School says daughter has problems, but pediatrician & therapists don't

[DLS22574]

I'm at my wits' end.  My daughter is fairly well behaved at home, but since 1st grade has had behavior problems at school, and they've gotten much worse this year.

Her current classroom is small and crowded and my daughter has been complaining endlessly at school that it's very noisy and she can't concentrate.  She's been moved to different seats and it hasn't helped.  She's allowed to leave the classroom when she gets too overwhelmed, so she spends a good chunk of time outside the classroom so she misses a lot of the lessons.  The teacher is exasperated by her behavior and wants my husband and I to find a solution to it.  I told her that she is sensitive to noisy environments and hates crowds but we don't know what to do about it.

She's on a IEP for her behavior problems and last year her IEP team said I should tell her pediatrician that she has behavior problems in school and that she needs a referral to a therapist because they think she has mental issues.  When I told the pediatrician about my daughter's problems in school, she didn't think they were a big deal and told me she doesn't need a therapist.  When I told the IEP team what the pediatrician said at this year's meeting, they were livid.  They told me at this meeting that I absolutely have to find a therapist for my child, that she has severe mental issues and that she wouldn't make it in middle school if I didn't. (She's in 4th grade right now.)  I've contacted several therapists and most wouldn't see my daughter because they didn't think she had any mental problems, and that seeing her would be a waste of their and my daughters' time.  They said it was the school's responsibility to resolve the issues.

Right now I don't know what to think, and I'm panicking because the IEP team expects me to line up a therapist but no therapist will see her.  I don't want to tell them that no therapist will see her because I'm very afraid of their reaction (I find the IEP meetings very intimidating.)  I'm still looking for a therapist.  I was wondering if anyone else has been in a similar situation.  Thanks.

[AnnieBrooke]

Rather than wait for the meeting, call the IEP people and explain exactly who you have tried and what they have said.  Give the IEP person the number of your child's pediatrician and let the two of them talk, or ask the pediatrician to contact the IEP person.  I don't see why making all of this work is falling solely on you.

[Sandman2]

   You said, "  I've contacted several therapists and most wouldn't see my daughter because they didn't think she had any mental problems, and that seeing her would be a waste of their and my daughters' time."   How could any competent therapist make that judgement without seeing your child first?  Makes me wonder what kind of a therapist you are seeking out.  Find a pediatric psychiatrist or psychologist and make an appointment for them to see your child.   Now if finances or insurance is a problem and that is why you have been trying those therapists - then thats another matter.
   Also schools (normally) don't put a child on an IEP unless the school psychologist has been involved.  Hopefully, this is true in your case.  If so - the psycs report should be enough to get you into any door.
    Another idea is that from your brief description - it sounds like she might have SIDS or sensory integration disorder.  Check info on it at this web site to see if any of the symptoms sound familiar - http://www.sensory-processing-disorder.com/index.html
    So really do take a look at SIDS.  Also what type of therapists have you been trying to contact?   And frankly, tell the school to put into writing that you need to line up the therapist.  If they do - they will have to pay for it.  And I could go on for here for quite awhile as this gets complicated.  

[stillamommasgrl]

As I read your post I found myself becoming very angry.  I am appalled at the behavior of the people at your daughter's school.  The problem doesn't seem to be with your daughter.  It seems to be the school that has the problem.  I have been dealing with similar issues with my oldest son (now 17) since he entered the public school system.  The only time he had behavioral issues was at school, which seems to be the case with your daughter as well.  Please don't let them intimidate you.  You have to be your daughters advocate.  It is unfortunate that the public school system has become more concerned with parenting our children than providing an education for them.  I'm not sure why they thought moving her to a different seat would help her concentrate in an overcrowded classroom and "allowing" her to leave the classroom is an even more ridiculous solution to a problem they have created and allowed to continue.  You mentioned that her teacher is exasperated.  Well, I'm sure she is, because she has too many students and none of them are getting the education or attention they deserve. But she doesn't get to just give up and blame you or your daughter  for her incompetence.  If she is having difficulty doing her job, which is to educate your daughter, than she needs to take that up with the school, not her students and their parents.  Your poor little girl is paying the price for her teacher's laziness and poor attitude.
I thought the purpose of an IEP was to help the child.  After reading your post I thought maybe I had been mistaken, so I looked for a definition, of sorts, for an IEP and found this information provided by a public school system:
"The IEP creates an opportunity for teachers, parents, school administrators, related services personnel, and students (when appropriate) to work together to improve educational results for children with disabilities. The IEP is the cornerstone of a quality education for each child with a disability.

