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Support Forums for Spouses of Addicts
Does anyone know of a good online support forum for spouses of Addicts, preferably prescription pill addicts. I want to talk to others who are affected by wives or husbands who are abusing ... so that I don't feel alone. My wife is a long time abuser. I've come to realized that I'm am powerless, a meager blip on the radar that sweeps ever so cunningly for its next fix. It is obvious that nothing else is as important as hydrocodone - I don't even know who she is anymore. I work hard for our family and a good portion of the proceeds I provide are pissed away so that she can spend her time high as a kite in our bedroom that has affectively become her lair. I cannot fathom the pursuit to waste away in such wretched state. The compulsion draws lies and deceit that transcend the insult of infidelity. Does anyone else feel as cheated and offended as me? I wonder...
Welcome to the forum. I don't know of any other online sites, but there are members on here that have family members addicted to drugs. Addiction is a family disease and I am sorry your going through this. In active addiction, the most important thing to us is the drugs and it's sad, but true. You will get support and advice here and I hope your wife gets the help she needs. Maybe it's time for some tough love?
Have you ever heard of alanon meetings? I will send you the link to check out. Stick around this is a great support group.
http://www.al-anon.org/english.html
Have you ever heard of alanon meetings? I will send you the link to check out. Stick around this is a great support group.
http://www.al-anon.org/english.html
I can see from the amount of activity here that this is a good site. Thanks for your fast response. What I was hoping to find was a forum within this site dedicated to Spouses. I wonder if one can be created? Spouses are victims of addiction too, but a completely different flavor of victim. To me it seems that only a recovered addict can offer advice to a spouse in full throws of their addict. Current abuser have enough to worry about.
I once tried to confide in my best friend who assured me confidentiality which worked out fine until one night that (of his own birthday party) having gotten a bit drunk he slipped a few sarcastic remarks to the affect of 'hows your pill popping wife'. It's just absolutely remarkable how the prison she creates for herself begins to engulf those around her.
I shall definitely stick around and thank you again...
I once tried to confide in my best friend who assured me confidentiality which worked out fine until one night that (of his own birthday party) having gotten a bit drunk he slipped a few sarcastic remarks to the affect of 'hows your pill popping wife'. It's just absolutely remarkable how the prison she creates for herself begins to engulf those around her.
I shall definitely stick around and thank you again...
there is a site with a great section for friends & family of addiction on ****. *******
I don't know how to begin because your posts have affected me in a real physical way. I'll explain.
See, I was that "pill popping" wife. My g-d what did I do to my husband? I can't begin to imagine how he was feeling, and then I read your post. Whew. How do I begin to make it up to him or is that even possible?
I'm almost 6 months clean. I know he's proud of me, he's told me so. Only I also feel like there is still so much resentment and he's doing all he can to contain it. He is a great man, don't get me wrong. But he's only human so how could he not feel resentment? And yes, I'm better now, I no longer use. Only how do I begin to clean up the aftermath? Well, I'm sorry, I won't go on with this. I only wanted to say how much your words have touched me. I'm glad you came here.
I wish you the best with your wife and her addiction. I hope she finds a way out so you two can reconnect. I am so sorry you are dealing with all of this. The only thing I can say is if she is anything like I was, the person she is now is not who she really is. Does that make sense? When you're an addict, you no longer care about yourself, never mind the people that love you. You only care about getting high. Period. You think everyone is better off without you anyway because you're an addict so you justify your behavior with this reasoning. It's messed up, I know. But unfortunately that's what it becomes. Well, at least it did for me.
Please don't lose hope in her. There is a way out of this mess and it begins with her. Have you told her she needs help and if so what does she say to this? Is she at all aware that she's abusing her meds and is in trouble? There is no way she is happy with the way she is living her life now. Maybe rehab or some kind of outpatient program - would she be willing to consider this?
I will keep you in my thoughts and will continue to read your posts. You have really hit home with me.
See, I was that "pill popping" wife. My g-d what did I do to my husband? I can't begin to imagine how he was feeling, and then I read your post. Whew. How do I begin to make it up to him or is that even possible?
I'm almost 6 months clean. I know he's proud of me, he's told me so. Only I also feel like there is still so much resentment and he's doing all he can to contain it. He is a great man, don't get me wrong. But he's only human so how could he not feel resentment? And yes, I'm better now, I no longer use. Only how do I begin to clean up the aftermath? Well, I'm sorry, I won't go on with this. I only wanted to say how much your words have touched me. I'm glad you came here.
I wish you the best with your wife and her addiction. I hope she finds a way out so you two can reconnect. I am so sorry you are dealing with all of this. The only thing I can say is if she is anything like I was, the person she is now is not who she really is. Does that make sense? When you're an addict, you no longer care about yourself, never mind the people that love you. You only care about getting high. Period. You think everyone is better off without you anyway because you're an addict so you justify your behavior with this reasoning. It's messed up, I know. But unfortunately that's what it becomes. Well, at least it did for me.
Please don't lose hope in her. There is a way out of this mess and it begins with her. Have you told her she needs help and if so what does she say to this? Is she at all aware that she's abusing her meds and is in trouble? There is no way she is happy with the way she is living her life now. Maybe rehab or some kind of outpatient program - would she be willing to consider this?
I will keep you in my thoughts and will continue to read your posts. You have really hit home with me.
1 Comments
My husband has been an addict for nearly two years and I had suspicions , questions, pleaded, and became paranoid and his erratic behaviors but was unable to confirm because he was SO good at hiding it. I was physically, mentally, and emotionally abused the whole way, and continuously blamed myself, even up to the point of his overdose. He was almost one of the statistics. He is currently in rehab and I am so grateful. However, like these posts mention the lies and the hurt are left as aftermath. I recently went to a family programming weekend at the rehab center he was at and it gave me a better understanding of "his mindset." He is an opioid addict and used the pills to bury the pain and when he did not have pills he used alcohol or cocaine. We discussed one of the things he needs from me when coming home (this friday) and the big thing for him was support. Being an individual that he has made feel so small, I was nearly mad at this statement at first, but the more I learned about addiction the more I learned the blame, shame, and guilt that entailed it. I no longer feel hopeless, I no longer blame myself for his actions and behaviors. Love was not enough to overcome the pills and the mentality and NOW I realize that. I have not given up hope on my husband, because like you said there IS a way out and it comes as a matter of CHOICE. He had to chose to get help, but first he had to admit to himself that he did have a problem. Rehab has shown promising to him, and he is hopeful but recovery is a journey I have learned and the easy part is rehab, the tough stuff will begin friday and I'm terrified. Do you have any suggestions of support?
