Epilepsy, or something else?

[DeeaAndLulu]

I have a 6 mo. old Shar-pei puppy and we've come to find that she responds with a worrying behavior sometimes when she is picked up/ gets too excited/ does too much effort/ gets scared.  She becomes numb, like a toy, she cannot stand on her feet, she seems dizzy & usually pees immediately. She recovers in 1 minute or less.

We have done EKG and nothing unusual showed up. Our veterinary said that she might have epilepsy. I am not convinced by this answer because I know epilepsy provokes muscle tension. She experiences quite the opposite.

She sometimes also gets out half a yelp, or cry when this happens.

What else could it be? What tests would you suggest we do?

[tonyb286]

Hi. Okay. It's great the information you have given. Thanks for writing all that out - it must have taken you ages to copy it. First and foremost, ANY vet that says 'nothing you can do' or fails to discuss things with you is no good ... so yes, look for another vet and see what they say. In any event, I think a second opinion is a good thing, because all vets are slightly different, have different experiences, knowledge, etc., so maybe another vet will offer better advice, better treatment suggestions and be more customer orientated.

I am not familiar with how things are in Romania, but it sounds as if it may be very different to how things generally are in the UK. The Mecopar definitely has me concerned, because I can only find links with this to weed killer (herbicidal) or rare human interventions and there is no information about it at all on the internet that relates it to canine treatment. It could be a drug that is named differently elsewhere, but I would have thought there would be something somewhere that explains it's use. I suspect another vet may well suggest stopping this as a treatment - so it will be interesting to hear what they have to say. Amongst the ingredients are a whole batch of E numbers and colourants, which may well give rise to additional seizures (most dogs are allergic to these kinds of things).

In the Excipients list ... there are things here that a dog can be allergic too. I have mentioned the colourants, but also corn and lactose. The castor oil may well make your dog have loose stools and is not the best oil for canine digestive tracts. It looks to me as if this is basically a supplement, offering no real benefit or treatment of your dog's condition.

As said previously, the phenobarbital is being employed short-term, which is a bit pointless. It may do the job of knocking her out, thus quelling the anxiety and excitement (and thereby prevent seizures or at least make them less severe), but it's not the way forward. The diagnosis needs to be thorough and then a proper treatment can be given.

Human foods can be okay ... but you really do have to be cautious, because human foods sometimes contain bad things for dogs. Have a read of my article here:

http://www.infobarrel.com/Everyday_Foods_That_Are_Poisonous_To_Dogs

If you are feeding anything on that list, it could be causing the seizures to occur.

If I am right, Biomill is a dry dog food. I hate dry dog foods - please read my article here to find out why:

http://www.infobarrel.com/Why_Dry_Dog_Food_Is_Bad_For_Dogs

To find something much better, have a look at this site: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/

The Dog Food Advisor site lists almost all dog foods sold and puts them into various categories. Try to find a 4 or 5 star product that is available in Romania.

There's a lot of information there for you. Once you have managed to get through it all and have read the articles, come back and ask questions you may have. I am tending to think the seizures could be genetic (so may be a neurological tumor in the brain) or of course it could also be true epilepsy - or they could be caused through toxemia due to food allergies or other constituent reactions. The latter is easier to deal with, so it is worth getting the diet right to see if it makes a difference. If it proves that's not the problem, then treating the seizures as epileptic seizures is the next best option, but treating it properly and not ad-hoc as seems to be happening now.

Hope this helps. I should add, I am not a vet, so please realize the suggestions given are based purely on knowledge gained over many years working with dogs and on the MedHelp site (I run the Chronic Kidney Failure in Dogs User Group).

Best wishes,

Tony

[DeeaAndLulu]

This is exactly what I thought regarding the 3 days drug treatment.

Regarding the feeding, we've changed her diet many times because she doesn't like to eat solid dog food, probably because at one point we had extra food and instead of throwing it out I gave it to her. She enjoys human food much more, but I am trying to get her out of this habit.

We fed her: Pedigree, Bosch and now Biomill. Bosch was something for sensitive stomach, as the Pedigree left her very gassy and I thought she might need something 'cleaner'. Rarely she will get some cooked meat, rice or a carrot. We give her dog biscuits and those white bones to chew on every now and then.

Regarding Mecopar, this is the right name in Romania, but I don't know the equivalent in English. I translated the composition (maybe it won't be 100% accurate, but you'll be able to make an idea):

A capsule contains:
Essential amino acids: dl-methionine 9.2 mg, 9.15 mg l-leucine, l-valine 5 mg, 5 mg l-isoleucine, L-threonine, 5 mg, 5 mg l-tryptophan, L-phenylalanine 5 mg, lysine hydrochloride 25 mg;

Vitamins: vitamin A palmitate (vitamin A) 1000 IU ergocalciferol (vitamin D) 100 IU tocopherol acetate (vitamin E) 5 mg of thiamine nitrate (2.5 mg vitamin **, riboflavin (vitamin B2) 1.5 mg nicotinamide (vitamin PP) 10 mg pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin ** 5 mg, 2.5 mg calcium pantothenate, cyanocobalamin (vitamin ** 0.5 mcg folic acid 0.1 mg, ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) 25 mg;

Excipients: lactose, corn starch, sucrose, gelatin, hydroxypropyl cellulose, polyethylene glycol, povidone, castor oil, yellow no. 5 (E102), red no. 3 (E127), blue no. 1 (E133), yellow no. 203 (E104), red no. 40 (E129).