To create an effective IEP, parents, teachers, other school staff and often the student must come together to look closely at the student's unique needs. These individuals pool knowledge, experience and commitment to design an educational program that will help the student be involved in, and progress in, the general curriculum. The IEP guides the delivery of special education supports and services for the student with a disability."

I failed to find anything in that definition that mentioned the role of an IEP being that of a psychologist or psychiatrist.  What gives them the right to say she has "severe mental issues" and try to bully you into making her see a therapist that another doctor has already stated wasn't necessary.  I am not a doctor, but I am a parent, and I don't think your daughter has "severe mental issues".  If the problem is with the child, then the problem will exist in most all situations, not just at school.  This school is setting her up to fail.  They have already made their minds up about her and they have labeled her.  This can be so damaging to a child.  Our children are supposed to have protection against bullying in school, but who do we turn to when the teachers and administrators are the ones doing the bullying.  They don't stop to think about the impact their (the teachers and administrators) behavior has on the other children.  Because of the label they have given her and the way they treat her in the classroom, the other students could respond by isolating her.  I know this happens because I saw it happen with my own son.  I know how it hurts because I had it happen to me.  The school blamed the behavior of the other students towards my son on him, and used this as further proof (in their minds) that he was antisocial.  I don't understand how they can overlook the damage they are doing to our children.  I feel so bad for your family.  I am truly sorry if I just rambled, and I really hope that some of what I said makes sense and doesn't just sound like the rantings of a bitter mother.  To this day my son still blames himself for things that he had no control over because he believed the things they said about him.  Just keep in mind that they have only known your daughter for a short time and they only see her in the unhealthy environment they have created for her.  She is only responding to their messed up way of handling a situation that she has no control over.  It is not her fault that her classroom is overcrowded and that her teacher doesn't know how to deal with it and doesn't seem to be willing to learn.  It isn't your fault either.  It sounds like you have done everything they have asked of you and more.  I know how exhausting it can be to constantly have to fight for your child's right to be treated as an individual who deserves respect and a proper education, even if they don't necessarily fit into their preconceived mold of the perfect child. But you have to do it.  That IEP team has no right to force you to do anything you don't feel comfortable with.  Your little girl shouldn't be made to feel like there is anything wrong with her when obviously the problem is with the people at her school.
I really hope Diva2317 sees your post and responds to it.  She always has such good advice, as do so many others here, and I don't feel like I have helped you much with my ranting.  I'm sorry for that, and maybe when I have calmed down a bit I will be able to think more clearly and I will send you a message.  I know when others read your post you will get better advice, but I had to respond just to let you know that you are not alone and that my heart really does go out to you and your precious little girl.  Please try to stay strong for her and for you and your husband, and know that there are a lot of people here who will support you and be there for you when you need help.

[margypops]

Totally agree with your post well said its exactly as I see it also ..I think you have indeed helped DLS   I definatly ,from what we have read here think the school is at fault .good luck

[specialmom]

Hi there.  My son too is very different at school than he is at home which is actually quite common for kids with nervous system issues.  My son has sensory issues and the school enviroment is a place that exacerbates that.  He is "out of his element".  So his nervous system doesn't function at its best.  He too can be quite distracted with 'lots' going on around him.  

