Aa
melatonin as an antifibrotic
I don't know when I first read of Melatonin's benefits to the liver.
It was about when HR was explaining liver funtions that I went reading and discovered that the reason HCV people didn't sleep well was due to not enough HGH from the pituitary and not enough melatonin from the liver whih leads to poor sleep, tongue swelling and sleep apneas.
Anyway I was already on HGH and added melatonin to my regime.
However, here' another study suggesting that melatonin is an antioxidant and reduced fibrosis and several key oxidative markers in rats. Ergo it should help us as well.....with more than just sleep.
apologies if someone already posted this study, I've not been around much lately.
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/15/1452.asp
It was about when HR was explaining liver funtions that I went reading and discovered that the reason HCV people didn't sleep well was due to not enough HGH from the pituitary and not enough melatonin from the liver whih leads to poor sleep, tongue swelling and sleep apneas.
Anyway I was already on HGH and added melatonin to my regime.
However, here' another study suggesting that melatonin is an antioxidant and reduced fibrosis and several key oxidative markers in rats. Ergo it should help us as well.....with more than just sleep.
apologies if someone already posted this study, I've not been around much lately.
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/15/1452.asp
sorry, I get my wbc and platlets mixed up sometimes...not sure why. If I start mistaking my HGH for TSH or hgb for hematotit take me to the woodshed by all means!! But seriously, I shouldn't read when I'm tired as too often it proves my undoing.
at least it helps his platelets, lets look at the bright side. But neupo remains safe, oh darn.
As to the melatonin however, I remember when this was first discovered..at that time the less refined L-tryptophan was in use. (Until Japan gave us one bad batch and the FDA banned it.
But the research was done long ago, and so Goofy you are right and wrong simultaneously there.
The Pineal makes it true, but so does the intestines, eyeballs skin and more, but they make MEL in a nonuasable form, and it has to be conjugated in the liver before it gets used, as do many hormones. \
MEL is converted to 6-HMEL and further a sulfate is added..then it does it's number and is expelled by the kidneys.
There are a whole lot of hormones that strictly speaking originate in the pineal or pituitary but are really reliant on the liver's metabolic effects before they have any actual effects on the body.
Ergo in essense unless the liver "makes" it...conjugates it into a usable form by adding the appropriate isotopes, then it's no go. So the liver really does make the final product.
Because with liver disease the ability to conjugate, to convert hormonal chemical signals into usable products, is diminished I think the idea of supplementation of known essentials such as Sam-e, melatonin, even cholesterol in some cases, makes a lot of sense.
I did check out some studies on P450 and how melatonin is broken down,( I do that for all my meds and vitamins now)...which were interesting but not something everyone will appreciate. It was encouaging to see that melatonin has been classified as a freeradical scavenger...although the mehanisms are not well undestood..my keyboard is fried, 2 keys are going bye bye.. orry..
mb
at least it helps his platelets, lets look at the bright side. But neupo remains safe, oh darn.
As to the melatonin however, I remember when this was first discovered..at that time the less refined L-tryptophan was in use. (Until Japan gave us one bad batch and the FDA banned it.
But the research was done long ago, and so Goofy you are right and wrong simultaneously there.
The Pineal makes it true, but so does the intestines, eyeballs skin and more, but they make MEL in a nonuasable form, and it has to be conjugated in the liver before it gets used, as do many hormones. \
MEL is converted to 6-HMEL and further a sulfate is added..then it does it's number and is expelled by the kidneys.
There are a whole lot of hormones that strictly speaking originate in the pineal or pituitary but are really reliant on the liver's metabolic effects before they have any actual effects on the body.
Ergo in essense unless the liver "makes" it...conjugates it into a usable form by adding the appropriate isotopes, then it's no go. So the liver really does make the final product.
Because with liver disease the ability to conjugate, to convert hormonal chemical signals into usable products, is diminished I think the idea of supplementation of known essentials such as Sam-e, melatonin, even cholesterol in some cases, makes a lot of sense.
