Is there any hope for our marriage?

[wildflower77]

My husband and I have been married for almost 11 yrs now.  We have two children together and he has a child from a previous relationship.  We also own a house and property.  We have had our ups and downs including infidelity on my part, emotional and verbal abuse on his part, and physical abuse on both of our parts.  He says he is very devoted to me but I am unsure if I have the patience or the energy to fix our marriage.  NYE, we got into a very physical fight and unbeknownst to me, two of the kids witnessed it.  I must have been so angry that I blacked out almost the whole thing because one minute we were arguing, and the next I was running across the street to the neighbor's house.  I have bruises on my wrist, elbow, back, shoulder, both knees, and the back of my head.  He says he has bruises but I haven't seen them.  I wish there was some way for me to remember what happened.  Bits and pieces keep coming back and I am trying to piece them together.  I don't know about his, but my anger and resentment towards him stems from the many years of emotional/verbal abuse he put me through the first 8-9 yrs of our marriage including when I was pregnant with our first child.  He used to be very controlling and passive aggressive and he still is at times although he's toned it down.  I told him last night that this has to stop right now.  I asked him what he though we should do and he just shook his head.  I suggested separation...he said nothing.  The last time I tried, he went crazy and fell into a deep depression so I know that's not what he wants.  I suggested counseling.  We've tried a couple times before but something always happens where we can't go anymore (i.e. counselor moved, money issues, didn't like the counselor, etc.).  He thinks we should try counseling again, but I'm not sure that's the answer.  My best friend of 15 years told me she thinks this is beyond counseling.  Does anyone have experience with healing an abusive relationship or just an opinion they wish to share?

[inga511]

My husband and I just went through very similar situation. I have had  black outs and so has he. I have had bruises. Everything. There is hope. Just dont go to denial and dont let him. Go to your local YWCA-THE BOTH of you together. They have counseling for you, him and the children. There is a way out with out divorce but you and him will have to break the cycle for your children, you can do it!! I am proud of you for reaching out. You are very brave. Don't forget, the kids need counseling too. YWCA is free for u and the kids but he may have to pay a small fee ($20). This is all they do-specialize in abuse. You can call the hotline in the phonebook to find them-do it. Its your family..your their biggest advocate.God Bless you.

Ingrid

[wildflower77]

Thanks, and I very much appreciate your insight.  It has given me a lot to think about.  And you're right about the "limbo" thing too.  I have felt for a long time now that we're just going through the motions.  It's time, as they say, to sh!t or get off the pot.  lol

[specialmom]

Well, don't feel alone, we all have things we are working on with our kids!  We all take our  history----- bad or good and then evolve from there.  We evolve our whole lives and sometimes it takes that long to figure it all out.

I guess I just see this negative pattern of dealing with things with your husband.  You "go there" with him and that is on you to not do it.  Control, self discipline, using those skills you have been taught needs to happen in your romantic life.  And if you are projecting negative feelings about men onto your husband, address it.  It will Always feel that way to you no matter what man you are with if you do not.

The going out . . . well, I'm mixed about it.  I do have friends and go out without my husband.  My husband does the same.  But it is not a longing to do so.  Your longing for a life away from family worries me.  I do need a break here and there for sure . . . and maybe that is all you are referring to.  But it sounds like more than that to me.  Only you would know that and that is something for you to think about.  If that is the case, then you will feel stifled by your husband and family life.  Then I do think your prognosis of saving this relationship is less so.  Because your heart would not be in it.

To save a marriage, you have to really want to.  I just can't tell where you are at with that and I guess that is your quandary.  

Now, your husband has stayed with you after you cheated, right?  I imagine that both of you have some resentment and both need to work on what you are sorry for in this relationship.  Just as you deserve to get what you need, so does he and it is your job to do that end of it.  Sometimes we can turn our attitude around when we think of it that way.  When we take the I out of it and think of them and how they feel.  I don't know.  But if you are going to work on it----------  you'll probably need to do more of that to get anywhere.

It's hard--------- and you seem at a cross roads.  I hope an answer becomes more clear for you.  I always think when we have kids that we work on it---------- but that doesn't mean just staying around in limbo . . .it means work on it.  I think you've (and your husband)  tried in the past--------  and will have to muster the energy and desire to do it again.  I do wish you luck dear.

[wildflower77]

I did kind of get on a roll about the things that bother me about him, but what I think meant to get across as far as "what is within me" is mostly resentment, and anger.  Not all of it comes from him, I guess.  I haven't had the best of father figures in my life.  My dad was a Vietnam vet with PTSD that was never around and was an alcoholic.  My step-dad was addicted to marijuana and physically and verbally abusive to me.  I think that when anyone tries to be a father figure to me now, I push them away.  I don't want anyone telling me what I can or can't do and I don't think a husband should play that role anyway.  I don't know if he thinks I need someone to watch over me and make sure I'm doing everything right, but it bugs the living hell outta me.  It insults my intelligence and common sense.  I've expressed this to him many times and he apparently hasn't been listening.

