Aa
melatonin as an antifibrotic
I don't know when I first read of Melatonin's benefits to the liver.
It was about when HR was explaining liver funtions that I went reading and discovered that the reason HCV people didn't sleep well was due to not enough HGH from the pituitary and not enough melatonin from the liver whih leads to poor sleep, tongue swelling and sleep apneas.
Anyway I was already on HGH and added melatonin to my regime.
However, here' another study suggesting that melatonin is an antioxidant and reduced fibrosis and several key oxidative markers in rats. Ergo it should help us as well.....with more than just sleep.
apologies if someone already posted this study, I've not been around much lately.
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/15/1452.asp
It was about when HR was explaining liver funtions that I went reading and discovered that the reason HCV people didn't sleep well was due to not enough HGH from the pituitary and not enough melatonin from the liver whih leads to poor sleep, tongue swelling and sleep apneas.
Anyway I was already on HGH and added melatonin to my regime.
However, here' another study suggesting that melatonin is an antioxidant and reduced fibrosis and several key oxidative markers in rats. Ergo it should help us as well.....with more than just sleep.
apologies if someone already posted this study, I've not been around much lately.
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/15/1452.asp
Matt,
the main issue with MEL was back when it was being synthesized as plain old tryptophan, and we ended up with one bad batch from the japanese which put a lot of people off of it. The way it is synthesize now is more safe and stable, and if you stick with a good supplier you'll be fine. Her's where quality control and testing can make a difference.
It's true you can get it from some foods, but not in sufficient amounts, especially in late stage liver disease. Remember in late stages you'll be walking around with the liver of a ten year old, or a 7 year old, and on down...and still carrying your big adult body with all it's requirements.
At this stage you'd be better off to use the MEL tablets because rest is crucial to fighting this disease and your liver cannot process all it's food correctly nor can in conjugate enough into the usable form (Mel6) even if the pineal is sending enough Mel down to the liver, because it still has to be processed into the usable form before it works and absent enough liver cells, and P450 cytochromes to process etc, that will not happen.
The issue is two fold really, 1. every drug or herb used, food too for that matter, you take in uses up cytochromes, the iron rich proteins responsible for enzymatic changes to compounds entering the system. 2. How best to balance the intake to match the system requirements.
If the system is compromised you have less available bandwidth so to speak.
It then becomes more advantageous to find out which drugs can interact and or overwhelm the system. For instance too many drugs on one cytochrome may cause an overload. Kind of like what happens if you have too many word docs open at the same time, or explorer windows, eventually it slows down the system to a crawl, right? well the same is true of your liver,,,too many things on one cytochrome can lead to allergic reaction, on another cytochrome it causes liver cancer, free radical to form, if you overwhelm it. We got into this somewhat on my P450 thread...if you'd care to read it, I can provide more references for those interested but it's pretty darn complex and not for everybody. Wish sometimes I could do it the simple way and just "take this cause it's good for ya"...but I've learned the hard way and seen others suffer from that enough to have to do it the other way now.
mb
the main issue with MEL was back when it was being synthesized as plain old tryptophan, and we ended up with one bad batch from the japanese which put a lot of people off of it. The way it is synthesize now is more safe and stable, and if you stick with a good supplier you'll be fine. Her's where quality control and testing can make a difference.
It's true you can get it from some foods, but not in sufficient amounts, especially in late stage liver disease. Remember in late stages you'll be walking around with the liver of a ten year old, or a 7 year old, and on down...and still carrying your big adult body with all it's requirements.
At this stage you'd be better off to use the MEL tablets because rest is crucial to fighting this disease and your liver cannot process all it's food correctly nor can in conjugate enough into the usable form (Mel6) even if the pineal is sending enough Mel down to the liver, because it still has to be processed into the usable form before it works and absent enough liver cells, and P450 cytochromes to process etc, that will not happen.
The issue is two fold really, 1. every drug or herb used, food too for that matter, you take in uses up cytochromes, the iron rich proteins responsible for enzymatic changes to compounds entering the system. 2. How best to balance the intake to match the system requirements.
If the system is compromised you have less available bandwidth so to speak.