Hello 'ImDone', I just read your words - they touched me. I'm glad to hear from you and I'm encouraged to see that someone can emerge from this deep hole. I'm not sure about your specific situation, but if it is at all like mine, I can assure you he knew exactly when you were high and when you may have been deceiving and manipulative. I think the best way to make up for this is to respect yourself - the key is to help yourself - to appreciate yourself and by doing so, you appreciate him. In my mind, I'm successful if my wife is happy - if she augments with junk then that's a slap in the face.
Thanks you for your advice - you see my situation is such that I live with someone who is, has, and probably alway's will be, a private person who has difficulty (on junk or off junk) opening up to others, and trusting others. My wish is that she understand that she can open up to me with no fear of judgement ... maybe one day she will realize this.
So the bottom line for you is that you can easily make it up. Do it by showing you respect yourself, that you appreciate life - when you can respect yourself, so too can others respect you as well. An amazingly simple formula clouded by a multitude of distractive force.
I have a feeling you shall be just fine ;)
Thanks you for your advice - you see my situation is such that I live with someone who is, has, and probably alway's will be, a private person who has difficulty (on junk or off junk) opening up to others, and trusting others. My wish is that she understand that she can open up to me with no fear of judgement ... maybe one day she will realize this.
So the bottom line for you is that you can easily make it up. Do it by showing you respect yourself, that you appreciate life - when you can respect yourself, so too can others respect you as well. An amazingly simple formula clouded by a multitude of distractive force.
I have a feeling you shall be just fine ;)
Oh my. You've brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for responding to me. You have no idea what your words mean to me. And I think you are exactly right about how my husband perceived me about what I was doing to myself. I also think he feels he is a good husband if he has a happy wife. I am doing all I can to make it back by taking care of myself. And I'm getting there. Stronger than ever and that won't change. Drugs are out of my life for good. Whew.
Thank you - I will continue to look for you here. I can't tell you what it's done for me to hear the other side of the horrible situation that I created and thought I was living by myself. I have never been more wrong and I will never make that mistake again. Your words are very powerful to me.
Thank you. And please keep posting - you will find so much support here. The members are wonderful, so kind and compassionate. A truly amazing place.
You and your wife are now in my prayers. :)
Thank you - I will continue to look for you here. I can't tell you what it's done for me to hear the other side of the horrible situation that I created and thought I was living by myself. I have never been more wrong and I will never make that mistake again. Your words are very powerful to me.
Thank you. And please keep posting - you will find so much support here. The members are wonderful, so kind and compassionate. A truly amazing place.
You and your wife are now in my prayers. :)
Hello again - you are so sweet, how nice to hear from you. It is kind of interesting isn't it that I'm talking to the hopeful future version of my wife ;). So you see you give me hope and as it sounds, I'm helping you a bit - I see this is a 'truly amazing place'...at this point, actually it should be my wife who's thanking you. This morning I found a stash of empty containers - in all what added up to 3,000 pills all consumed within the last 3 months - the thoughts that go through your head...bewilderment, amazement...disappointment. I'm digressing, the point being that after chatting with you, I'm more hopeful now so thank you.
I'll be interested to continue hearing from you and interested to hear that you can eventually go beyond breaking the habit and taking it to the next level where you can forgive yourself. Like I said there is nothing to do for him to make up or cancel out the past. You live the future to the fullest - recognize yourself and love yourself first so that others (husband) can recognize and love you back ;)
I'll be interested to continue hearing from you and interested to hear that you can eventually go beyond breaking the habit and taking it to the next level where you can forgive yourself. Like I said there is nothing to do for him to make up or cancel out the past. You live the future to the fullest - recognize yourself and love yourself first so that others (husband) can recognize and love you back ;)
Is your wife currently using? Has she ever had much clean time under her belt during her past attempts of sobriety?
The reason I ask is that she can't do this on her own. You can't help her do this on her own. It takes so much more than that. There are quite a few people here with significant clean time under their belts. I myself have been clean for about 10 months or so. Although it's not all that much time I know I'm well on my way to having many years of sobriety.
I first started taking pain meds due to injuring my back in Iraq while serving in the Marine Corps. For the first year I never took more than prescribed and only took that as needed for pain. I ended up having surgery, the pain went away and I had no problem putting them down. I did have withdrawals but I got through them just fine. I later found out that it's not the physical part that is difficult but the mental aspect of it. Long story short I ended up back on the pain meds due to scar tissue from the surgery causing more pain. This later led to me abusing the pills.
For the next few years I tried to quit many times. Some of those times I would make it a month and other times I would make it a day or two. I kept going through the same routine expecting different results. I finally realized that what I was doing was not working. I finally took the advice of some of the wonderful people on this forum and started attending NA meetings and an addiction therapist. I finally learned the tools I needed to stay in recovery and am still learning new tools to use everyday.
Your wife has to want to quit for herself before she will ever be successful. I'm sure you already know this but there is nothing you can say or do to make her want to quit. For many it takes hitting their rock bottom. The tough part about this is figuring out what her rock bottom is. For some it's as simple as the spouse telling them to stop. Some feel enough guilt that they were caught using and that's all it takes to put them down. For others it takes losing their house, car, job, marriage, family, friends or for some death is their only rock bottom. It can be such a tricky situation on how to go about talking to someone about their addiction. It can be so hard to show them you love them yet be firm enough to make them realize what they are doing to themself and the people around them. More than likely she is filled with guilt and remorse but it takes more than that to quit. It takes hitting their rock bottom. Depending on how long this has been going on it may be time for an ultimatum. You may have to speed up the time it takes for her to reach her rock bottom. One thing you may want to try is by cutting off all of her funds. This means taking her name off of the bank accounts and freezing credit cards. The problem with this is some addicts will do anything and everything to get their pills which can lead to crime. Some will go to extremes to get pills and some won't. It's going to take a lot of soul searching on your part to come up with the plan that you think will work best. Have you considered contacting an interventionist? They would be able to sit down with you and come up with a good plan. One thing they will mention is enabling. There can be such a fine line between support and enabling. I'm gonna use the money thing again as an example of enabling. If you know she is buying pills you are enabling by letting her have access to money. There are many other ways that can make us enablers and that's why it's best to seek outside help.