As far as hanging out in a bar without him, I don't see anything wrong with that as long as I'm not doing something wrong.  What's wrong with talking to my friends and dancing?  It's not that I don't want him there per se, but sometimes I just want a night to myself and I think I deserve that once in a while.  And sometimes it's an event like a friend's birthday and we don't have a sitter and I want to be able to go for a little bit, but I always get the "it's not fair" song and dance.  Even when we both plan on going out together with friends he'll be cool with it a week before, but then the day before he starts acting like he'd rather not go because he doesn't like the type of music they play or many other countless excuses.  Then he expects me to break our plans and stay home with him.  And I don't mean to pick at the details, but it's a repeating pattern with him.  

And I agree with you on the negative pattern I'm repeating with the kids and trust me, I am working on that.  I show much more love and compassion to my kids than my parents ever did.  I catch myself all the time starting to say something to one of them that would have come out of my step-dad's mouth when I was a kid.  I have been to enough counselors to have the skills I need to stop the pattern, I just need to use them more often.

[specialmom]

Hm.  Much said in your last post.  

Let me say first that while you did give me a lot of information, my asking the question "what do you think is within you" was about you and not him.  It was a self reflection question rather than a listing of what he has done wrong.  I read it all and there are some not such great things there but was looking for more of an introspective approach to solving the issue.  Meaning, what is inside of you that lives this way, behaves this way, etc.

I agree that often when someone has had parents and family that fight in the manner you describe as yourselves doing---------- they repeat it as an adult.  Sad cycle.  And now you have kids being brought up in the same one.  There are skills needed to stop a negative pattern.  THAT is what I'd love to see you address with a therapist.  How can you handle your anger.  I've used the anger thermometer, listings of appropriate anger venting approaches, etc. to help when I feel myself boiling over.  We get mad at our kids for fighting, having a meltdown, losing it, hitting someone, etc.----------  which means that WE really shouldn't do it.  You have to get a handle on this.  That is worthy of a therapist of any sort.   Don't get lost in the details of your life---------  they are many (and we all have them)---------  sessions get derailed all the time by the day to day stuff that bugs us verses the things that would change our life---------- and for you I'd say learning how to handle conflict appropriately could help you tremendously.  Break that pattern!

Now, ugh.  I will tell you that I hear something in what you write that worries me (beyond the obvious).  While the goal of marriage is to be a team and combine lives (and yes, have our outside interests and all) . . . I hear you trying to seperate from him.  Yep, I do.  I don't know if you got married to him at a young age and feel you missed out or if you have a lot of single friends but I know of like . . . um . . . I'm dead serious . ..  none of my friends that go out to bars on a weekend night with their friends minus their spouse.  Not saying there is anything wrong with it but it worries me.  There I said it.  What do you do in bars?  Drink.  Talk to your friends.  Talk to strangers that come up.  Dance.  Well, if my husband wanted to do that on the weekends without me, I'd be concerned.  Help me understand what that is about.

You do seem to want out of this marriage.  But . . .  whether it lasts or  not, I think you have some things you MUST address as I mentioned above that have nothing to do with the marriage.  They work against you in this marriage but they will in any romantic relationship that you have.  I think if drinking is an issue, don't brush it under the carpet for you or your husband.  And look for signs of anger in your kids.  They've probably absorbed a lot.  You want to defuse that.  I've written a lot here-------- let me know what you think.  

[wildflower77]

I care deeply about him as a person and as my girls' father.  I cannot say that I am in live with him at this time, no.

And to answer your question about individual therapy, I saw a counselor by myself before we started couples therapy the last time.  My counselor told me she had gone as far as she could with me and that she recommended us both go to therapy.  He saw a counselor at that time too, but I can't remember if he finished.  I can remember that I never felt like he was telling the whole story to his counselor when he shared some of the things they talked about, though.  Like he kept whatever he said biased towards him.  I know it's really none of my business what was talked about in his sessions, but he shared him with me openly and that was the impression I got.  With my company's EAP, we were limited to what counselors we had to choose from as well as who had openings.  We ended up with a Christian counselor, however while we are both Christian, her style of counseling just didn't work for us.  I think we both felt like out of respect we should hold back some things even though I know that she was a professional and was there only to help, not judge.  Even at that, all we did was argue in the sessions and never seemed to get anywhere.

You do ask some interesting questions, though.  Kinda made me think about a few things.  