He is a qualified vet from what I know, he's definitely not a herbalist/holistic practitioner. The problem is that here in Romania pet medical problems aren't treated as seriously as human medical problems..

I really would have liked to be able to discuss treatment with my vet and get him to explain it to me, but whenever I ask something he's kind of saying: "nothing you can do about it" and that's it...

Yesterday after I gave her the second dose of 1/4 of Phenobarbital she had another seizure while not even moving..She was standing in sit, then I saw her wanting to get up and she wobbled, hit the near-by wall and then I caught her and held her for 5 seconds. She peed a bit, and then she got back on her feet.. That and the state she was in because of the drug scared the living hell out of me. It was the first time I thought that she might just have something else, like a tumor or something and she might not make it for long... I went to ask the vet what to do about what happened, but he kept saying: nothing you can do about it..

Do you think we should try another vet?

By the way..another concerning issue is the fact that up until a month ago the seizures would happen like once a month maybe..This month I think they happened at least 5-6 times and twice they were on consecutive days..

[tonyb286]

Hi. I have never known phenobarbital to be used in this way. Short-term treatment (in your case for the three days) is a somewhat pointless decision, unless your vet has read something I haven't seen. Phenobarbital can be used short-term, but usually only for anxiety (certainly in your case this would be the most likely reason), but there are lots of other drugs that do as good a job without the side-effects. Short-term use can also be used in insomnia, where a dog simply doesn't sleep for days and needs to rest.

The problem you will have is the side-effects. When used short-term, the phenobarbital is doing what is expected of it - completely knocking her out - but this isn't really what your best friend needs. And because it's only being applied short-term, the side effects and doping aspect will all happen each and every time you use it.

There is also some concern about the liver. All drugs impact on the liver to one degree or another, but some more than others, and phenobarbital will certainly not help the already identified liver issue. It will also impact on the kidneys, where the drug's toxin waste products will be flushed through.

I think the vomiting is directly linked to her anxiety and (probably) mild epilepsy. Get the latter under some kind of control, and the vomiting should cease.

I am a little concerned about what you may be feeding, because this can also directly influence seizures. Can you list all the things you give her on a daily basis - brand names, manufacturer and (if scraps) what kind of human foods, treats, etc.

Can you double-check the spelling of Mecopar .... if it's what I think it is, I am concerned about the vet that prescribed this and the reasons for prescribing it.

Liv52 has shown some benefits in liver cirrhosis, however this would definitely not be a first choice or only choice by most vets.

Silymarin is basically milk-thistle, with some advantageous properties.

My concern is that none of these are treatments many professional vets would suggest, as some are pure herbalistic style supplements, rather than positive and scientifically tested medicines.

Is your vet a qualified and experienced vet or a herbalist/holistic practitioner?

Tony

[DeeaAndLulu]

The seizures now happen much more easily. For example 10 seconds of intense running/excitement will trigger it. She'll lose control of her legs and faint for about 5-10 seconds, then she's back to normal.

We had some bloodwork done and apparently nothing came up except liver issues. We are on Liv52, silymarin and Mecopar (I don't know the correct translation in English, but basically liver protectors). Since we did not find any other indication, we assumed that the seizures are epileptic. The doctor put us on 3 days of Phenobarbital every time a seizure happens.

Yesterday she had her first seizure since the vet visit. We began with phenobarbital and after her first quarter of a pill today she could barely get up to greet me in the morning. She's half-way lifeless probably because of the sedative effect.

It kills me to see her like that...

I was wondering.....will this partial treatment help with making the seizures less frequent? She'll definitely not have a seizure while being on phenobarbital, as she is so sleepy..But what after the 3 days of treatment?..

[DeeaAndLulu]

Thanks, Tony.

You are correct, these happen more frequently on excitement. For example once it was when we returned home after being away for several hours and I picked her up and one of the episodes happened. Again when someone came over to our apartment, she became very excited and I picked her a bit off the ground to calm her down.

She doesn't eat very well also..She doesn't really like to eat solid dog food. I think for cooked food or scraps she would have the biggest appetite, but I don't have enough knowledge regarding dog diets to cook for her separately. Plus it would be inconvenient for when we travel. I am also taking this into consideration..maybe because she doesn't eat well she has some deficiency?.. She also throws up a little yellow foam in the morning once every few weeks when it happens to not have time to check if she ate all her food in the evening. I understand that is gastric acid, so I believe she sometimes doesn't eat enough..

I will be monitoring her and I really hope it turns out to be something else..something curable. Epilepsy is heartbreaking and also she's such a beautiful Shar-pei that I would really want her to take her genes forward..

[tonyb286]

Hi. Epilepsy comes in many shapes and sizes and strengths ... so it is still possible this is a petit mal fit, where a dog will go disorientated, limp and out-of-it for a few seconds or minutes. This type of seizure is often brought on through excitement, so be aware of this and avoid it if possible. There is also the possibility this is pure anxiety. Some dogs do develop extreme anxiety when they are at their happiest. I would keep a diary over the next month, making notes of any behaviour you find suspicious. If the episodes increase or become stronger, then there's every chance this is a form of epilepsy. This could also be genetic, caused through diet, mild toxemia and/or another potential primary condition, such as a neurological tumor.

There are tests, but for now, I would monitor it and raise it with your vet in a month's time, once you have some history of symptoms recorded.

Tony