Gizzy above mentioned Al Anon meetings. They will help you so much. You will meet others that are in your shoes and the support will be tremendous. You will also get ideas on how to help your wife. Definitely check into them.
Do you think you could get your wife to come to this forum and post? Many people here will agree that we wouldn't have been able to get clean without all of the help of this forum. This forum is a wonderful place full of wonderful people. I know you mentioned that your wife is a pretty private person but maybe the fact that she would be talking with a bunch of people she doesn't know personally will be enough to get her to come on here. Nobody here judges so she doesn't have to worry about being put down. It's a place where she can come and talk to people that understand exactly what she is going through because most of us have been there or are there as we speak.
The main thing is to try and get her to start some meetings, go to an addiction therapist, or if funds allow get her into treatment. Some can't do it on their own even with meetings or a therapist. Some need inpatient rehab. Either way she needs to learn the tools in order to achieve sobriety. Once she learns these tools she can then start working on her recovery which in turn will allow you too also. Addiction isn't just affecting her whether she thinks that or not. It's a family disease and will take teamwork even years down the road.
I wish you the best of luck with this battle you are going through right now. Please stick around and post whenever you feel the need. You will learn so much reading through the many posts on here. Arm yourself with knowledge about addiction. Doing so will up the odds of getting your wife the help she needs.
Let her know about us here. We will do all we can to help the both of you.
Brian
The reason I ask is that she can't do this on her own. You can't help her do this on her own. It takes so much more than that. There are quite a few people here with significant clean time under their belts. I myself have been clean for about 10 months or so. Although it's not all that much time I know I'm well on my way to having many years of sobriety.
I first started taking pain meds due to injuring my back in Iraq while serving in the Marine Corps. For the first year I never took more than prescribed and only took that as needed for pain. I ended up having surgery, the pain went away and I had no problem putting them down. I did have withdrawals but I got through them just fine. I later found out that it's not the physical part that is difficult but the mental aspect of it. Long story short I ended up back on the pain meds due to scar tissue from the surgery causing more pain. This later led to me abusing the pills.
For the next few years I tried to quit many times. Some of those times I would make it a month and other times I would make it a day or two. I kept going through the same routine expecting different results. I finally realized that what I was doing was not working. I finally took the advice of some of the wonderful people on this forum and started attending NA meetings and an addiction therapist. I finally learned the tools I needed to stay in recovery and am still learning new tools to use everyday.
Your wife has to want to quit for herself before she will ever be successful. I'm sure you already know this but there is nothing you can say or do to make her want to quit. For many it takes hitting their rock bottom. The tough part about this is figuring out what her rock bottom is. For some it's as simple as the spouse telling them to stop. Some feel enough guilt that they were caught using and that's all it takes to put them down. For others it takes losing their house, car, job, marriage, family, friends or for some death is their only rock bottom. It can be such a tricky situation on how to go about talking to someone about their addiction. It can be so hard to show them you love them yet be firm enough to make them realize what they are doing to themself and the people around them. More than likely she is filled with guilt and remorse but it takes more than that to quit. It takes hitting their rock bottom. Depending on how long this has been going on it may be time for an ultimatum. You may have to speed up the time it takes for her to reach her rock bottom. One thing you may want to try is by cutting off all of her funds. This means taking her name off of the bank accounts and freezing credit cards. The problem with this is some addicts will do anything and everything to get their pills which can lead to crime. Some will go to extremes to get pills and some won't. It's going to take a lot of soul searching on your part to come up with the plan that you think will work best. Have you considered contacting an interventionist? They would be able to sit down with you and come up with a good plan. One thing they will mention is enabling. There can be such a fine line between support and enabling. I'm gonna use the money thing again as an example of enabling. If you know she is buying pills you are enabling by letting her have access to money. There are many other ways that can make us enablers and that's why it's best to seek outside help.
Gizzy above mentioned Al Anon meetings. They will help you so much. You will meet others that are in your shoes and the support will be tremendous. You will also get ideas on how to help your wife. Definitely check into them.
Do you think you could get your wife to come to this forum and post? Many people here will agree that we wouldn't have been able to get clean without all of the help of this forum. This forum is a wonderful place full of wonderful people. I know you mentioned that your wife is a pretty private person but maybe the fact that she would be talking with a bunch of people she doesn't know personally will be enough to get her to come on here. Nobody here judges so she doesn't have to worry about being put down. It's a place where she can come and talk to people that understand exactly what she is going through because most of us have been there or are there as we speak.
The main thing is to try and get her to start some meetings, go to an addiction therapist, or if funds allow get her into treatment. Some can't do it on their own even with meetings or a therapist. Some need inpatient rehab. Either way she needs to learn the tools in order to achieve sobriety. Once she learns these tools she can then start working on her recovery which in turn will allow you too also. Addiction isn't just affecting her whether she thinks that or not. It's a family disease and will take teamwork even years down the road.
I wish you the best of luck with this battle you are going through right now. Please stick around and post whenever you feel the need. You will learn so much reading through the many posts on here. Arm yourself with knowledge about addiction. Doing so will up the odds of getting your wife the help she needs.
Let her know about us here. We will do all we can to help the both of you.
Brian
hi you will find a lot of support for spouses on this sight we have several regulars our membership is got a wide variety of people mothers fathers husbands wife's all looking for help it also go that you take some time and use this site to learn about addiction and the struggles with it so you can help your wife you may want to introduce here to our site
she wont feel so all alone.................Gnarly
she wont feel so all alone.................Gnarly
I just wanted to see how you were doing tonight? Your most recent post made me think of something.
During my early days of withdrawal, we just happened to have scheduled our "spring clean up". No, it wasn't actually spring - it was months later. But we had scheduled and paid for an actual dumpster to be brought on our property and had to make good use of this time (actually we ended up needing two dumpsters - YIKES).
During the clean-up process, one of the areas I was supposed to focus on was my personal bedroom closet. Now granted, I felt like I was not in the right place to tackle such a project, but that stupid dumpster was booked, in place, and I had no choice.
When I started to go through my things to determine what could be thrown out or given to charity, I couldn't believe my eyes. I must have found 100+ prescription bottles thrown about everywhere - in shoes, coat pockets, shoe boxes, boots, laundry basket. UNBELIEVABLE. I was never more ashamed of myself in my entire life. My husband had given me a smaller garbage container to use before he had to carry it out to the dumpster. So there was no way he wasn't going to see what I was throwing away as he dumped out the containers, one by one. And the only thing I really remember about these moments was the silence. The deafening silence. He did not say a word.
