please help with suboxone

[mitch1970]

I am in transition from methadone to suboxone today. I am waiting for the WD's so I can take my first suboxone strip. I want to wait as long as possible and take as little as necessary... Where can I get advice on the internet? chat rooms? I am very eager to stop all opiate related meds. If I wanted to stop very soon and quick what are my options? I have a new doctor for the suboxone but I don't feel like I can burden him with all the questions I have. Thanks all!

[IBKleen]

Hi,

I don't know why you don't want to ask your prescribing physician? That is what he is there for and should not only have written the prescription but should be guiding along the way and setting up some form of aftercare. Seems strange that you would not want to ask for his help.

I don't know of chat rooms but a google search may help you. Best of luck!

[weaver71]

I switched from methadone to subs and am now 23 days off subs. I would suggest reading the suboxone/subutex FAQs at the bottom right of this forum, then I would google "COWs scale" to know when to induce, you doctor should have educated you more about this. Many doctors are minimally educated as an 8hr class is all that is required to prescribe it. I would also read the Thomas Recipe and Amino Acid protocol on this forum.After you have done those things, return with more specific questions. You really need to do this research before you induce or you may really regret taking subs. Good luck.

[mitch1970]

Hello!  thanks for the reply. I did ask questions, just not enough. And doctors have angles to think about. For example someone in AA might say go cold turkey and feel the pain. My doctor says wait 6 months before I change anything. I don't agree with either. I am somewhere in between and looking for the perfect place to be.

[mitch1970]

I am learning how this forum works by using it so sorry if I jump around. I will address all of you: I have been reading A LOT, for many days. I ams cared, naturally, as I make this move. I have been using COWS all day. I know about supplements but my first thought is not to mask my WD's right now since I need to identify them. I am a bit of an internet junky so I may know more than I should. There is a lot of bad info out there.

I actually do have specific questions... I just was not sure where and when to post them.

My big one is: Since I want OFF of these drugs is there a way to capitalize on my transition? IOW I am thinking I should wait as long as possible, even into severe WD's and then take as little of the subs as possible. This may give me a head start right? I say this now while I am only yawning a lot and my addict will kick in and I fear taking more than necessary. I heard you can get high from suboxone. thoughts??

[mitch1970]

Oh yeah. My doctor said take half of a strip (4mg) and then wait 2 hours and then take another.  8mg is his plan. i asked what if I feel fine after 4mg and he said then don't take the second strip. lol. Seems like his plan is a little simplified in my opinion.

Any thoughts on that? I do trust him and am pretty sure I will follow his directions to a T.

Why did he instruct a 4mg dose to start? Because of the possibility of precipitated WD's? To induce me properly? thanks for your help.

[IBKleen]

You are not all over the place. You are doing fine.

Please know that there are guidelines for this community and one of the most important ones is that we do not give out dosing instructions or tapering information. This is for the benefit of the member asking the question as well as the community as a whole. There are no doctors here so it would be reckless of us to give out such information not knowing your complete medical history. That is why it is always recommended that you do a program such as this under a doctor's care.

Have you done any reading on the Suboxone website?

[mitch1970]

I have done a lot of reading. i think I may just need a little connection right now though. I am going though some very weird things that i was not told about. Specifically a very strong urge to want to be OFF the meds asap. And even more odd... a good feeling. I am enjoying at least one aspect of the methadone leaving my system. I am feeling good! The blurry cloudy haze is lifting and i am getting sad thinking of the last 7 months of my life i have lived in this haze of methadone!  its weird. That's my consolation prize I guess... I am sure the real check is still in the mail. right? It's been 40 hours since my last dose and I am in a good mood with about 7 or 8 cows. cmon cows, lets get this over with

[weaver71]

Maybe you can just taper the methadone and jump off. You may not need the sub. Not trying to tell you what to do, but if you are doing so well, you might think about that.

[atthebeach]

what is your long term plan? did you want to stay on the subs? do you have a recovery plan in place? meetings,counseling,
exercise,hobbys,church, changing the people,places and things associated with your use,keeping yourself busy?
many forms of aftercare.
what type of plan did you and your doctor discuss?

[mitch1970]

Hey everyone THANK YOU. and I NEED HELP ASAP. so I will send this out and then answer questions.  1st a recap:

I am in transition from meth clinic to private sub doctor. I have a good repor with only one person at the clinic and he had to be very careful about helping me "move on".  what does that say about the world of MMT meds?

I have not yet taken my first sub at 58 hours with odd and minimal WD's. Things NOT on COWS.  my COWS have gone down actually.  

[IBKleen]

What do you need help with?

