriend.  What is your business is the emotional and physical wellbeing of your children.

I wish you well and hope things get resolved soon for your and your children.

[thirdtimemum]

Thankyou nighthawk, that's wonderful advice you have given me..........but it's not my ex my dad wants to have a word to about this, it's my sister and BIL. My ex and my father despise each other after my father saw how he treated me after the split.
Another one of the worrying troubling issues my son has been having is he has been not so much as making up 'lies' but telling stories with no truth to them, and my ex and I have discussed why he could be doing this, but now I know why, he's learnt it off his father!

[Nighthawk61]

he also loved my family, his family wasn't close at all,

The problems that you encountered with your ex, probably had a lot to do with how he may of been raised. as is many times the case....

You're right, he is like a train wreck and your now young adult kids are witness to it themselves and are and will be making their own judgements. It won't be long until they are off to college or university and dating and too busy to be bothered with their dad's petty and superficial lies and resentments. I know that you're super frustrated, but it i think it would be best for you to take the approach that you feel sorry for this man (for being such a loser, by comparison to what you and your kids blessedly are now building).

Your kids do see your ex spiraling out of control. Would it be better for them to hate their dad for it, or feel sorry for him, that he has a mental obsession with his first divorce, is clueless about learning from his mistakes, and is not in the crux of another break up ?

Thankfully your kids are old enough, and you're not having to fight in a court of law, to cut off visitation completely, in order that they are not influenced negatively by their association with their father.

I think that the worst part of this for you, is that your kids dad is acting like a flake , with little hope of change, and now you're having to admit that your brother in law may be problematic to the family as well. It's like an insult on top of injury.

I know if it were my son, i would have him talk to a Child Psychologist. I would want him to remember that I thought of him before he flew off into the world. I would want him to know I recognized the problem that their parents marriage became in the end, and that I knew enough to help him to talk about it. Otherwise, these kids may be obsessed in their own right, with the break up and how bad it got, and spend their formative years with their own girlfriends and boyfriends, talking about how bad their parent's marriage was, It would allow them closure. and allow them to understand their dad, not make him the villain, but allow them to process their thoughts of their dad into something more empathetic (the root word being pathetic). You've said that your ex "loved your family" and had no closeness with his own. That is probably why he is holding on to his relationship with his brother in law. He has to realize though, that he was at least half the reason that he is no longer part of the family..and that while he can stay friends with whomsoever he wishes, he cannot do so legitimately as a family member would. i.e. visiting your family with his kids. He gave up that right. and when he spoke out of turn about you, made it an impossibility for anyone (your dad and mom) to believe that he has that right anymore. I think that if he loved your parents as you say, that it would be the least caustic and the most loving and effective way for you (your dad) to get across how the family feels about him talking about you in  a negative way in front of the children, and in front of your sister. I think that if your dad could be .... efficiently pragmatic about trying to save your ex from permanently damaging his relationship with his kids... by insisting upon continuing to do things that are doing just that. In other words, he needs to be schooled, and that is what dad's are for. I think he would be the best person for that job. If your ex refuses to be led to water, then i'm afraid that these last few years with his and your kids, will continue to spiral out of control.

Please don't waste your time being too frustrated or angry at people that just don't understand what's gone on, or truly get how hurtful and frustrating it is to still be dealing with this juvenile petty man trying to  hatefully insinuate himself in your life , four years down the road, with a beautiful new baby and partner on your arm?. As a mother, you're beyond frustrated dealing with the facts that instead of being an effective parent and parenting your children in the best way that he could for them., he is playing at his own hobbies, and thinking nothing of what he could be doing with the short amount of time he has left to really leave his mark as a "good dad".  You know what your ex's girlfriend knows. It's time for him to create a life without your family being his crutch. He gave up that right, and no new prospect of his is going to be happy spending their free time socializing with your family, other than of course, social events that revolve around your joint children.

Take some time and breathe, let go of the anger, and figure out how to best thwart the natural progression of his ineffective parenting skills.

I honestly believe that your dad, if he was close to them at all, cold best let him know that things aren't so great, and that he's got a few years to positively influence his kids, instead of making them pawns in a marriage that is over. Somebody needs to tell him that he should be teaching them a new skill, that they have an interest in, that no one else will teach them, Tell him to make his kids feel that they are important by him being the one to spend time going out into the world, with them, rather than to hide away in his shop and let his current girlfriend do his bidding.  

Your ex kind of reminds me of the Cars song Drive....Whos gonna tell you when Its too late Whos gonna tell you things Arent so great You can't go on Thinking nothings wrong

Best of luck and life to you Thirdtimemom. This too will pass.

[thirdtimemum]

Jemma116, my kids have heaps of time with their father, that's one thing they have never been denied. My 12 year old son even lives with him now he has since January. If you read my posts above about the nature of our split you will see there was nothing amicable about it, and therefore that's why I have such strong opinions about this situation.
I must add, my ex hubby's girlfriend, whom he has lived with for the past two years, never went with them as SHE felt it wasn't right to be hanging out with the ex wife's family, she felt uncomfortable about it as well, not for me, but for her own feelings. And my kids are getting old enough now to see the ways in which their father works for themselves, I don't have to say or do a thing anymore, it's unfolding in front of their own eyes. It's none of my business, but my daughter is also upset because her dad and his girlfriend (whom my daughter is very close too) looks like they might be splitting up, the girlfriend wants to leave and my daughter has seen for herself the way he speaks to her as well. My daughter says if they split she doesn't even want to go see her dad every fortnight as he doesn't do anything with her, he just hangs out in his shed tinkering with his project cars, and it's the girlfriend who entertains her and takes her shopping etc.
My son too thought his dad would spend more time with him as well, but apparently not.
So, my ex has had ample opportunity to do the right thing by his kids, but unless you know the man himself and the way he works, it's hard to understand. If he was a genuinely honest person who done the right thing by his kids I would probably have no problem with the friendship, but I stand by the way I feel as he has shown yet again he is sneaky and can't be trusted.

[specialmom]

Nighthawk, you make some points worth noting.  Yes, you are lucky to have a father thirdtimemum that is in your corner.  He understands the dynamics here and how this is hurtful.  and it probably just feels good to feel supported.  That may be a good idea to see if he can express to your brother in law how he could switch a few things to make this a more peaceful situation for you AND the kids.  

I agree that the ex sounds on the sneaky side.  If he had just gone to their house and brought the kids and afterwards was like "well, I didn't realize you'd be upset . . ."  that is one thing.  BUT, he did it knowing she'd be mad, asked the kids to keep a secret from their mother, etc.  That is horrible parental behavior and indicative of his selfishness to put children in that position.

In a divorce situation, you have opportunities to socialize without your kids.  And if it has to remain a secret, then it shouldn't happen.

I think if you are trying to keep your emotions in check and doing as nighthawk says that you are doing the best you can do under the circumstances.  

Best to do always keep the kids out of it.  He didn't when he made the secret visit.  

Anyway, I feel for you.  I'm glad your son is coming back to live with you in the near future.  Honestly, there may be some challenges (he's at a challenging age) but it will be good to have all under one roof more often.

peace and hugs