Exaggerated depression during flare ups

[wonko]

Sure, worsening symptoms are a reasonable cause for some situational depression, but when my symptoms act up I feel as though I get depressed beyond what I'd expect for the circumstances.  I think I cope with this pretty well, I never make (or even contemplate) major life/work decisions when I feel like this, and I distract myself with a lot of humorous shows or silly movies, etc.  I also remind myself that I know the emotions I have when I feel sick are very different from those when I feel better.

While I don't feel at risk during these times, it makes me wonder if there is some underlying organic reason for why my emotions are so deeply affected?  I am admittedly an emotional person, but to me the heaviness of the depression that sets in when my symptoms flare is beyond what I'd expect of myself.

It can also be very sudden!  Just yesterday I had a good day, was very active and got a lot done.  I was in a very good and optimistic mood.  Then I woke up this morning with "brain fog" and body aches, and by mid-day I'm crying and feeling emotionally awful.

I'll also note that this can happen when I'm on abx or off.

It's hard enough to not know how I'll feel physically day to day, I wish I had more emotional stability through this.

[mojogal]

I take 6 at once at least once a week or if i have a bad herx, i take 8 more often until the herx goes away.  I am going to do that detox blood test and if it shows slow detox my LLMD said I could increase it to daily.
It also helps my stomach. Have you asked your LLMD about it?

[wonko]

How much activated charcoal do you take?  Once when I was feeling very sick I ordered some after reading about it as helpful for getting over herx/flare ups, but when I took it I didn't notice any improvement.  Maybe I just didn't take enough?

While the cholestramine works well for me, I'd rather use something like charcoal that is simple and OTC.

[mojogal]

If you google activated charcoal its like a miracle pill. It's cheap and over the counter. You just have to make sure you take it 3 hrs before or after abx or supplements.

[Ricobord]

I can testify to detoxing. I was not improving as much as I expected on abx. After 6 months, I had to stop several meds to give my kidneys a rest, and zi started to feel better within a few days. As my kidneys recovered, I realized I didn't feel so sluggish and out of it. Apparently, feeling tired and run down is the primary symptom of underperforming kidneys, as too many toxins are circulating around the body rather than being filtered out like they should be.

So, I am convinced detoxing can help, at least for some people.  Chlorella has helped me, although I will probably ask at my next appointment about activated charcoal. I have heard good things about that, too.

[mojogal]

wonko,
The toxins are from the die offs which of course is what we want to happen.

The cholestramine is perfect for that. I was unable to tolerate it so I use activated charcoal instead. This makes me feel better.

You sound like how I was at work....work hard and being competitive.

Many LLMD go by symptoms alone as it sometimes takes years for positive results. I have a friend like that. She went through treatment for years until she got her evidence.

This is a hard road for all of us but sending healing thoughts your way for your recent surgery and the Lyme.

[wonko]

That is a good thought, mojo.

From the skeptic in me:  I've always been frustrated with the term "detox," it just sounds so vague!  Outside of Lyme, all I can think of that can build up in the body and cause pain is lactic acid.  I've heard lots of people talk about detoxing, but always without specifying what the supposed "toxins" really are.

From my experience:  I can't help but think there is something to the detox theory.  I've had herx-like (or possibly strong immune responses) to physical treatments like deep tissue massage.  I regularly go for massages now, and usually while I'm still on the table I start to get a headache and to feel "woozy," I believe that the massage does help to get some sort of build up moving through my body.

Also, my current LLMD has me on cholestyramine for the off-label purpose of detoxing.  It seemed to make it much easier to tolerate abx.  I stopped abx for a surgery I needed (and from which I'm still recovering).  While I'm not on abx right now, since I felt such a bad stirring in my symptoms I took some this AM and feel much better this afternoon.  In fact, I'm just back from a 1 hour walk!  It could be a coincidence, but the correlation makes me think again that there is something to the detox theory.