[mitch1970]

maybe taper methadone? that poses new questions: returning to clinic after 1 day absent? back to meth when sub seems to be the popular taper med? if I am 58 hour into this with no meds does that, dare i say, mean I should actually think about jumping? b/c while most stories i hear tell about ppl going into bad WD's at this point I, dare I say, feel like I am feeling better...  already...  nobody prepared me for this. argghhhh.

new question:  what about "wait as long as possible and if i must take subs take only 2 mg and try to make it hold and then only take the absolute necessary amount and then, at a strategic moment in the next week, jump to zero OR stabilize on a low dose...

guys, gals,  My big question of the millennium is...  Can I, should I, and what happens if I...  JUMP, now, no more, finito,  SOBER!

I can already smell again and I like it!  I feel like going for a walk. Is that a WD?  It's not on COWS

I just called my doctor and he said no. everyone says no. I feel like a bad little kid who doesn't want to take his drug. uh cawnt hav ma puddin if uh dont eat my sub.

i will try googling  "pleasant withdrawal experiences".  i am not joking either.

oh to answer the other questions, thanks for asking...

I dont know what I want. it has changed every day. today i know i want OFF ALL MEDS.

I am changing counselors that come with the MMT. I am thinking of switching from NA to AA.  I am a full time athlete and student so I am already busy. I have no bad people or places. Its been years since I had any issues like that. I fell into this MMT thing very quickly and partly due to prescrip meds.

Its all getting sorted out like now. I think deciding whether I am gonna actually be off the meds or not is the biggest question of the moment since it controls many other options. which counselor, long term plan, etc

[IBKleen]

I can't say one way or the other on tapering, jumping, to Sub or not to Sub. That is as individual as you are so that is something that you have to work out and do what is best for you. My personal opinion is stay far, far, far away from Methadone. Period.

I think you are not feeling the withdrawal yet because of the long half-life but I have heard stranger stories of people who experience no withdrawal. I was never one of them so I stand in awe of you if you are.

AA or NA--whatever is most comfortable for you. I do both. I also think it is great that you have aftercare in place. Never too much of that good thing.

I guess you have a lot of thinking to do and decisions to make. Keep us updated and best of luck.

[mitch1970]

Thank you. My call, my individuality, that is the bottom line, you are absolutely correct.

I have formulated my question to seek an answer based on a model:

If now or soon I will need x amount of suboxone to feel okay AND if, as everyone agrees, I wait long enough I will need zero suboxone to feel well then what does the graph look like in between?

ie: If I plot an X Y graph, time being X and Y being "needed amount of suboxone"

How does the curve of the graph look?  Is it a steady decrease or a quick drop at the end? Seems it would be a steady decrease and, therefore, I should be able to take a lower dose if I wait longer. I can understand why a doctor would not get into this with me. And I can see how it may be out of bounds for this forum (if not over heads, sorry) but if anyone out there agrees with me then a simple thumbs up will do!

I will stay in touch.  Oh yeah!  I took a shower this morning and looked in the mirror and liked who I saw!  That didn't happen ever on methadone!  

[IBKleen]

Now you want us to complete an algebraic equation? LOL Again, very individual.

Sorry this community couldn't help you more with these questions but the guidelines are in place for your protection.

Hang in there Mitch. I am sure you will get to the other side no matter what you choose.

[pitbullmom]

hey mitch. u seem to b doing ok with out the sub however i think there may b something  ahead do to meth half life  dont take the sub unless you need it then take the least amount to help your symptoms. you r over thinking this trust me when u need the sub u will kno. if i were u i would enjoy feeling good and stop worrying if it gets bad  u kno what to do

[weaver71]

I agree with pitbullmom, sleep and enjoy it, eat and enjoy it, go for a walk and enjoy it. If you can keep your possitive attitude, you will make it. You may have something ahead, about day 5, but don't think about that, just enjoy what you have today and see what happens. You have done your research, just relax into the plan and stick to it.

[mitch1970]

Hey, checking in. Thanks for the good words. I will probably take my sub around 5 or 6 in the morning after doing my COWS check. Never thought I would hope for WD's!!!  I hope that first does will help me sleep in! I am needing some sleep! and I am getting skinny fast!  i need 3000+ calories a day and all I have had is some yogurt and oatmeal.

COWS are still lingering near 10 or 12, maybe 13. I feel like crap though. I am exhausted. Thats not on COWS though. In 4.5 hours it will be 530am which is the 72 hour mark, yay!  I never thought i would do this but i am going to bed, with the sub strips nearby.

I have taken vitamins, protein, metamucil, b12, ibuprofen, 1 mg clonazepam (prescribed) and my only fear is that I may get hungry after I lie down since I have not been eating enough. I have a HUGE metabolism with a resting heart rate of 43. Does that mean 80 bpm is 63 bpm for me?