It then becomes more advantageous to find out which drugs can interact and or overwhelm the system. For instance too many drugs on one cytochrome may cause an overload. Kind of like what happens if you have too many word docs open at the same time, or explorer windows, eventually it slows down the system to a crawl, right? well the same is true of your liver,,,too many things on one cytochrome can lead to allergic reaction, on another cytochrome it causes liver cancer, free radical to form, if you overwhelm it. We got into this somewhat on my P450 thread...if you'd care to read it, I can provide more references for those interested but it's pretty darn complex and not for everybody. Wish sometimes I could do it the simple way and just "take this cause it's good for ya"...but I've learned the hard way and seen others suffer from that enough to have to do it the other way now.
mb
Rocker, yes, I am adding things slowly, but I feel like I have to plow through a host of research before doing so. Otherwise I may be solving for one issue and creating another.
Mainly my issue is that we must look at ALL the facts...for instance some herbs lower cholesterol, not good if ours is already low as liver people sometime arethen too, some things, such as capsaisin (pepper) can irritate the bowel causing leaky gut, it works as an antiinflammatory BECAUSE it causes inflammation, and ergo a stronger response TO the inflammation in theory produces a stronger antiinflammatory response, however this can backfire with a compromised liver.
Both the liver and the gut may be unable to handle such a drastic compound.
Same with mushroom therapy, it counter intuitive. Some mushrooms create an immune response (some go so far as to shut down the liver permanently). My issue is why risk that the body will muster when you know the liver is limping along at best.
Years ago a doc gave me this analogy for my anaphylaxic incidents... and it's a good one. Say you have a bath tub...and you turn on one spiget to fill the tub. The tub fills slowly, and doesn't overflo.....but turn on ten or 20 spigets, and the tub overflo's pronto. Same with drug, herbs and the liver. All foods, all herbs, all drinks are also drugs of a sort...they all deliver molecules, some very powerful. The trick is to pick the molecules that will do the least harm, and overwhelming while simultaneously trying to improve immune response and lessen cell death and inflammation.
And with the oils you must watch for rancidity.
I've had conversations with Life Extension site about this and would trust them over most providers due to their storage practices and their high turnover, but with oils getting the cheapest source may mean more rancidity issues which is death to a bad liver.
So as I said before, run things through the pub med and Mayo clinic filters and don't just assume what works on a stage one liver will work the same on a stage 4 liver.
The idea should be to do things fully informed, not just taking the word of some vitamin saleman's research. Take into account your stage of disease also...sometimes every possible helper is not wisdom just because you can overwhelm the system.
also realize this, many herbs can interfere with the Rx's we are on.
One really needs to do their homework here. Google your drugs with the herbs you plan on adding and see what comes up. Also google your conditions with the herbs.
Herbs are DRUGS too..just in less refine forms.
Example: a guy last week takes vinegar and baking soda, he has liver disease...what's wrong with that picture? Just because some health food site said do it doesn't make it wisdom. STUDY...or pay a price.
Honestly, I think some people do more research on their phone or their car than they do before adding a drug or herb to their regime. This is just wrong...you can't always undo bad health choices so a little caution is in order here, big time.
Not saying this is your MO...just hoping a few folks think about it.
I'm definitely not against all natural remedies, quite the opposite...I could quote Adel Davis and Durk Parson and Sandy Shaw before you were born and have hardbound first editions of all their works....but that does not mean we shouldn't follow the science and make darn sure it is sound. Over time many supplements have been proven to be unabsorbable, or to imbalance the system is not given in concert with their normally occuring cousins (ex: cal/mag/vitA/vitD) right proportion nessesary for absorption) so once must be vigilant to be knowing what works and what does not.
I cut my teeth on learning about all that stuff but am having to revisit the science since mine has grown rusty.
mb
Mainly my issue is that we must look at ALL the facts...for instance some herbs lower cholesterol, not good if ours is already low as liver people sometime arethen too, some things, such as capsaisin (pepper) can irritate the bowel causing leaky gut, it works as an antiinflammatory BECAUSE it causes inflammation, and ergo a stronger response TO the inflammation in theory produces a stronger antiinflammatory response, however this can backfire with a compromised liver.