I'm a little confused by your post.  It is my understanding that an IEP can ONLY be issued after an assessment in which a child met some type of criteria AND academics are affected.  You can't have an IEP just for behavior.  A 504 plan may be used for this but academics have to be an issue as well to have an IEP.  Does your daughter struggle with her school work?  This is good to really look into because if she is having trouble, acting out is one thing kids do in that situation.  Perhaps extra tutoring could then help her, that type of thing.

I also know that no liscensedd psychologist would refuse to see your daughter based on talking to you on the phone.  Whether she behaves beautifully at home or not, she is not coping well at school and that is something that would be a problem.  You just can't write it all off to a bad school or teachers because 27 other kids in the class aren't having these issues, right?

I don't say this in a way to say it is all your daughter's issues as the school may be remiss in handling things as well.  But I would suggest that looking at the school as giving you a red flag that your daughter has some things to overcome is a better approach.  

I will tell you that my son had a horrible time for a good deal of time.  He wouldn't do anything his teachers wanted him to do, he had disruptive behavior, he wandered the room and wouldn't stay in his seat.  By addressing his nervous system (we did occupational therapy), he has improved greatly.  No IEP, no 504 plan.  No behavior issues.  He's now 8.  I took the warnings of the teachers seriously and acted on it to find a way for him to learn to function.  

I've been in my son's 2nd grade classroom, loud, chaotic, hard for even me to focas.  My son's teacher has 28 kids in the class and while my son is super important to me and hopefully to her, I also realize that one child can not take all the attention of the teacher.  They have intervention specialists that then work with a child that can't maintain in a classroom. It sounds like your child needs to be in an intervention situation at school in which she does have some one on one time outside the classroom or a quiet place such as the intervention room to do her work.  

Realizing that your child isn't coping well is not to say they need to have a big scary diagnosis.  But eventually not coping well will  lead to other issues.  Self esteem can plummet.  Her peers may shun her because she is the 'girl that acts up in class'.  Other parents will not invite her over because she gets that reputation, etc.  It isn't the teacher's fault when that happens, it is the natural consequence of how she behaves at school.  I say that with a heavy heart because I've been there.  That was us a few years ago.  We still work on self esteem with my son.  And if fact, may begin counseling for him to address how he feels about himself.  He is doing really well but still will feel bad about himself from time to time.  I'm on the mind that if I can help with that, I will and therapy is known to help.  I care about how my son is feeling and want him to feel as good about himself as he is able!  So see, therapy isn't a scary word but a way to help our kids.  

I hope you sort it out.  It is hard to see our kids struggle.  I know I resisted for a long time believing my son needed help but after I got it for him, I wondered why I waited so long.  And for the anti diagnosis/anti drug people, my kid has never been on medication a day in his life but identifying what his issues were is how we got him to be a well behaved, functioning child that is pretty darn happy now.  good luck to all

[DLS22574]

Thank you for your advice.  I've contacted my pediatrician's office and said I would get the school to fax over the IEP reports to her.  Hopefully, she will be able to talk to them.

[specialmom]

Yes, anniebrooke gives a straight forward suggestion that may really help.  Ultimately, you sound like you are hoping to help your child and I do hope you are able to find ways of doing that.  We advocate for our child and have to be able to count on all involved to do their part.  

[DLS22574]

I've been contacting any therapist that deals with children.  It's been frustrating when they won't even offer to talk to my daughter in person one time.  The main reason most of them said they wouldn't take her is because she hasn't been violent or threatening to the other students.  The worst she's done is tell another student to shut up because they were talking in class.

I will definitely look into SIDS.  She's always been very hyper at home, which doesn't bother me at all but I thought she would have calmed down a little by now and she hasn't.  It isn't much of an issue at school, ironically, it's mostly complaining about the noise in the classroom.  I don't think she is as bad as the school says she is, but I would like her to get help for the noise sensitivity, so she can at least be able to cope with it.