I will ask my LLMD about testing next time around.  Though honestly since none of my Lyme/co testing has ever done much to support my dx, I actually have more faith in my experiences than in bloodwork.  A departure from the need I had for everything to be evidence-based before getting ill.

Anyway, thanks for thinking of me.  Sometimes we need to go with the flow on these things, even if our inner skeptic has doubts.  I am holding out hope that someday my fatigue will resolve.  It is so crazy to me how big a problem it continues to be despite all of the years of treatment and my otherwise pretty good improvement.

Oh, and ditto on the anxiety.  I am by nature a worrisome person, I over-analyze just about everything and never feel I'm on top of my life, professionally or otherwise.  Before I got sick my stress pushed me to work hard and to be competitive, but now it is at times more of a burden and there were times during treatment when I would get mild anxiety attacks.  I would feel like everything inside of me was "rushing" and like my heart and breathing were too fast and out of control.  Luckily I was always able to manage these events and I haven't had one in maybe 2 years.  I sure do not miss those one bit, and I do (as did my LLMD at the time) blame the bart!
  

[mojogal]

Wonko, reading your response on another post regarding your on going fatigue, I read about a blood test that actually measures how well you detox.

My Lyme brain doesn't let me remember the name but it is a DNA test that can be done by a regular lab.

My LLMD mentioned this could be a reason for ongoing fatigue if you are one who genetically detoxes slowly. If interested I will search for the name.

Just a thought....

[mojogal]

I am glad you spoke to your LLMD on this subject.

I want to tell you that the antidepressant I am on does not make me sleepy. Honestly, I have heard that some people have to try many meds to find the one that works for them. Which can be a pain.

My LLMD said this is temporary. Yes, I take them daily for now ,which will stop as I get better.

Another thing to think about since I have Bart's also, is the anxiety. Perhaps taking something for anxiety may do the trick if it gets bothersome. Even without any abx, with Bart's you can have anxiety.

Wishing you luck in whatever you decide!

[wonko]

I forgot to say that I never took malarone (Babs has never been high on the list of suspects for me) but I've heard that is a tough one!  Glad you got through it alright.  For me I think rifampin (sp?) was the worst in terms of psych symptoms, it gave me the worst nightmares and just made me feel very moody with lots of headaches.

I also had a couple of mild panic attacks much earlier in treatment that I think were caused by certain abx or how my infections responded to them.  Never had them before, hope I never have them again!  Overall, I am far more empathetic a being having gone through this all.  The old me didn't "get" how others could complain about panic or fatigue.  I guess good 'ol karma got me on my previous insensitivity to the plights of others!

[wonko]

I do believe it is the bugz and not me!  I have such a great life and know that the depression is coming from the disease and not my outlook.  Knowing that fact helps a lot on those bad days, I know not to believe the negative thoughts/feelings.

I am a bit reluctant about antidepressants for two reasons:  8-9 times out of 10, I'm not depressed, yet it is my understanding that you need to always take antidepressants for them to work.  The other concern I have is how it would affect my sleep.  My biggest issue is fatigue and I truly do battle it, and I worry about side effects of drowsiness, etc.

I have talked about this with my LLMD and they so far have agreed that if I am only depressed during the height of a flare, then antidepressants may not be the answer.  But I am sure she would Rx them if I wanted to try them.  I have an appt. in October and will bring this up again.

I think I'm close to returning to work after a non-Lyme related medical leave, and so the other day when my symptoms flared up (and I'm not currently on abx) it was depressing and emotionally difficult.  I woke up feeling very sick again today, just an all-over toxic kind of feeling, but I think it is lifting a bit this afternoon.