When he got out to the dumpster and tipped the smaller garbage container, you could hear the "pings and pangs" of the bottles hitting the side of the dumpster. Let me tell you, it was surreal, watching all of those bottles flying all over the place. I simply looked, turned away and walked back into the house. He never brought it up with me after that. Never.
I can't imagine what he must of been thinking, looking at all those bottles that stole his wife away. But after hearing your words, I will not let myself dwell on those moments. I will never forget them, mind you, but I will not dwell on them. I'm going to keep going and appreciate the here and now. That's all we've got right? May as well make the best of them.
I wondered if you have you thought yet about talking to her about all of this? I remember you said she was an extremely private woman. So am I (another thing she and I have in common). Which is why this place has meant so much to me. I can come here, vent and get all kinds of great advice and information, and still maintain anonymity. I do think this place would be good for her, but I also remember where I was at when I was still using. It took me weeks to get here. I just couldn't summon up enough courage to post, but let me tell you, I did read. And read. And then read some more. Getting all of the information about my DOC and reading others success stories has played a HUGE role in where I'm at today. She doesn't have to post right away because I didn't, but she can begin with really small steps, like I did. Just a thought.
And thank you again - and I won't repeat why because you already know. :)
During my early days of withdrawal, we just happened to have scheduled our "spring clean up". No, it wasn't actually spring - it was months later. But we had scheduled and paid for an actual dumpster to be brought on our property and had to make good use of this time (actually we ended up needing two dumpsters - YIKES).
During the clean-up process, one of the areas I was supposed to focus on was my personal bedroom closet. Now granted, I felt like I was not in the right place to tackle such a project, but that stupid dumpster was booked, in place, and I had no choice.
When I started to go through my things to determine what could be thrown out or given to charity, I couldn't believe my eyes. I must have found 100+ prescription bottles thrown about everywhere - in shoes, coat pockets, shoe boxes, boots, laundry basket. UNBELIEVABLE. I was never more ashamed of myself in my entire life. My husband had given me a smaller garbage container to use before he had to carry it out to the dumpster. So there was no way he wasn't going to see what I was throwing away as he dumped out the containers, one by one. And the only thing I really remember about these moments was the silence. The deafening silence. He did not say a word.
When he got out to the dumpster and tipped the smaller garbage container, you could hear the "pings and pangs" of the bottles hitting the side of the dumpster. Let me tell you, it was surreal, watching all of those bottles flying all over the place. I simply looked, turned away and walked back into the house. He never brought it up with me after that. Never.
I can't imagine what he must of been thinking, looking at all those bottles that stole his wife away. But after hearing your words, I will not let myself dwell on those moments. I will never forget them, mind you, but I will not dwell on them. I'm going to keep going and appreciate the here and now. That's all we've got right? May as well make the best of them.
I wondered if you have you thought yet about talking to her about all of this? I remember you said she was an extremely private woman. So am I (another thing she and I have in common). Which is why this place has meant so much to me. I can come here, vent and get all kinds of great advice and information, and still maintain anonymity. I do think this place would be good for her, but I also remember where I was at when I was still using. It took me weeks to get here. I just couldn't summon up enough courage to post, but let me tell you, I did read. And read. And then read some more. Getting all of the information about my DOC and reading others success stories has played a HUGE role in where I'm at today. She doesn't have to post right away because I didn't, but she can begin with really small steps, like I did. Just a thought.
And thank you again - and I won't repeat why because you already know. :)
i am so happy i found this post! i have been wondering if there was any kind of forum for spouses also. my boyfried is addicted to pain pills and it's always a losing battle for me. i constantly have it on my mind and i can't wait for the day that he's clean. i could sit here and read everyone's post all day long. i still have faith that he will quit one day, i just want it to be sooner rather than later.
1 Comments
HOLD FAITH!! because I NEVER thought that my husband would admit his problem passed his pride! But God had a bigger plan. My husband is currently in rehab. I remember the long nights I would wait up because he wouldn't come home wondering if he was alive, high, or what kind of mood he was in. I would cry myself to sleep. I thought WHY GOD JUST WHY, EVERYDAY. I prayed for a breaking point, and I promise that losing battle can have a winning war and that is the faith I hold in my husbands recovery!
Hi bmdad and (gnarly_1), thanks for your wonderful lengthy post. Before anything else, please let me commend you for your service in the marines. This also puts into perspective that anyone is vulnerable even soldier. I remember my dentist telling me about how Sodium Pentathol (general anesthetic) will take down even a 300 lb brute - so it just goes to show how powerful narcotics really are.
I agree with you in that she needs help and cannot do it alone. I would love to get her on this site, it's just a matter of how to go about doing it. A few things have to happen first. Number one is I need to take some time to prepare myself to put some of the anger aside - I sometimes can barely take in the reality that she has stolen vacations from her family by choosing to take her own and that can at times be infuriating. I'm also mad at myself for being too passive and let it happen. It is like a catch 22, confrontation could lead to hostility from her - being a naturally combative and controlling person, she is difficult to approach and it takes finesse. And so, choosing to not act then enables the problem. It is insidious. Then as I digest these facts, I come back in circles of anger towards her for being the puppeteer of this madness. It is hell.
So the only option as you've pointed out is to be the agent of change. My coming here is the beginning I think. I will have to mediate on the strategy though...
Thanks for your support and candor about your situation. It's nice to know that you are out there looking out for others ;)
I agree with you in that she needs help and cannot do it alone. I would love to get her on this site, it's just a matter of how to go about doing it. A few things have to happen first. Number one is I need to take some time to prepare myself to put some of the anger aside - I sometimes can barely take in the reality that she has stolen vacations from her family by choosing to take her own and that can at times be infuriating. I'm also mad at myself for being too passive and let it happen. It is like a catch 22, confrontation could lead to hostility from her - being a naturally combative and controlling person, she is difficult to approach and it takes finesse. And so, choosing to not act then enables the problem. It is insidious. Then as I digest these facts, I come back in circles of anger towards her for being the puppeteer of this madness. It is hell.
So the only option as you've pointed out is to be the agent of change. My coming here is the beginning I think. I will have to mediate on the strategy though...
Thanks for your support and candor about your situation. It's nice to know that you are out there looking out for others ;)
He did not say a word. I can tell you he probably felt like me in this next little story...