[specialmom]

Yes, do look into sensory integration disorder.  
There is a site I like that gives good description of it called 'sensory processing disorder".  Autidory processing can be difficult to deal with in a school enviroment.  Look into what they call "heavy work" on that site as well because I find by doing these types of activities, it helps my son regulate-----  even auditory processing is much better.  If you need any ideas, I have a million.  I truly feel it has helped make my son's life so much better.  And that is really the goal----  we don't care if the school is miserable with our child (although, it hurts our feelings) but rather that our child is able to be successful and happy at a place she/he has to go to every day.  An occupational therapist that specializes in sensory integration disorder is so very helpful and give ideas for things to try at school.  
I'm surprised that the therapists won't see you as my son isn't threatening either.  I would try again with a plain old psychologists that deals with kids and say that you have concerns about how your child is coping emotionally at school.  

what grade is she in, by the way?

[DLS22574]

It's definitely okay to rant.  Sometimes I've been frustrated by the school. She was originally put on the IEP because she was receiving speech therapy in preschool and they wanted to continue that in kindergarten.  She was behaving very well in kindergarten and the first time I met with her teacher, she told me "This is the first time I've had an IEP student that wasn't a troublemaker."  I remember feeling very offended by that comment.  Sometimes I do feel she has been pigeon holed.  She always had friends until this year when the teacher told me she's refuses to socialize with the other students.  I asked her about this and she told me, "I heard a bunch of girls from my class talking about me and they said everybody thinks I'm crazy.  Why should I bother trying to make friends when everybody thinks that?"  It's been very tough, because there's not much I can do because I'm not at school with her.  I've toured the classroom and they're packed like sardines in there.  It seems like they expect me to change her personality overnight and be more adaptable, but I can't.  I wish she would have better coping skills but she doesn't.  There are certain things she doesn't like and  she will let you know about them.  I've talked to her about this, that when you get older you just have to put up with some things you don't like, but it isn't getting through.  I find it very sad that the cutbacks in the school are affecting her education, but unfortunately it is.  I'm sure it is affecting her self-esteem.  I was an IEP student from kindergarten to 8th grade and I knew from the get-go that I was different and inferior to the other students, no one had to tell me.  It's very hard to see that happening to her too.  I'm glad to see I'm not alone in this.

[DLS22574]

She was originally on an IEP because she was delayed in her speech.  She started pre-school at age 3 where she was receiving speech therapy and the speech therapy continued until 1st grade.  They kept her on the IEP because she was having behavior problems in school starting in 1st grade.  It never really affected her school work (she usually got A's and B's) until this year.  Her last report card was C's and D's, which is very concerning to me. Perhaps, the guidelines are different in other states, because I was on an IEP and I was an honor roll student.

I do sympathize with the teacher, but there isn't much I can do because I'm not school with her.  I do wish there were more teachers and classroom wasn't so crowded but it's out of my control.  My daughter has had issues with all her teachers except in kindergarten and preschool.  She's very outspoken and when she doesn't like something she lets you know.  I suppose she rubs them the wrong way.  I suppose I was in denial about her behavior problems in the past because the behavior problems didn't seem that bad to me and she wasn't acting out at home.  I'm very concerned this year because it seems to have gotten worse.  I don't think she has severe mental issues, but I'm worried about her problems with noise and  her inability to cope with it.  I don't want to have her put on meds if we don't have to, so hopefully we can find ways to avoid that.

I'm glad your son is doing better and thank you for your advice.

[DLS22574]

My daughter is in 4th grade.  I'll definitely look into sensory integration disorder.  The last time I talked to her about school, she told me it was very stressful and boring on top of being noisy.  She actually burst into tears during the conversation, which is very unusual for her.  I would like her to enjoy going to school again.