I did check out some studies on P450 and how melatonin is broken down,( I do that for all my meds and vitamins now)...which were interesting but not something everyone will appreciate. It was encouaging to see that melatonin has been classified as a freeradical scavenger...although the mehanisms are not well undestood..my keyboard is fried, 2 keys are going bye bye.. orry..
mb
Merry: To use the exact substance the liver normally makes to help us sleep seems a vastly safer alternative than to use prescription sleep meds given all their contraindications and side effects.
Me: I believe melatonin is primarily produced by the pineal gland and cleared by the liver.
-------------------------------
Merry: Ergo the jump in platelets means his sleep was deeper so his pituitary output of Human Growth Hormone went up...hence more new blood was made.
Me: That seems like an awfully long ergo-jump to me... platelet counts are notorious for floating up and down throughout tx. Actually a whole string of jumps as neccessary to connect melatonin to REM to HGH to increased platelet production.
---------------------------------------
Merry: You know, this stuff could give neupo a run for it's money, if medicine ever ferrets it out.
Me: Huh?
--------------------------------------
Still, given that melatonin is generally regarded as safe (GRAS) and has demonstrated ability to mitigate fibrosis leading to cirrhosis (albeit in rats) , a little bit seems like a reasonable approach to me....
Me: I believe melatonin is primarily produced by the pineal gland and cleared by the liver.
-------------------------------
Merry: Ergo the jump in platelets means his sleep was deeper so his pituitary output of Human Growth Hormone went up...hence more new blood was made.
Me: That seems like an awfully long ergo-jump to me... platelet counts are notorious for floating up and down throughout tx. Actually a whole string of jumps as neccessary to connect melatonin to REM to HGH to increased platelet production.
---------------------------------------
Merry: You know, this stuff could give neupo a run for it's money, if medicine ever ferrets it out.
Me: Huh?
--------------------------------------
Still, given that melatonin is generally regarded as safe (GRAS) and has demonstrated ability to mitigate fibrosis leading to cirrhosis (albeit in rats) , a little bit seems like a reasonable approach to me....
Joe's white count and neutophil percent has remained low. Only his platelets went up. Joe has needed lots of procrit for hgb but so far has avoided needing Neupogen. His ANC went down to 167.5 a week ago and the Dr. had him repeat his cbc to see if it was a fluke because it dropped abnormally fast after being low but stable all year long on tx. Sure enopugh they were right. We repeated the blood work and everything came back better this time so still no Neupogen needed. Joe had a staff infection and was taking Bactrim for it when the 1st cbc was run so maybe that had caused the sudden change. His hemoglobin had gone from 8.6 up to 9.5 in that week which was also interesting. 9.5 is really, really good for Joe. On may 27th it was 7.2 and he had to have a blood tranfusion.September of 2008 was the last time Joe has been up to 9.5! He has been on treatment since June 1st 2008. I don't know what caused the increase but he feels a lot better right now and I'm just saying thank you prayers.
Ev
Ev
I was not born under a rock. I know why rats are used in science. My point is that just because melatonin helped with fibrosis in rats, does not mean it will help in humans. And I stand by that. there have been too many meds that looked good in rats, but ended up hurting humans. If I remember correctly BILN was one of them. Melatonin for sleep is allowed by my gastro also. Melatonin for sleep aid is not a new thing.
thank you for running that by your Hepatologist-it bolsters my confidence in my new one.
Jenny
the reason rats are used so much in lab experimentation is because their responses are the closest biologically of all the small animals. We could use apes, the closest to us genetically, but it is very spendy and we would have no where near the info doing it that way.
However of all the critters that are cheap and plentiful rat metabolism is closest to our own. Not an exact match mind you....they do clear some drugs faster or slower than we do, depending on the drug. But rats are invaluable to see if a substance is harming or helping organs, or helping one at the expense of another. Part of the reasoning behind higher dosing is to also assess the toxicology, or what if anything happens with too much of a substance.
I'm grateful personally, that a whole lot of rats are given drugs before they reach Phase I human trials.