The first time I addressed my situation, I mustered the courage, grabbed a container and and calmly asked 'can you please explain this'. At first she gave me a baloney store about back pain. I stood my ground and surprised her with what I already knew. I basically told her I would support her to stop. What I remember most vividly of that time (about 7 yrs ago) was that I had never seen so much shame in her face and body language - I felt nothing but deep sorrow for the remaining wisp of dignity I saw in someone that once had so much zest. I'm sure for your husband that the toppling over containers were reminding him that your love had been evacuated. It is a somber experience that just sort of extinguishes anger...
So I'm sure you are wondering what happened with our confrontation. The next day she posted a chart that listed out the days of the week and wrote the numbers being ingested. I thought that showed courage, she succeeded and got down to zero. Of course that was bitter sweet.
I need to try again. This time armed with the support of this group...Thanks again ;)
The first time I addressed my situation, I mustered the courage, grabbed a container and and calmly asked 'can you please explain this'. At first she gave me a baloney store about back pain. I stood my ground and surprised her with what I already knew. I basically told her I would support her to stop. What I remember most vividly of that time (about 7 yrs ago) was that I had never seen so much shame in her face and body language - I felt nothing but deep sorrow for the remaining wisp of dignity I saw in someone that once had so much zest. I'm sure for your husband that the toppling over containers were reminding him that your love had been evacuated. It is a somber experience that just sort of extinguishes anger...
So I'm sure you are wondering what happened with our confrontation. The next day she posted a chart that listed out the days of the week and wrote the numbers being ingested. I thought that showed courage, she succeeded and got down to zero. Of course that was bitter sweet.
I need to try again. This time armed with the support of this group...Thanks again ;)
We are in it together...hang tough elibell07
Only one thing comes to mind right now. Your wife is really lucky to have you. That's all I'm going to say. :)
I am the mother of an opiate addict and I so understand your anger,fustration, and fear. I honestly cant tell you anything that will help with this situation. You need to figure out a way to approach your wife about her addiction. She is going to lie, deny, get defensive and mad at you. That is the reality of it all. You have to try to get her to get some help. If she wont. You need to cut all access to money from her. She will dig you so far in you will never get out. When they are in active addiction all they care about is their next fix. It is the hard reality of it all. I hope she will seek help. But you cant make her get help. It is something she has do do for herself. Hope this helps. Feel free to contact me anytime. I know all seems hopeless but as you can see on this site. People overcome this addiction everyday. It is doable. Everyone here is amazing and will help you more than you think.
Tee
Tee
Hi Tee, so sorry to hear that we share the same crooked path. We are victims of the wreckage that the addiction causes. We are punished by the drug which has scoped us on it's path. I'm fully aware that unless the addict wants to stop, the drug will continue to operate and bring out the foulest of human traits.
Some suggest that nothing can be done until rock bottom has been reached. But how far down is that? How far down will a human plunge? I feel like the hand at the top of a well.
Recently I've been thinking about the movie Trainspotting. Contrary to popular belief, this is one of the most inspirational movies you can watch. Most believe it is a glorification of Herion addiction, it is not. Rather, the message of the story is that Renton (Ewan Macgreggor) breaks the addiction. There is a song in there by Pulp called Mile end - it pinpoints exactly the nature of an addict
"I guess you have to go right down
Before you understand just how
How low, how low a human being can go"
So I'm beginning to think that it is nearing time for me to send her an email that links to this site...I see the people here are wonderful. Thankyou ;)
Some suggest that nothing can be done until rock bottom has been reached. But how far down is that? How far down will a human plunge? I feel like the hand at the top of a well.
Recently I've been thinking about the movie Trainspotting. Contrary to popular belief, this is one of the most inspirational movies you can watch. Most believe it is a glorification of Herion addiction, it is not. Rather, the message of the story is that Renton (Ewan Macgreggor) breaks the addiction. There is a song in there by Pulp called Mile end - it pinpoints exactly the nature of an addict
"I guess you have to go right down
Before you understand just how
How low, how low a human being can go"
So I'm beginning to think that it is nearing time for me to send her an email that links to this site...I see the people here are wonderful. Thankyou ;)
I feel anyone is vulnerable when it comes to addiction. I myself was never addicted to anything up until my injury. In the past I would drink but only socially and not all that often. In high school I did smoke pot a couple times but didn't enjoy so I stopped with no issues. When I first started taking vicodin for my back pain I never took more than prescribed and only as needed. This lasted for a year until I had my surgery. After my surgery the pain went away for the time being and I put the vicodin down without a problem. I did experience withdrawals though because my body became dependent. Mentally I was fine, physically I was a wreck for a week. But after awhile my pain returned from scar tissue buildup. I then went back on the pain meds to control legitimate pain. But as my tolerance grew I continued to take more and more. Eventually I was taking them not only for the pain but also for the high. I then crossed that line from being dependent to addicted. I feel this can happen to anyone if they are on them for a long enough time. I didn't have any addictive qualities at all before all of this. Looking back it's almost like I was blindsided by it. I think before any patient is prescribed narcotic pain meds they should have to go through a week long class that shows just how easy it is to become addicted. The should also show true life videos of the devastating effects the pills can have. The pharmacy does give paperwork with all scripts saying how it can be habit forming. But most of us already know that. The need to do more to make everyone aware of just how habit forming they really are.
I feel you are going about your wife's addiction in one of the best ways possible. If someone has never been addicted they have no idea what it is like. The next best way to learn about addiction is by hearing it from others. Keep reading posts on here especially new members who come on here and post. You will notice that they are full of guilt, shame, and scared out of their mind. I can almost guarantee that your wife has all of these feelings. Admitting to ourselves that we are an addict is hard enough but to actually admit it to someone else, especially a loved one, is so much more difficult. My wife still has no idea just how bad I got. She knows I was taking a few more than prescribed but but mainly thinks it was only every now and then and when I was having a bad day with the pain. I was very close quite a few times coming clean to her but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. In society the word addict has such a bad rap. Everyone non addict seems to think that every addict is like a felon. When most people hear the word addict they instantly think of some jobless, homeless person sitting behind some trash cans in a dark alley in a bad part of town with a needle hanging out of one arm and a bottle of whiskey in the other. An addict just isn't socially accepted as being a decent productive member of society. Until everyone realizes that an addict isn't a bad person but rather a sick person most addicts will keep it a secret. At least they will keep it a secret and not admit they really have a problem until someone comes along with open arms and will care and show the loving support an addict so desperately needs. That's my opinion on it at least.
