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How severe and when does herxing starts on Doxy 400 mg/day?
Hope everyone feels better today and everyday :-)
Saw my LLMD in Bethesda, MD on 5/4. Definitely have Lyme. For long time. Igenex IgG and IgM positive for Igenex and CDC.
Starting on 5/7 Doxy 400 mg a day for 60 days along with keeping up my herbal Buhner protocol, probiotics, supplements, and keeping my adrenal support protocol too (have severe adrenal exhaustion too). I timed that it takes me 10 min and 4 glasses of water to take it all.
I'm SOOOOO petrified of herx reaction. Doctor says that having really bad one is good, it means bacteria is dying off. Having some medical education (went to med school for 2 years) is not helping, as I know enough to know it will be bad. Have been reading many posts here ( and thanks to JackieCalifornia who reposted Wonko's post about good and bad days, it was very reassuring).
So here is my question. While I understand that everyone is unique with their reactions according to their own physiology and biology and progression of disease I'm wondering if there is some general timeline that it is true for most as to when the herx happens after starting treatment. 2 days? week? I read that most experience herx in cycles. Have women here noticed if herx cycle coincides with their period? I choose to start on Friday, so that I can be home if I start herxing on weekend. Sigh....
Saw my LLMD in Bethesda, MD on 5/4. Definitely have Lyme. For long time. Igenex IgG and IgM positive for Igenex and CDC.
Starting on 5/7 Doxy 400 mg a day for 60 days along with keeping up my herbal Buhner protocol, probiotics, supplements, and keeping my adrenal support protocol too (have severe adrenal exhaustion too). I timed that it takes me 10 min and 4 glasses of water to take it all.
I'm SOOOOO petrified of herx reaction. Doctor says that having really bad one is good, it means bacteria is dying off. Having some medical education (went to med school for 2 years) is not helping, as I know enough to know it will be bad. Have been reading many posts here ( and thanks to JackieCalifornia who reposted Wonko's post about good and bad days, it was very reassuring).
So here is my question. While I understand that everyone is unique with their reactions according to their own physiology and biology and progression of disease I'm wondering if there is some general timeline that it is true for most as to when the herx happens after starting treatment. 2 days? week? I read that most experience herx in cycles. Have women here noticed if herx cycle coincides with their period? I choose to start on Friday, so that I can be home if I start herxing on weekend. Sigh....
Greetings --
Glad to hear you found a Lyme doc! That sounds like some pretty sizeable doses you are taking, and you may indeed be Herxing. Have you talked with your doc about backing off a bit on the meds to lessen the Herxing? Everyone seems to be a bit different in how they react to different meds, and Lyme docs are different in their approaches to which meds and at what doses when. For example, some docs pound away at the bugs with the same daily dose of one or several meds for several months, then switch to different meds for more months. Other docs 'pulse' meds, taking breaks along the way and switching up the meds in various combos.
I have not read any single source that discusses the different antibiotics and which ones are used for what reasons, so it's quite obscure to me.
Nevertheless, have you talked with your doc about the side effects you are having? I would not hesitate to call and ask for an appointment, or tell the nurse/whoever the reaction you are having and what can be done to reduce the side effects. That's a reasonable thing to do. Herxes can be bad enough to have to go off meds for a while, so I wouldn't suffer in silence. Your doc needs to know.
To your broader question about whether most Lyme patients get better, I don't have a sense of the actual statistics, but I do believe that many if not most of us improve with the right treatment (depending on co-infections and on personal body chemistry, in my understanding), and a substantial number are considered cured, or at least so close to cured that it feels like one.
It is true that it takes quite a while to begin to feel better. I have read (and been told by my current doc) that it is like peeling the layers of an onion ... one at a time, slowly rebuilding the immune system and slowly stripping away the slimy protective shields the Lyme bacteria construct for themselves so the meds can kill them.
One reason it takes so long to treat is (so I read) that Lyme bacteria have an exceptionally slow reproductive cycle, and it is while reproducing that bacteria are most susceptible to the meds. Non-LLMDs do not seem to acknowledge this aspect of Lyme, yet there are other bacteria which have the same characteristic, such as the bacteria causing tuberculosis and also Hansen's disease (leprosy). Standard treatment for TB has long been 18 months of antibiotics (altho that has been shortened recently due to newer meds), and nobody flinches at that, but treat Lyme for longer than a few weeks? No way! Phooey.
So for several reasons, treating and recovering from Lyme is a long road, but one well worth the journey. I believe that I had a low-level case of Lyme for several years, and then got another infection on top of the existing one (Lyme again and Babesiosis, which is like malaria), and that's when I got really sick. I got mostly treated over the next couple of years, and then got another tick bite, this time with Lyme (maybe) but definitely with Ehrlichiosis. These three diseases each need different diagnostic tests and different meds.