I had an awful long day talking to my parents. They originally were okay with things and offered to help me in many ways but then things got weird. They began bashing maintenance medication and telling me I was using and very much an addict in denial. it was very bad. I did my best to explain that it was not a good time to talk about my life that way. ( 50 hours without methadone!)  anyway I play soccer 2 hours every day, I am a deans list student making all A's. Life could not be better. i do wonder if i could have found a better way to solve a pill problem 7 months ago but I panicked back in January, I was scared, the percs, pills, snorting heroin got out of control in a few weeks and I needed to get my life on track or cause problems in school. Maintenance medication was amazing! Very curative, no more anxiety, sleeping like a rock, waking up early, athletic and studious like and olympian/scholar. I told them all of this and yet they are changing there view of me.  i think they think i am lying. They keep looking surprised when i say I have the prescribed meds and i am waiting to take them!  i feel I need to back away from my 2 best supporters. They dont understand anything. So I have a little phase to get through when I taper to zero. Not a big deal.  argghhh.  I got so stressed and pissed that they would not pull their punches when i was going through induction. It was a precipitated parent withdraw. I got so stressed it turned to acute panic anxiety and then hot heavy feeling.

note to self:  BE IN GOOD PLACE WHEN NOT IN GOOD WAY, and stay away from people who arent 100% supportive and positive.

I will call some friend borrow the money they promised to help with and simply let them learn about this on their own and when they decide to handle this better i will listen to what they have to say, assuming I am ready to listen.yep. Its all about me right now

thanks weaver,
pitbullmom, and
IBKleen

[weaver71]

Sorry to hear you lost some support, but you still have the forum. I'm glad you said it's all about you. The truth is you have to do it for you. Good relationships are a gift of taking care of you and your addiction. I know it must be hard, but I think you have this thing. You can't afford the anxiety right now, so I think you're right to give yourself some space. NA/AA has the people who have been there and will support you, as you know. Good luck, and keep us posted.

[clean_in_ks]

I didn't go from methadone to suboxone but from 20-25 lortabls/10 somas a day to cutting back on my own, but increasing my anti-depressant and med for nerve damage called gabapentin.  I was taking those about every hr whenever I wanted opiates and was a mess by the time I was introduced to suboxone.  

I was torn about taking the sub, too.  But, I decided to try it and if I didn't like the way I felt quit taking it so I wouldn't have to w/d from that next.

I am 56 days clean and 28 days off suboxone.  I knew absolutely nothing about suboxone when I was introduced to it and was worried that I was still considered "using".  The film I saw at aftercare said sub has a controlled ceiling on it so I didn't have to worry about taking too much.  The Drs on the film said it was designed and mfrd that way since most addicts take more and more and more.  I'm not giving advise, here.  Just passing on what I learned.  Maybe you can gain access to a video on suboxone and the pharmaceutical co. that is getting rich helping us addicts! ha!

I truly thought I needed the help of suboxone and took it after I had been weaning off the opiates.  Just didn't like how I felt so decided at that point to quit taking it.  Guess you could just take life one day or a half a day at a time and decide when the time comes.

I truly wish you the best.

[mitch1970]

Thank you everyone.

update:

Earlier while in bed I got leg cramps at 5am and at 530am opened the suboxone. I was tired and didn't do a good job at my first dosing. The strip was smaller and harder to control then I hoped. I tore off what may have been about 3mg then when I tried to put it under my tongue it didn't want to leave the finger. I even missed the target a few times by rubbing it on gums. I ended leaving my finger under my tongue or somewhere pressed against the underpart of my mouth and kept my mouth closed for a while. I spit out the sailva that accumulated into a bottle, not sure why, maybe fearing that the meds were still in my spit.

It worked. I feel okay. bit tired but I have lost sleep. I may be a very low dose so I hope it is mission accomplished. I will call my doctor now.

I need to figure out what dose I am on and if I am stable on it.  

Any suggestions? My doctor is triiger happy with dosing so I need some advice. I do not want to over medicate since I may be tapering very soon. Kinda excited about that.

How can I figure out what I am on 1 2 or 3 mg? Just wait and take a measured 1 mg and see how I feel? and then go up if needed?

Thanks!!!!

[mitch1970]

Just to remind everyone I am new to suboxone and now have a private doctor so I have some control over what I take.

That is where I need advice. A lot has been left up to me because it's about how I feel.

thanks!

[mitch1970]

I called my doctor and tried to explain my unkown dosage and he still says  that I need to take 4mg later and then twice daily (8mg/day)

I took around 2mg or less this morning and feel okay. Why is he so anxious to put me at a higher dose? I worked so hard to get this far. He had at one point said not to take more than my body needed. ie: the lowest dose necessary...

I can't talk to my doctor. I cant talk to my parents (see post above) My best friend who I often confide in has been to busy to talk, only a few minutes this morning...

guys, gals,

This is my only place!!!   Please help!

[IBKleen]

There is no way to tell how much you took. It got stuck on your finger, you spit it out, etc. Heck, if you don't know then I surely don't know either.

I just need to comment about something. It is not the drugs that define us as addicts. It is our behavior. What you are still doing is self-medicating. You need to get a schedule or a plan with the Suboxone. If you are trying to avoid the withdrawal with it then you are on dangerous ground.

I know I keep repeating myself but I still think you need to talk with your doctor and get honest.