I'm sure she is full of guilt, shame, anger, etc. The thing is she can't do this on her own. Even if she said today, "I'm done" and went through withdrawals for a week or two her chance of relapse is probably close to 100% unless she gets some outside support such as NA or an addiction therapist. There is no cure for addiction but we can keep it in remission. Cancer can be put in remission with the help of chemo and medications. The only medicine an addict has to keep their addiction in remission is their recovery program. Would cancer go away if the patient tried treating it on their own? No way. Neither will addiction. Until she realizes this she will more than likely continue down the path she is currently traveling. I'm sure if she could quit on her own she would have a long time ago. It's just not that easy. I'm also sure that if she could go back in time and prevent herself from taking that first pill she would. Even though I've been clean for 10 months I still wish I would have treated my pain from the get go by other means like I am doing now. But I also know I can't change the past and all I can do is make the right decisions from this day forward. That's how you will have to approach this also. Once you do get her to finally put an end to this madness you have to let her know that the slate will be wiped clean and you are ready to start over.
Continue to arm yourself with knowledge. That is really the only weapon you have right now if you want to save her life. Granted, you could divorce her and move on with your life which would make your life a bit easier but it wont save her life. You also have to realize that even once she gets clean that addiction doesn't go away. She will be an addict for the rest of her life and it will take work to stay clean. That's why once you get her into recovery she is gonna have to agree to work her recovery for the rest of her life whether it be NA, a therapist, or both. The more she does the less chance she has at relapsing although relapsing is always going to be a possibility.
One thing we recommended on here in the past to a mother of an addict was for her to try and get him on here. She also stated that her son was a very private person and didn't think she could get him on here. We had her start a thread asking everyone to type their story and where they are at now. We tried to share our thought process while in addictive addiction. The reason for sharing our thought process was to show just how similar all of stories really are. Most who come on here can't believe that so many of us share the same feelings and that our stories are so alike. We then had her print off the thread so her son could read it in hopes that he would then come on here and join us. I'm sure your wife feels so alone and feels as if there's no hope and nobody that can understand what she is dealing with. But if you can get her on here she will realize that she no longer has to feel so alone. Many don't come online until they are at the end of their rope and are desperate. Some are just playing with the thought of trying to get clean. Either way most that come here do end up at least trying to get clean. Almost everyone here that finally took the plunge will say that they could not have done it without this forum. This forum seems to give the little nudge or that little added bit of motivation that so many of us need to take that plunge.
Just keep continuing the research, take notes from what you learn and get a plan together. You have some tough work ahead of you but it can pay off. Your wife will eventually be so thankful that you stayed by her side and helped her through all of this. It may help to print of this thread that you started. I think ImDONENoMore may really be able to help your wife see the light. Her story and your wife's story seem so similar. Maybe having your wife see she made it through may help her realize that she can too. You know your wife so you have to decide how to approach this. Take baby steps though. It may take a serious ultimatum to get her to finally do this or it may just take her getting on here and reading. If you take those baby steps you may end up knowing sooner than you think whether or not you are going to have to apply more pressure or not.
I commend you for the process you are taking. You can never have too much knowledge and it show you are willing to try anything and everything. Let your wife know that we are here to help when she is ready.
Brian
I feel you are going about your wife's addiction in one of the best ways possible. If someone has never been addicted they have no idea what it is like. The next best way to learn about addiction is by hearing it from others. Keep reading posts on here especially new members who come on here and post. You will notice that they are full of guilt, shame, and scared out of their mind. I can almost guarantee that your wife has all of these feelings. Admitting to ourselves that we are an addict is hard enough but to actually admit it to someone else, especially a loved one, is so much more difficult. My wife still has no idea just how bad I got. She knows I was taking a few more than prescribed but but mainly thinks it was only every now and then and when I was having a bad day with the pain. I was very close quite a few times coming clean to her but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. In society the word addict has such a bad rap. Everyone non addict seems to think that every addict is like a felon. When most people hear the word addict they instantly think of some jobless, homeless person sitting behind some trash cans in a dark alley in a bad part of town with a needle hanging out of one arm and a bottle of whiskey in the other. An addict just isn't socially accepted as being a decent productive member of society. Until everyone realizes that an addict isn't a bad person but rather a sick person most addicts will keep it a secret. At least they will keep it a secret and not admit they really have a problem until someone comes along with open arms and will care and show the loving support an addict so desperately needs. That's my opinion on it at least.
I'm sure she is full of guilt, shame, anger, etc. The thing is she can't do this on her own. Even if she said today, "I'm done" and went through withdrawals for a week or two her chance of relapse is probably close to 100% unless she gets some outside support such as NA or an addiction therapist. There is no cure for addiction but we can keep it in remission. Cancer can be put in remission with the help of chemo and medications. The only medicine an addict has to keep their addiction in remission is their recovery program. Would cancer go away if the patient tried treating it on their own? No way. Neither will addiction. Until she realizes this she will more than likely continue down the path she is currently traveling. I'm sure if she could quit on her own she would have a long time ago. It's just not that easy. I'm also sure that if she could go back in time and prevent herself from taking that first pill she would. Even though I've been clean for 10 months I still wish I would have treated my pain from the get go by other means like I am doing now. But I also know I can't change the past and all I can do is make the right decisions from this day forward. That's how you will have to approach this also. Once you do get her to finally put an end to this madness you have to let her know that the slate will be wiped clean and you are ready to start over.
Continue to arm yourself with knowledge. That is really the only weapon you have right now if you want to save her life. Granted, you could divorce her and move on with your life which would make your life a bit easier but it wont save her life. You also have to realize that even once she gets clean that addiction doesn't go away. She will be an addict for the rest of her life and it will take work to stay clean. That's why once you get her into recovery she is gonna have to agree to work her recovery for the rest of her life whether it be NA, a therapist, or both. The more she does the less chance she has at relapsing although relapsing is always going to be a possibility.
