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Subutex W/D during pregnancy/seroquel
Hey all. I've been on Subutex for 3 years - due to a relapse. Worst mistake of my life. I've kicked heroin many times, but can't kick the sub. Not to mention my "conspiracy theory" on Subutex, but I won't give you that talk now - and I've seen many of you think the same. I found out I was pregnant while in my third year of Sub treatment - so it's not like I switched. My main goal for getting off Subutex is selfish - bash me as you like - I want pain relief during and AFTER giving birth. The option I was given was quite scary - an epidural for THREE DAYS!! I'm a wuss when it comes to pain, but I don't want an epidural for 3 days!! After I had my daughter 3 yrs ago I was given percs - 10 days worth - and was fine. An Epidural means I can't move!! The docs also mentioned they "could" give me a complete opiate agonist, in place of the epidural - gee, let's see which one they actually give me. . . Epidural anyone?? I can't imagine they want to give an opiate addict a morphine drip - even after a c-section! No, we've become a secondary human-life w/in hospital settings. The second you mention you take Sub or seem a little too eager to get that vicodin prescription, you're screwed! Nothing but unbearable pain for you, my little addict. . .
Geez - I've gone off on a rant! Sorry. Anyhow - I'm 29/30 weeks pregnant and jumping off tonight - I only take 2mg per day, and at the highest, maybe 4mg. I figure if I jump off now my child has a great chance of surviving outside the womb - you kno, for those that are gonna tell me I'm gonna miscarry - except after 27 weeks it's no longer called a miscarry, but a premature or stillbirth (Yes, I know those are 2 different things). I'm just trying to weed out all the self-taught med students - I know most of us know more than the nurses who assist the doctors - but that's not what I'm here for. . .
What I am here for is to know if someone has gone through a similar experience, what happened, how long were you sick, and how long did it take for you to feel 100%? I'm jumping off at a smaller dose than most do - so how much lower can I go w/o going insane? I don't really want to find out.
I'm also prescribed seroquel 50mg to sleep, but not sure how this will affect my baby - but I am willing to take it when the going gets rough. Has anyone used seroquel during an opiate w/d?
Geez - I've gone off on a rant! Sorry. Anyhow - I'm 29/30 weeks pregnant and jumping off tonight - I only take 2mg per day, and at the highest, maybe 4mg. I figure if I jump off now my child has a great chance of surviving outside the womb - you kno, for those that are gonna tell me I'm gonna miscarry - except after 27 weeks it's no longer called a miscarry, but a premature or stillbirth (Yes, I know those are 2 different things). I'm just trying to weed out all the self-taught med students - I know most of us know more than the nurses who assist the doctors - but that's not what I'm here for. . .
What I am here for is to know if someone has gone through a similar experience, what happened, how long were you sick, and how long did it take for you to feel 100%? I'm jumping off at a smaller dose than most do - so how much lower can I go w/o going insane? I don't really want to find out.
I'm also prescribed seroquel 50mg to sleep, but not sure how this will affect my baby - but I am willing to take it when the going gets rough. Has anyone used seroquel during an opiate w/d?
Hi Karma,
Jumping off at 2 - 4 mg after taking for 3 years is going to be really rough. I took sub for nearly 4 years and tried jumping off at 2 mg - it was pure hell. The withdrawal after about 3 days was much worse than the vicodin ever thought of being. In the end, I could not taper on my own and had to go through a medical detox - glad I did, I will be 6 months clean in 10 days.
It does not look like you have much time, best recommendation that I can make is to try and taper as low as possible before jumping off. Try and drop to 1mg immediately and go with that for a few days. Then try going lower, you will be litterally shaving off crumbs - if you can go every other day, that will help too when you finally jump off for good.
I don't know how being pregnant will play into this, but the withdrawal off 2mg would probably cause some undue stress to the baby and I would not recommend it. As for the Seroquel - I take 25mg for sleep once in a while, my doc gave it too me after my detox as a non-addicitve sleep med. I may take it a couple times per month, but I took it every day for a few weeks after the detox. Not sure the effect on the fetus, but if your doc is giving it to you, they should know the risks.
if you have any questions, feel free to ask me, I will tell you what I know. Best of luck.
Jumping off at 2 - 4 mg after taking for 3 years is going to be really rough. I took sub for nearly 4 years and tried jumping off at 2 mg - it was pure hell. The withdrawal after about 3 days was much worse than the vicodin ever thought of being. In the end, I could not taper on my own and had to go through a medical detox - glad I did, I will be 6 months clean in 10 days.
It does not look like you have much time, best recommendation that I can make is to try and taper as low as possible before jumping off. Try and drop to 1mg immediately and go with that for a few days. Then try going lower, you will be litterally shaving off crumbs - if you can go every other day, that will help too when you finally jump off for good.
I don't know how being pregnant will play into this, but the withdrawal off 2mg would probably cause some undue stress to the baby and I would not recommend it. As for the Seroquel - I take 25mg for sleep once in a while, my doc gave it too me after my detox as a non-addicitve sleep med. I may take it a couple times per month, but I took it every day for a few weeks after the detox. Not sure the effect on the fetus, but if your doc is giving it to you, they should know the risks.
if you have any questions, feel free to ask me, I will tell you what I know. Best of luck.