"What do you think that is within yourself that finds you in such a toxic (at times) relationship?"  I resent him for the way he's treated me in the past.  He talks down to me, makes me feel about two inches tall.  He gets jealous when I go out with my friends and causes a huge argument about it any time I even bring up the subject, then makes it seem like I am the one who started the argument in the first place (passive-aggressive).  He doesn't like to go out with us, but does "just to make me happy" and then acts like he's being tortured the entire time we're out OR gets so drunk he embarrasses me.  He doesn't have many friends of his own because he pushes them all away by being a big know-it-all loud mouth.  The ones that do stick around, apparently are not good enough for him because he always finds some nit-pick reason to stop talking to them.  So therefore he has no one to go out with besides me and my friends and if I want to go out without him or we don't have a sitter, he says it's not fair.  He dislikes my family and speaks ill of them just because they have different values and beliefs than him.  He's rude to my mother.  He has ADD and depression and refuses to take his medications because either they make him feel different or he can't afford them (even though he's got full bottles in the medicine cabinet).  The list goes on and on.

"What stops you from handling things in a respectful, calm way?"  I wasn't brought up in the most respectful and calm household and I suppose I take a lot of my anger from that as well.  I know that I don't want to live like that anymore, but it's hard not to repeat the past.  Frustration plays a big part in it as well.  This has been going on for 11 years now.  I have talked, asked, pleaded, begged, cried, until the cows come home.  Things get better for a week or two and then go right back to normal.  The more we fight, the less patience I have for him.

I desperately want my freedom.  Don't get me wrong, I know I have responsibilities.  I'm a grown-up and a parent first and foremost, but I should be allowed to have time to myself.  I'm tired of having to walk on egg shells wondering how much time is too much and when he's going to start guilting me about it.  And before you ask, he is a volunteer firefighter which is something he enjoys doing, so he has what he considers his free time to hang out at the firehouse with the guys, etc.  Except since what I like to do, which is hang out with my friends, usually at a bar on a weekend night, doesn't benefit anyone but me (unlike what he enjoys), there goes another guilt trip.

[specialmom]

Well, it is very hard.  And some marriages are just harder than others.  All have their problems----------  be assured but some more than others.  And contemplating losing our routine/life/normalcy is hard.  I honestly hope you don't have to.  You've put this much time into it-----------  I guess I just hope that you two learn a way to deal with each other as adult, caring partners.

What do you think about the idea of some individual therapy where you go and talk about your feelings, inability (and I know he is just as bad or worse) to control yourself, handle conflict in a reasonable manner, etc.  I always think that when someone has that much volatility that it has some deeper core to it.  What do you think that is within yourself that finds you in such a toxic (at times) relationship?  What stops you from handling things in a respectful, calm way?  It can't be just him or you'd have left and your story would have read differently.  You'd be a victem but from your story and I commend you for your honesty, you are a party to what goes on.  You had some infidelity, also partake in the fighting, etc.  So I wonder if you examine within yourself how it gets to that point if it wouldn't make things better.  It wouldn't solve the problem because your husband does the same thing and he too would need to solve the problem within himself-------  but if you work on you, you are half way there.  

I think that some therapy for this would benefit you here and wherever you go (with or without him).  All true change starts with ourselves.  And I really have seen where one person has had a change of reaction, procedure during a fight, etc. and eventually it rubs off and things are calmer overall.

Do you still love your husband?

[wildflower77]

Also, I might add, it brings me to tears and makes me very depressed to think of what living somewhere else, by myself, on a different routine would be like.  We have a decent home that we've put a lot of work into on some property.  The girl across the street is one of my best friends.  I don't know how I would do it all by myself with a ten year old with ADHD and a 4 year old.

[wildflower77]

Exactly, if *I* want to.  That's what I'm not sure of.  I've been on here before and I'm sure you remember some of my posts.  I've been unsure for quite some time, but I keep wanting to give it another chance for him and the kids.  I felt in the past like if I didn't give it my best faith effort, I could never live with my decision.  I can admit that I have held onto the resentment instead of trying to let it go, but I guess I just don't know how.  He also guilts me into thinking our kids will be without a father by saying he wont be able to afford to live on his own if he has to pay child support for three kids (he already pays for one, ours would make it three).  He claims he'd have to move to VA with his mother.  I know that would be his decision but I also feel like I had a part in that too by giving up.  The last thing I want is for our girls to think that this is how a woman should be treated or how she should treat her husband.  We do plan on sitting down with the older two that witnessed the fight when we can get them both together.  I've thought about what I am going to say but I don't know if this sounds right:  

"Sometimes when someone loves another person so much and they're afraid of losing them, they don't know exactly how to handle their feelings so they end up hurting the other person.  The thing to do is to learn how to handle those feelings so that doesn't happen".

My ten year old has been through counseling herself for her ADHD and ODD so she is familiar with how certain feelings can turn into anger.

And yes, alcohol has played into it quite a few times, but not every time.  That leads me to believe it's not JUST the alcohol and I told him that last night too.  I know we've both got to learn what each others triggers are.  Mine, for instance (and this played a big part NYE) is he will never let me just walk away and cool off.  He always tries to physically hold me back when I'm trying to get away.  This has been brought up in our past counseling sessions and he always agrees that we need time to cool off but when it comes down to it, it never happens.