One thing I do is track my symptoms.  I used to avoid doing this because it is honestly depressing, but I've learned that it really helps to know what to discuss with my doctor.  This site has "trackers" for mood, weight, exercise, etc.  There is no Lyme tracker but there is an autoimmune tracker and a chronic fatigue tracker, and between those my symptoms are covered.  Anyway, I haven't been using the mood tracker but in light of my struggles with depression I'll start that up again to make sure that I'm not downplaying the issue.  (I tend to do that, if asked I'll say I'm fine but when given a checklist of symptoms I have a lot to check off!  I think it is the psyche's way of self-defense to minimize, but then that doesn't help to discuss our status with doctors and to make treatment decisions.)


Youvegottobekidding:

I'm sorry you are having such a tough time!  I also have Bart and at times suffered from terribly vivid dreams full of gore and violence, and they were so realistic!  It scared me that my mind could come up with those dreams.  I hope you do keep in contact with your doctor about how you are feeling, it sounds awful and I'm sure that with you too it is not you but the nasty bugs!

...And to each their own, but I never use the term "Lymie" and cringe when I read it!  

[youvegottobekidding]

I get like this too and I'm in the middle of a terrible depression right now.
I think about suicide, though I know I have enough control inside that I'd never actually do it. I have horrible wake-dreams where I see my husband and son getting killed in a horrible road accident or other tragedy. All kinds of other horrific scenarios play out in my head and I cannot stop them, they go over and over in my mind like a film playing out and get elaborated in a bit more terrible detail each time.
I also get paranoid adn think everyone hates me, or is ignoring me, and that I have no friends at all.
My doc said Bart is the one that really does these shocking things to ourt brains, it is a lot worse than lyme in that respect. I know I'm having  nasty bart flare up right now as I also have very bad foot joints, foot pain and some of hte other nasty bart things.
I have taken prozac on 2 occasions when this got really bad and I an one of the lucky people who finds it really effective with no downside.
I honestly think, if it gets too bad, it's worth having a good talk with your lyme doc about testing some antidepressant - as far as I know, some are safe for lymies and some are not advisable.

[Ricobord]

Great advice!

It is true...it's not you. It's the bugz!  Both Lyme and Bartonella are known to cause depression.  They mess with the brain chemistry.  It has given me a whole new compassion for people with anxiety and/or depression as now I really know what they feel like.

A good anti-depressant is a God-send!

[JackieCalifornia]

Sounds like you've been carrying a heavy load, with your surgery on top of Lyme+ and work and everything else.  And since Lyme mucks with body chemistry in all sorts of subtle and not-so-subtle ways, brain chemistry and thus emotions get thrown into the cooking pot too, I can only imagine.

I don't know if that counts as an 'organic' reason, but it's surely not you doing it to yourself.  Exhibit A:  You say above:  "It can also be very sudden!  Just yesterday I had a good day, was very active and got a lot done.  I was in a very good and optimistic mood.  Then I woke up this morning with 'brain fog' and body aches, and by mid-day I'm crying and feeling emotionally awful."

It's not you.  It's the bugz.  Repeat 100 times on your way to see the doc and get some chemical uplift.  You deserve it and should have it, imnmo (in my non-medical opinion).  

Sprained ankle:crutches=emotional downdraft:chemical uplift

Repeat:  It's not you.  It's the bugz.  And even if a teeny little bit of it is in your nature, which I don't think it is from knowing you here, that's no reason not to get a little chemical help.  In any event, the bugz definitely make it worse.  Just a suggestion.  Wishing you well!

[mojogal]

I am so sorry for your depression. You probably know that Lyme and Bart's especially, can cause depression and anxiety. Are you on an antidepressant?
That really helped me a lot. I have Bart's, babs and Lyme.
The worst feeling I ever had was when I was tring to up my dose of malarone, I had an actual "suicidal ideation" and was scared to death. The LLMD doubled my dose of antidepressants and when I next tried to increase the dose, no depression of any kind.
I really feel for you because I know how bad and helpless you can feel from depression.
We are here for you. It's important to talk about it. You should probably tell your doctor too.
Let us know how you are doing.