Both the liver and the gut may be unable to handle such a drastic compound.
Same with mushroom therapy, it counter intuitive. Some mushrooms create an immune response (some go so far as to shut down the liver permanently). My issue is why risk that the body will muster when you know the liver is limping along at best.
Years ago a doc gave me this analogy for my anaphylaxic incidents... and it's a good one. Say you have a bath tub...and you turn on one spiget to fill the tub. The tub fills slowly, and doesn't overflo.....but turn on ten or 20 spigets, and the tub overflo's pronto. Same with drug, herbs and the liver. All foods, all herbs, all drinks are also drugs of a sort...they all deliver molecules, some very powerful. The trick is to pick the molecules that will do the least harm, and overwhelming while simultaneously trying to improve immune response and lessen cell death and inflammation.
And with the oils you must watch for rancidity.
I've had conversations with Life Extension site about this and would trust them over most providers due to their storage practices and their high turnover, but with oils getting the cheapest source may mean more rancidity issues which is death to a bad liver.
So as I said before, run things through the pub med and Mayo clinic filters and don't just assume what works on a stage one liver will work the same on a stage 4 liver.
The idea should be to do things fully informed, not just taking the word of some vitamin saleman's research. Take into account your stage of disease also...sometimes every possible helper is not wisdom just because you can overwhelm the system.
also realize this, many herbs can interfere with the Rx's we are on.
One really needs to do their homework here. Google your drugs with the herbs you plan on adding and see what comes up. Also google your conditions with the herbs.
Herbs are DRUGS too..just in less refine forms.
Example: a guy last week takes vinegar and baking soda, he has liver disease...what's wrong with that picture? Just because some health food site said do it doesn't make it wisdom. STUDY...or pay a price.
Honestly, I think some people do more research on their phone or their car than they do before adding a drug or herb to their regime. This is just wrong...you can't always undo bad health choices so a little caution is in order here, big time.
Not saying this is your MO...just hoping a few folks think about it.
I'm definitely not against all natural remedies, quite the opposite...I could quote Adel Davis and Durk Parson and Sandy Shaw before you were born and have hardbound first editions of all their works....but that does not mean we shouldn't follow the science and make darn sure it is sound. Over time many supplements have been proven to be unabsorbable, or to imbalance the system is not given in concert with their normally occuring cousins (ex: cal/mag/vitA/vitD) right proportion nessesary for absorption) so once must be vigilant to be knowing what works and what does not.
I cut my teeth on learning about all that stuff but am having to revisit the science since mine has grown rusty.
mb
You can also get small amounts of Melatonin naturally from things like Apples, Ginger Root, Rice, Tomatoes, Bananas, Pineapples, Oranges, Strawberries, Kiwi, Spinach, etc.
The synthetic version contained in pill form has some side-effects. Whereas the plant-based version does not.
The synthetic version contained in pill form has some side-effects. Whereas the plant-based version does not.
I guess you are taking other superfoods as weel?...have you checked out medicinal mushrooms and other stuff...im betting you have...how bout LDN?
Update on the melatonin connections. I've upped my dose to 2 mg. and plan to go to 3 soon.
this has allowed me to correct my clock reversal (sleeping days not nights) which is a common problem in late stage liver disease caused by the liver not conjugating as well as well as a slowed secrection from most of the endocrine system.
I have no halved my sleep meds, and am able to fall asleep within 30 minutes, unlike before the mel, when even on 12. mg Ambien CR I would still be up all night.
So this is really working for me. It also aides inflammation, and here's a good article about how it is VERY preventative for both
preventing LIVER CANCER,
and recovering from SURGERIES.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248566/
mb
this has allowed me to correct my clock reversal (sleeping days not nights) which is a common problem in late stage liver disease caused by the liver not conjugating as well as well as a slowed secrection from most of the endocrine system.
I have no halved my sleep meds, and am able to fall asleep within 30 minutes, unlike before the mel, when even on 12. mg Ambien CR I would still be up all night.
So this is really working for me. It also aides inflammation, and here's a good article about how it is VERY preventative for both
preventing LIVER CANCER,
and recovering from SURGERIES.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248566/
mb
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