One thing we recommended on here in the past to a mother of an addict was for her to try and get him on here. She also stated that her son was a very private person and didn't think she could get him on here. We had her start a thread asking everyone to type their story and where they are at now. We tried to share our thought process while in addictive addiction. The reason for sharing our thought process was to show just how similar all of stories really are. Most who come on here can't believe that so many of us share the same feelings and that our stories are so alike. We then had her print off the thread so her son could read it in hopes that he would then come on here and join us. I'm sure your wife feels so alone and feels as if there's no hope and nobody that can understand what she is dealing with. But if you can get her on here she will realize that she no longer has to feel so alone. Many don't come online until they are at the end of their rope and are desperate. Some are just playing with the thought of trying to get clean. Either way most that come here do end up at least trying to get clean. Almost everyone here that finally took the plunge will say that they could not have done it without this forum. This forum seems to give the little nudge or that little added bit of motivation that so many of us need to take that plunge.
Just keep continuing the research, take notes from what you learn and get a plan together. You have some tough work ahead of you but it can pay off. Your wife will eventually be so thankful that you stayed by her side and helped her through all of this. It may help to print of this thread that you started. I think ImDONENoMore may really be able to help your wife see the light. Her story and your wife's story seem so similar. Maybe having your wife see she made it through may help her realize that she can too. You know your wife so you have to decide how to approach this. Take baby steps though. It may take a serious ultimatum to get her to finally do this or it may just take her getting on here and reading. If you take those baby steps you may end up knowing sooner than you think whether or not you are going to have to apply more pressure or not.
I commend you for the process you are taking. You can never have too much knowledge and it show you are willing to try anything and everything. Let your wife know that we are here to help when she is ready.
Brian
Brian, some times I wonder if she is filled with guilt and shame and think instead she is filled with hatred for me. Today she said, 'omg, dear oh dear, you can't believe that groceries were $1,800 this month - the kids are eating so much'. My kids are 4 and 6. No kid eats that much food a month. Oh by the way, that doesn't include meals for us, because ya know why, we don't have a meal time, we have don't bother me it reality tv time and I'm not leaving this lair.
Let me tell you if told someone that blatant a lie - I would think they were a complete idiot to believe it. And if I believe they bought it I'd snigger at them for being so foolish.
That's how I feel! This is insidious. I have little compassion today.
Let me tell you if told someone that blatant a lie - I would think they were a complete idiot to believe it. And if I believe they bought it I'd snigger at them for being so foolish.
That's how I feel! This is insidious. I have little compassion today.
Well, if she's anything like me (and as you and I talked about, I think she might be) it's guilt and shame. And she's going to continue to justify her behavior and will continue to defend it so she can keep using. That's what I did. My husband would ask questions, I'd give him some baloney answer and he knew it was BS. And he too lost compassion - of course he did. How could he (you?) not? As husband and wife, we're supposed to be honest with each other right? Only there's nothing honest about addiction. It's all lies and deceit. And we become incredibly selfish people. I was never proud of myself when I was taking all that poison. It takes away your self-worth, your judgment, your common sense. And most of all it takes away your honesty. We aren't honest with ourselves when we're using so how could we be honest with our loved ones? Not possible.
Have you spoken to her yet about what you're feeling? Does she know you come here for knowledge and support? If it were me, and I knew my husband had to turn to this web site for support that he should have been getting from ME, it would at the very least certainly make me think. I mean, maybe it would be a start to a conversation that's long overdue? Please don't misunderstand me as I know you are suffering. I can't help but hear my husband in your words, so it's heartbreaking for me to imagine what you're going through. But maybe somewhere deep down inside she's looking for a way out - someone to push her there maybe? Yes, in the end, it's all us. We have to do the work to get clean. And we are the only ones who can keep us clean. But if she saw your pain, and heard the pain in your pleas for her to get help, maybe that would at the very least get her thinking about what she's doing to herself and what she's doing to you. Just something to think about.
I will continue to keep you in my prayers. And her too. :)
Have you spoken to her yet about what you're feeling? Does she know you come here for knowledge and support? If it were me, and I knew my husband had to turn to this web site for support that he should have been getting from ME, it would at the very least certainly make me think. I mean, maybe it would be a start to a conversation that's long overdue? Please don't misunderstand me as I know you are suffering. I can't help but hear my husband in your words, so it's heartbreaking for me to imagine what you're going through. But maybe somewhere deep down inside she's looking for a way out - someone to push her there maybe? Yes, in the end, it's all us. We have to do the work to get clean. And we are the only ones who can keep us clean. But if she saw your pain, and heard the pain in your pleas for her to get help, maybe that would at the very least get her thinking about what she's doing to herself and what she's doing to you. Just something to think about.
I will continue to keep you in my prayers. And her too. :)
hello.my computer was down and i haven't been on here for about 10 days. i am the wife of a RECOVERING addict. i found this site about 11 months ago. i want to tell you there is a light at the end of the tunnel. when i found this site my husband and i had been separated for a year. he left me and ( i kicked him out) and our four children so he could continue using his methadone and xanax. this had been going on for 14 yrs. of our marriage. my family was broken ( i thought it was beyond repair),he had been an heroin addict befpre we were marriedand had been clean for 7 years when we got married and remained clean for another 5 years. then things just didn't seem right. missing money, time not accounted for, falling asleep,strange cell phone calls, leaving the house at unusual times, just didn't add up. i asked and got answers ok trust that is what marriage is about. he always worked we had our own business, he functioned very well. more questions more lies. i find a bottle and he confessed. sorry, sorry won't happen again. i believe i trust. i miscarried and i later believed it was because of his use that something was wrong with the baby.he went away to a rehab for a month or so. came back things were fine for awhile .i had 2 more babies within 22 months. he began
to use again. then he said i am going to go on methadone for awhile to help with my cravings. little did i know once on meth. hardly ever get off.
so much hurt,lies, deceit, hate,yelling, screaming, fighting, we were living a lie, i felt i had to cover up for him to protect our family. emotionally, mentally i was a mess, trying to keep myself and my family together. he always denied his use, got nasty, abusive to me and the children. i definitely enabled i had no where to go and he refused to leave. i never worked outside the home and depended on him for the finances. he started to remove the dates from the meth and pill bottles and claim they were old. NOT. so we lived in our secret behind our closed doors for 14 years. finally in feb. 2009 after my oldest son and daughter had also started to use pot, coke and pills did i have enough. i finally had him arrested and he left the house. he lived in a room and continued to use, became very suicidal. he had become a shell of the man i once knew. he didn't care about his family, our business, himself and even life. in jan. 2010. i cleared out all the bank accounts and he had no money. he threatened, cursed, screamed, i agreed to pay for a hotel room for one night and said he must go to rehab. he went kicking and screaming but he went. stayed 3 months. that is when i found this site in march 2010. he has been clean now for 10 and 1/2 months on feb. 23rd it will be one year. we are still healing, day by day. my children are bouncing back. my 25 yr. old son has been clean for 1 and 1/2 yrs. my 19 yr. old daughter has been clean for 13 months, my 13 and 11 yr. old boys have been in therapy for two and a half yrs. we are been restoring by the grace of God. during their use they are ashamed, embarrased, in denial, have lost their dignity, i was going for a divorce one year ago and i now sit it typing this. i would never have believed it myself.
we had a miracle , God is able to do it for you too. i will post again. i just want you to know i have forgotten so much of what has happened to my family. i am working through my bitterness and am working on forgiveness. when i said my vows i did say for better or worse and i know the better is getting better day by day.