Obviously if someone is a kidney, or liver patient one has to carefully assess any food or drug one takes. With kidney dysfunction vitamin C, caffiene, protein and much much more must be curtailed. That does not mean however that we at risk taking any and every product. Both foods, herbs, and RX's all need scrutiny based on ones own state of health.
Certainly if your kidneys have limited clearance capacity then the dosing of many medications needs to be adjusted accordingly.
Frank,
I ran this by my Hepatologist as well, and he was fine with it.
It's good to at last see some doctors taking an active role in acknowledging that some non-drug company products have significant value. To use the exact substance the liver normally makes to help us sleep seems a vastly safer alternative than to use prescription sleep meds given all their contraindications and side effects.
Evangeline,
the more I think about this the more
I'm really impressed with Joe's platelet changes.
It's very reasonable to assume the melatonin could achieve this since it allows for deeper sleep. The body doesn't release Growth hormone until one gets to stage 3, and primarily stage 4 sleep. Then the pituitary sends the signal to replace old cells, and make new blood. It only releases this for a few seconds each night, and minut amounts daytime.
If one doesn't get down into that short lived but very deep REM stage 4 sleep, then much less cell replacement goes on due to this design.
Ergo the jump in platelets means his sleep was deeper so his pituitary output of Human Growth Hormone went up...hence more new blood was made.
You know, this stuff could give neupo a run for it's money, if medicine ever ferrets it out.
If I was an unscrupulous drug company, (and some are while some are not)...but if I were one I'd be setting up fake websites to warn people away and tell them how dangerous melatonin is...after all, they are selling neupogen for several THOUSAND a month. If an over the counter product costing 10 bucks can do things just as well....then they really have trouble at their door.
mb
the reason rats are used so much in lab experimentation is because their responses are the closest biologically of all the small animals. We could use apes, the closest to us genetically, but it is very spendy and we would have no where near the info doing it that way.
However of all the critters that are cheap and plentiful rat metabolism is closest to our own. Not an exact match mind you....they do clear some drugs faster or slower than we do, depending on the drug. But rats are invaluable to see if a substance is harming or helping organs, or helping one at the expense of another. Part of the reasoning behind higher dosing is to also assess the toxicology, or what if anything happens with too much of a substance.
I'm grateful personally, that a whole lot of rats are given drugs before they reach Phase I human trials.
Obviously if someone is a kidney, or liver patient one has to carefully assess any food or drug one takes. With kidney dysfunction vitamin C, caffiene, protein and much much more must be curtailed. That does not mean however that we at risk taking any and every product. Both foods, herbs, and RX's all need scrutiny based on ones own state of health.
Certainly if your kidneys have limited clearance capacity then the dosing of many medications needs to be adjusted accordingly.
Frank,
I ran this by my Hepatologist as well, and he was fine with it.
It's good to at last see some doctors taking an active role in acknowledging that some non-drug company products have significant value. To use the exact substance the liver normally makes to help us sleep seems a vastly safer alternative than to use prescription sleep meds given all their contraindications and side effects.
Evangeline,
the more I think about this the more
I'm really impressed with Joe's platelet changes.
It's very reasonable to assume the melatonin could achieve this since it allows for deeper sleep. The body doesn't release Growth hormone until one gets to stage 3, and primarily stage 4 sleep. Then the pituitary sends the signal to replace old cells, and make new blood. It only releases this for a few seconds each night, and minut amounts daytime.
If one doesn't get down into that short lived but very deep REM stage 4 sleep, then much less cell replacement goes on due to this design.
Ergo the jump in platelets means his sleep was deeper so his pituitary output of Human Growth Hormone went up...hence more new blood was made.
You know, this stuff could give neupo a run for it's money, if medicine ever ferrets it out.
If I was an unscrupulous drug company, (and some are while some are not)...but if I were one I'd be setting up fake websites to warn people away and tell them how dangerous melatonin is...after all, they are selling neupogen for several THOUSAND a month. If an over the counter product costing 10 bucks can do things just as well....then they really have trouble at their door.
mb
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