Also, my LLMD was big on lots of antibiotics, and nothing else except yeast-based probiotics to avoid massive fungal infections resulting from the antibiotics killing all the beneficial bacteria in your system in addition to the 'bad' Lyme and other bacteria. Well, it turns out there are some people (of which I am one) who are especially susceptible to being colonized by yeast-based probiotics, getting in effect a massive yeast infection throughout the body. What a mess, huh! Long story short, I stopped the antibiotics, then got the re-infection, have worked very hard to beat the fungal infection, and am doing quite well rebuilding my system with good food, good sleep, some exercise, and a bunch of supplements recommended by my MD. Oh yeah, and I'm now taking thyroid supplements; not only does thyroid trouble run in my family, but Lyme can also hamper the thyroid system.
Why do I bore you with all this? To say that there is no short and easy cure. There are many twists in the road, and it gets frustrating and boring quite often, but the road is leading upward for me and I'm glad to be on it.
Some people are of the opinion that Lyme is never really killed, just driven into silence. Whatever, as long as I can function, and I am close to normal. Close enough, at least. And still getting better after about 4 years since getting really really ill.
It does take time and patience and bobbing and weaving to find the right meds and docs and figure out when to change up ... nothing's easy, you know? So you hang in there, and keep fighting the good fight. Do talk with your doc about your side effects: it's not good to hit your body too hard with the meds side effects when it's already working so hard against the disease.
Hope this helps and that you feel better soon. Bon courage, mon ami.
Glad to hear you found a Lyme doc! That sounds like some pretty sizeable doses you are taking, and you may indeed be Herxing. Have you talked with your doc about backing off a bit on the meds to lessen the Herxing? Everyone seems to be a bit different in how they react to different meds, and Lyme docs are different in their approaches to which meds and at what doses when. For example, some docs pound away at the bugs with the same daily dose of one or several meds for several months, then switch to different meds for more months. Other docs 'pulse' meds, taking breaks along the way and switching up the meds in various combos.
I have not read any single source that discusses the different antibiotics and which ones are used for what reasons, so it's quite obscure to me.
Nevertheless, have you talked with your doc about the side effects you are having? I would not hesitate to call and ask for an appointment, or tell the nurse/whoever the reaction you are having and what can be done to reduce the side effects. That's a reasonable thing to do. Herxes can be bad enough to have to go off meds for a while, so I wouldn't suffer in silence. Your doc needs to know.
To your broader question about whether most Lyme patients get better, I don't have a sense of the actual statistics, but I do believe that many if not most of us improve with the right treatment (depending on co-infections and on personal body chemistry, in my understanding), and a substantial number are considered cured, or at least so close to cured that it feels like one.
It is true that it takes quite a while to begin to feel better. I have read (and been told by my current doc) that it is like peeling the layers of an onion ... one at a time, slowly rebuilding the immune system and slowly stripping away the slimy protective shields the Lyme bacteria construct for themselves so the meds can kill them.
One reason it takes so long to treat is (so I read) that Lyme bacteria have an exceptionally slow reproductive cycle, and it is while reproducing that bacteria are most susceptible to the meds. Non-LLMDs do not seem to acknowledge this aspect of Lyme, yet there are other bacteria which have the same characteristic, such as the bacteria causing tuberculosis and also Hansen's disease (leprosy). Standard treatment for TB has long been 18 months of antibiotics (altho that has been shortened recently due to newer meds), and nobody flinches at that, but treat Lyme for longer than a few weeks? No way! Phooey.
So for several reasons, treating and recovering from Lyme is a long road, but one well worth the journey. I believe that I had a low-level case of Lyme for several years, and then got another infection on top of the existing one (Lyme again and Babesiosis, which is like malaria), and that's when I got really sick. I got mostly treated over the next couple of years, and then got another tick bite, this time with Lyme (maybe) but definitely with Ehrlichiosis. These three diseases each need different diagnostic tests and different meds.
Also, my LLMD was big on lots of antibiotics, and nothing else except yeast-based probiotics to avoid massive fungal infections resulting from the antibiotics killing all the beneficial bacteria in your system in addition to the 'bad' Lyme and other bacteria. Well, it turns out there are some people (of which I am one) who are especially susceptible to being colonized by yeast-based probiotics, getting in effect a massive yeast infection throughout the body. What a mess, huh! Long story short, I stopped the antibiotics, then got the re-infection, have worked very hard to beat the fungal infection, and am doing quite well rebuilding my system with good food, good sleep, some exercise, and a bunch of supplements recommended by my MD. Oh yeah, and I'm now taking thyroid supplements; not only does thyroid trouble run in my family, but Lyme can also hamper the thyroid system.