[specialmom]

ah, I'm so sorry she is having a difficult time of it.  I think that out of character response and that she is crying is a sign that someone to talk to would be really helpful for her.  Psychologists and therapists work on all kinds of things besides just mental health disorders ---  if a child has issues with social skills/peers, that is a common subject, self esteem, general unhappiness, even maybe her communication style with adults and friends.  It isn't really changing a kid to work on developing skills that didn't come naturally or fixing ways of handling things that don't work.  It is the same thing as an adult that is having trouble with their marriage and feeling bad about it----  they see a therapist to address new things to try that might help the situation, different communication techniques to try, and in general, to help deal with emotions the difficult situation is causing.  It isn't changing someone's personality to seek this kind of help but teaching them new skills and making them feel heard by an empathetic ear.  

Hopefully you'll be able to find some info out about sensory processing.  I have a niece that has auditory issues and noise threw her off.  Her iep includes headphones and an ipod during certain times of the day at school.  

I do wish you luck and hope very much that things improve with your daughter!

[Sandman2]

   Yes, I definitely think that checking out SIDS is worth your time.  
You know she also shows signs of a child with ADHD.  But normally they don't complain about the noise in a classroom.  However kids with ADHD do have a very hard time concentrating in a noisy environment and if she is trying to get good grades its possible.  I have found from years in the classroom and monitoring the ADHD forum that a child with intelligence can do quite well in school until things like common denominators, etc  show up.  I do worry about her drop in grades and loss of self esteem - those things are often symptoms of something like ADHD.   You might want to check out this site on symptoms of ADHD and see what you think.
   http://www.rxlist.com/attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder_adhd/article.htm#tocb
    And if you do have any more questions on ADHD, I do monitor the ADHD forum.  And specialmom has a lot of experience with sensory integration if you have any questions on those lines.  Best wishes!

[stillamommasgrl]

It breaks my heart to hear you say you knew you were inferior to the other students.  Maybe you were different, but inferior, no.  The schools convince us that being different means being inferior and this mentality is what lowers self esteem.  I also felt this way in school because I was different, and now both of our children are going through the same thing.  I sometimes feel like I was reliving my own childhood with my son, except that this time I had a voice.  Why should your daughter, or any other child, have to find ways to cope with an unhealthy situation.  Maybe the time and energy should be put towards changing the environment these kids are in instead of trying to change the kids.  Your daughter should be able to speak out about things she sees as being wrong.  She sounds like a very intuitive child and a very caring one too.  Maybe she is trying to help the other children by standing up for what she feels is right.  Maybe she doesn't yet have the tools to do it in a way that is acceptable to the school, but at least she has the guts to do it.  The only thing she complains about is the noise.  She doesn't complain about the unfair treatment or the fact that the teachers refuse to accept her for who she is or the fact that she is shouldering the blame for things she cannot control.  My son behaved in a similar manner.  He never refused to go to school and to this day he "councils" my husband and me about trying not to be bitter about what happened.  He says it made him stronger and he learned a lot about people and himself during that time.  He says no one is perfect and all we can do is try to be better and be proud of the desire to become better people.  This  coming from a 14 year old.  He is 17 now, but told us those things at 14.  His teachers told us he had mental problems and they went from one extreme to the other.  I had a teacher ask me if I was afraid of my own son.  We were told that he couldn't possibly reason things out when he was in kindergarten when we knew he could.  He was our first child so we thought it was normal to be able to reason with a 4/5 year old.  You know your child better than any teacher or administrator does.  Don't let them bully you into anything you don't feel comfortable with.  Stand your ground and believe in your daughter, just like you have been doing.  You sound like a very caring mother and you sound like you know your child.  Trust in that, and trust your own intuition to tell you if something is wrong with her.  I don't know her, so I would never try to tell you what is going on inside her head.  From what you have said I don't see anything but a bright little girl asking for help to fix what is wrong in her school.  Being able to stand up for herself like she is will serve her well in the future and it shouldn't be taken away from her because some of the adults in her life don't want to hear it.  I could go on and on but don't want to risk falling off my soapbox again. :)
Please trust yourself and your daughter.  I don't regret doing the same with my son.  We get so much pleasure every time a teacher has to admit they were wrong about him, and some of them do.  I know it is hard to believe, but people can admit when they are wrong.  Our family looks forward to the day when our son is a huge success, in whatever he chooses to do, and he can go back and ask all of them what they were so worried about.  It is so hard to be a kid, but so many adults have forgotten that.  It sounds like you remember it well and because of that you will not give up on your daughter even when others try to convince you to.  She has the right to be who she is and you have the right to help her.  Again, I just have to say, trust yourself.  I am sending you strength and all the best of everything else you might need to get through this, but if it isn't enough let me know and I'll do what I can.  You are a good momma, and she's a good girl. Don't let the misguided opinions of others take that from you.