God is working, keep the faith.
debbie
to use again. then he said i am going to go on methadone for awhile to help with my cravings. little did i know once on meth. hardly ever get off.
so much hurt,lies, deceit, hate,yelling, screaming, fighting, we were living a lie, i felt i had to cover up for him to protect our family. emotionally, mentally i was a mess, trying to keep myself and my family together. he always denied his use, got nasty, abusive to me and the children. i definitely enabled i had no where to go and he refused to leave. i never worked outside the home and depended on him for the finances. he started to remove the dates from the meth and pill bottles and claim they were old. NOT. so we lived in our secret behind our closed doors for 14 years. finally in feb. 2009 after my oldest son and daughter had also started to use pot, coke and pills did i have enough. i finally had him arrested and he left the house. he lived in a room and continued to use, became very suicidal. he had become a shell of the man i once knew. he didn't care about his family, our business, himself and even life. in jan. 2010. i cleared out all the bank accounts and he had no money. he threatened, cursed, screamed, i agreed to pay for a hotel room for one night and said he must go to rehab. he went kicking and screaming but he went. stayed 3 months. that is when i found this site in march 2010. he has been clean now for 10 and 1/2 months on feb. 23rd it will be one year. we are still healing, day by day. my children are bouncing back. my 25 yr. old son has been clean for 1 and 1/2 yrs. my 19 yr. old daughter has been clean for 13 months, my 13 and 11 yr. old boys have been in therapy for two and a half yrs. we are been restoring by the grace of God. during their use they are ashamed, embarrased, in denial, have lost their dignity, i was going for a divorce one year ago and i now sit it typing this. i would never have believed it myself.
we had a miracle , God is able to do it for you too. i will post again. i just want you to know i have forgotten so much of what has happened to my family. i am working through my bitterness and am working on forgiveness. when i said my vows i did say for better or worse and i know the better is getting better day by day.
God is working, keep the faith.
debbie
Hi again, you are right in so many ways - and again many many thanks for your insight and perspective. I need to let her know how I feel. I have reservations however. I'm need to be ready for an onslaught of accusations that I'm the creator of the monster for making life so difficult. It might be easier if I could believe that I was responsible for all this but the thing is that she is privileged to not have to work or barely lift a finger basking in the support of me, her family, my family who routinely take the kids out and let her be. I believe the problem stems from the inability to appreciate 2 things - the world around you and yourself. Appreciating these sustains a dynamo of life. I think of her sometimes as the ultimate optimist - that's one who says the glass is 1% empty when it is 99% full.
So part of me seems to feel that I need a queue - that she is sick and tired and wants my help. But I don't see that now. I just feel that she views me as dr frankenstein.
So part of me seems to feel that I need a queue - that she is sick and tired and wants my help. But I don't see that now. I just feel that she views me as dr frankenstein.
I believe my husband felt as you do. Only he went against all of his preconceived notions about how to support someone and supported me anyway. I thinkt that's where you need to go. (again, please don't take me the wrong way). I know she's crying out for help, even if those cries are silent to you. She needs someone to help her out of this horrible mess she has created for herself - and as her husband, I'm afraid that person is you. Like it or not. (again, please don't take offense to my harsh reply I mean no disrespect and I know you want to wring her neck, I know). I could "feel" my husband's comtempt towards me and he had every right to feel that way. Only he ignored those feelings long enough to help me find my way out.
And she will continue to view you as Dr. Frankenstein as long as she feels you are judging her. Feeling disappointment from her, feeling that she isn't the person you feel she can be. Until she feels safe to tell you why she's using, she'll never feel the security she so desperately needs to find her way out. It's so strange writing to you - I feel like I'm able to speak for her and you are able to speak for my husband. How much I wish you two could speak to EACH OTHER. There's no other way to begin here except to open up to each other. The more you continue to keep your feelings in, the more she'll assume you don't care and continue to abuse her drugs.
I continue to keep you and her in my thoughts and prayers. Please please find a way to begin a dialogue with her about what you're feeling. PLEASE. p.s. and again, i don't mean to come across as harsh. i'm only speaking from my heart.
And she will continue to view you as Dr. Frankenstein as long as she feels you are judging her. Feeling disappointment from her, feeling that she isn't the person you feel she can be. Until she feels safe to tell you why she's using, she'll never feel the security she so desperately needs to find her way out. It's so strange writing to you - I feel like I'm able to speak for her and you are able to speak for my husband. How much I wish you two could speak to EACH OTHER. There's no other way to begin here except to open up to each other. The more you continue to keep your feelings in, the more she'll assume you don't care and continue to abuse her drugs.
I continue to keep you and her in my thoughts and prayers. Please please find a way to begin a dialogue with her about what you're feeling. PLEASE. p.s. and again, i don't mean to come across as harsh. i'm only speaking from my heart.
No worries at all please, no need to apologize. This is very helpful. Of course you must completely understand that (regarding the whole Dr. Frankenstein thing)...that...well, it just becomes so much harder to respect someone the deeper the fall. I get it believe me - that the addiction feeds the original cause more and more incessantly and its grip tightens as a result.
What I'm trying to express is that for there to be a catalyst, I need a to see a spark. I need to see the first step, no matter how small I will support so strongly.
Perhaps the best thing to do is to try to coerce that first little bit of effort. I think that is the right thing to do,,,
Oh and yes, it is quite surreal playing each other's spouse right? Look for an message from me soon ;)
What I'm trying to express is that for there to be a catalyst, I need a to see a spark. I need to see the first step, no matter how small I will support so strongly.
Perhaps the best thing to do is to try to coerce that first little bit of effort. I think that is the right thing to do,,,
Oh and yes, it is quite surreal playing each other's spouse right? Look for an message from me soon ;)
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