Why do I bore you with all this? To say that there is no short and easy cure. There are many twists in the road, and it gets frustrating and boring quite often, but the road is leading upward for me and I'm glad to be on it.
Some people are of the opinion that Lyme is never really killed, just driven into silence. Whatever, as long as I can function, and I am close to normal. Close enough, at least. And still getting better after about 4 years since getting really really ill.
It does take time and patience and bobbing and weaving to find the right meds and docs and figure out when to change up ... nothing's easy, you know? So you hang in there, and keep fighting the good fight. Do talk with your doc about your side effects: it's not good to hit your body too hard with the meds side effects when it's already working so hard against the disease.
Hope this helps and that you feel better soon. Bon courage, mon ami.
Hello,
We talked some time ago. I law a LLND and am now on 400 mg of Doxy a day, 3000 mg of penicillin a day and take three Probenecid tablets daily (before seeing the LLND, I was on 200 mg of Doxy a day). My symptoms and pain have worsened substantially after about three weeks of taking this. I hope it is just a herx. I feel like I have herniated discs all over my spine and weak legs and painful feet.
In your opinion talking to many people, do you find most Lyme sufferers get better? I get discouraged because this has been going on for so long now without much improvement. Thanks for any advice.....Jen
We talked some time ago. I law a LLND and am now on 400 mg of Doxy a day, 3000 mg of penicillin a day and take three Probenecid tablets daily (before seeing the LLND, I was on 200 mg of Doxy a day). My symptoms and pain have worsened substantially after about three weeks of taking this. I hope it is just a herx. I feel like I have herniated discs all over my spine and weak legs and painful feet.
In your opinion talking to many people, do you find most Lyme sufferers get better? I get discouraged because this has been going on for so long now without much improvement. Thanks for any advice.....Jen
Thanks for answering. I'm getting emotionally (reading posts) and physically (having massage) ready for my treatment. Will keep you posted.
My son usually had the Herx reaction start within a couple of days after starting the antibiotic. He was diagnosed late after exposure, so that he did have a strong reaction and felt like crap. For him, this pretty much lasted the duration of the course of abx.
Can't help out with how it play's into the female cycle.
Can't help out with how it play's into the female cycle.
It's been a while since I've been on antibiotics, and I haven't taken doxy, so my situation may not be very informative ... HOWEVER!
The herxes I had when I was on abx for a year+ were never as bad as the symptoms of the disease. It's different for everyone, but I don't think I've ever read here anyone saying that the cure was worse than the illness.
Part of it is knowing that the medicine is supposed to be working, and then having a herx and feeling under the weather, or even downright lousy.
If anyone is going to have a bad reaction to medication, it's me, and I tolerated the different antibiotics really well from the herx point of view. (I am SUCH a light weight that I don't drink coffee or tea because it gets me too jumpy -- and I mean just one cup will do that. One beer, and I'm under the table. One tylenol and I don't feel a thing.)
While herxes are disappointing, in that feeling crummy is not what seems right when your body is supposed to be getting well, don't fear the herx. The hard part is that Lyme and the herx mess with your mind and your emotions, so even when I know I'm having a Lyme attack or a herx, I can't just shrug it off like I can a headache. The bugs mess with your mind as much as with your body.
I waited quite a while to start abx because I was afraid, but once on them, I was fine.
I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over here, trying to find the most effective way to communicate what I'm thinking ... sorry it's repetitive.
The bottom line is: go for it! You came this far, and the journey back is not as hard as where you've already been.
The herxes I had when I was on abx for a year+ were never as bad as the symptoms of the disease. It's different for everyone, but I don't think I've ever read here anyone saying that the cure was worse than the illness.
Part of it is knowing that the medicine is supposed to be working, and then having a herx and feeling under the weather, or even downright lousy.
If anyone is going to have a bad reaction to medication, it's me, and I tolerated the different antibiotics really well from the herx point of view. (I am SUCH a light weight that I don't drink coffee or tea because it gets me too jumpy -- and I mean just one cup will do that. One beer, and I'm under the table. One tylenol and I don't feel a thing.)
While herxes are disappointing, in that feeling crummy is not what seems right when your body is supposed to be getting well, don't fear the herx. The hard part is that Lyme and the herx mess with your mind and your emotions, so even when I know I'm having a Lyme attack or a herx, I can't just shrug it off like I can a headache. The bugs mess with your mind as much as with your body.
I waited quite a while to start abx because I was afraid, but once on them, I was fine.
I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over here, trying to find the most effective way to communicate what I'm thinking ... sorry it's repetitive.
The bottom line is: go for it! You came this far, and the journey back is not as hard as where you've already been.
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