[specialmom]

There are allkinds of  different routes to take with our children and we all have the same goal in mind, to help them have happy lives.  It sounds like you've done a great job advocating for your child and I'm glad he is doing well.  We all must do what we feel in our hearts is in our kids' best interest.  It can be hard sometimes with so much thrown at you---  but I'm always thrilled to hear a success story of when a child struggled and comes out on the other end doing just fine.  so, good job.  

[RockRose]

I completely agree with the thought about Sensory Integration Disorder,  and I'm a little concerned about why your pediatrician was so cavalier about your daughter's struggles.

A good occupational therapist could give your daughter coping skills,  and help desensitize her to her intolerance of classroom noise and busyness.

Since your daughter is missing so much instructional time "decompressing" outside the classroom,  it's sad that it's taken until January for them to insist on help for her - and sad that your pediatrician didn't recognize a need for action on her part.

Best wishes.

[tiredbuthappy]

Just chiming in to agree with those who suggest you look in to sensory integration disorder. Your description definitely suggests it is a strong possibility.
I will also tell you that I am currently experiencing sensory problems. I can completely understand why kids with SID act out. She probably truly couldn't control her behavior in that environment, even if she wanted to. The good news is that if it is sensory issues, OT can make a world of a difference. I have seen it help every kid I know of that was diagnosed with SID.

Was her speech delay apraxia? Apraxia often seems to come with sensory issues (not all cases of course, but many).

[margypops]

I still agree with all you have said here I do not believe for one minute every child has a 'disorder ' we see so much of it on here , it maybe that there should be a' disorders forum" I do believe it allows parents to free them selves from feeling guilty, so lets get a label on everything ..go with your gut DSL ..you will be glad you did ..

[margypops]

The child behavior forum has turned into a sensory' disorder forum anyone interested not long ago it was really simply about kids with problems.... scroll down and see how many posts are now full of disorders particularly Sensory ..Look for your self ..maybe America is just full of children with disorders .and there is no other normal ,natural reason .And this is my opinion which I think we are allowed on Med Help.....

[margypops]

No not all the time in 4 years I have been here on this forum  most parents I have seen come for information about there childs behavior and now it has in fact become one of disorders ..add ADHD ,even though there is a forum for that , and recently 'non stop sensory disorder.' Members have only to scroll down to see ...well maybe Med help should change the catagory  ...Its not about information its about drilling into parents their children have something wrong with them ...most time they dont ...

[margypops]

Also if a normal answer is put forward about a childs behavior it has been shot down with a huge long diatribe about sensory disorder or adhd ..as I say folks look for your self .

[margypops]

I would go with the answer Annie posted  and also stillamommasgirl ..you specialmom also had some great input when you are not fixed on every child having sensory disorder..I am aware some do have I just dont think all have ..good luck ...

[Emily_MHManager]

Hi everyone -

All opinions are welcomed here, as long as they are respectful of others.  It is actually beneficial to members if they can hear varying opinions, as that will help them make an informed decision regarding a plan for evaluation, treatment, etc.

Please remember to keep them respectful and on topic.

Emily