Thx for the constructive critisism and not bashing me. I've read many accounts, diaries, of people getting off sub, but they seem to cut off right before they tell us the results. I've tried the shaving thing - but never getting past 1/4 of a 2mg pill - it seems like I'm good for a couple days, then something pulls me back onto the Sub!! I can't explain it b/c I'm not one to have low will power - yet I always get pulled back.
You mentioned medical detox? What exactly was it? I know that is probably not an option for me now, but I've heard of some using anestesia (sp?) - where they "scrape" the sub molecules off receptors. Sounds scary, but, you know, when most docs give this med to patients, they tend to tell us any w/d from sub are "in our head" - or there aren't any! After two years of being told this, I confronted my doc w/ my symptoms by going into her office sick off subutex - she finally admitted: "We didn't know it was addictive when we put you on it." BS!! But yet I was paying them a good $300 per visit and $150 per bottle. I bet they didn't know. . .
Anyhow - so in 3 days I'll be worse? Why? B/C the sub molecules cling so tightly and come off so slowly? Yuck! The seroquel seems to be working very well - I was starting w/d last night and w/in 30mins of taking seroquel I was able to sleep a whole 8hrs - but I'm worried it's b/c I still had sub in my system.
You mentioned medical detox? What exactly was it? I know that is probably not an option for me now, but I've heard of some using anestesia (sp?) - where they "scrape" the sub molecules off receptors. Sounds scary, but, you know, when most docs give this med to patients, they tend to tell us any w/d from sub are "in our head" - or there aren't any! After two years of being told this, I confronted my doc w/ my symptoms by going into her office sick off subutex - she finally admitted: "We didn't know it was addictive when we put you on it." BS!! But yet I was paying them a good $300 per visit and $150 per bottle. I bet they didn't know. . .
Anyhow - so in 3 days I'll be worse? Why? B/C the sub molecules cling so tightly and come off so slowly? Yuck! The seroquel seems to be working very well - I was starting w/d last night and w/in 30mins of taking seroquel I was able to sleep a whole 8hrs - but I'm worried it's b/c I still had sub in my system.
you want to go all of the way down to a crumb if you jump off now you will have major wd where you are and your baby will be going threw the same thing .so if possable keep going down as far as u can :)
Jumping off at 2mg is going to be uncomfortable at best. I tried jumping at 2mg as well and couldn't take it. On the positive side, at .5mg the withdrawals were manageable and fairly easy. And yes, due to Sub's long half-life, withdrawal will start at 36-48 hours or more.
How long were u in w/d for after going to .5? I'm there now - my stomach is killin me, but other than that - i think im ok - i also had some crazy dreams last nite -
I agree, don't just go c/t - it could harm the baby more than the drug itself. Please try and taper, if you can't get off, it's better than the w/d for the baby. I had an opiod epidural for my second (fentanyl? I had no idea they used that, but they said it didn't go near the baby). I was on codeine during second pregnancy and tapered right down. I know it's not as tough as sub, believe me, I am in w/d right now and not having a good time! I did it before, but it's never been like this, anyway, back to you. My baby was totally fine, no harm at all, he's 2 and way beyond all milestones. My brother died of alcoholism a few months after the baby was born and the stress of that while I was pregnant was much worse than me taking 1 tylenol w/ codeine when I was pregnant every day or every second day. Try and stay on a dose that keeps you feeling ok. And talk to a doctor, if you can.
sorry to hear about ur brother. thx for the support. i have been taking 1/4 pill for about 3 days now - i caved in earlier this evening and took 1/4 pill - you know, i kicked heroin 3 times in jail - and i can't kick sub at home! it's nuts! however, that stuff is behind me, and honestly, i wouldn't mind going into labor - im sick of being pregnant.
Hello PLease TAPER as low as you can like the others said if you jump off now it will be pure he11 and hard on baby tooo/ I am sorry that your having to go through all this. I would shave crumbs off and do that and then try going ever other day. My friend is also on subutex been on it 2 yrs now and she tried to quit at 2mg and she said it was worse than anything or any w/d she ever been through she to was on herion... Please be careful for you and your baby if you need someone to talk to or just vent message me any time and let me know how things are going for you...Good Luck and God Bless
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Well, it's my fourth day taking 1/4 pill every 15 hours, or so. I figured if the half life of 1mg is 30 hours (If i'm wrong about that, can someone tell me what the 30 hour half life is for - what dosage?)
I wake up w the most awful stomach pains - which I consider to be the worst part. Rolaids not helping - any suggestions? It's not acid, it's a sour tightness - painful in many ways.
Tomorrow I start .125 every 8 hours for four days. I understand that might be a faster taper than most suggest - but I'm going by half-lives. I think once someone gets to .5 pill there is no need to taper more than 4 days at a time. I started at 2mg - 4mg - usually 2mg. And I tapered from that quicker than most, but my body has adjusted.
Any comments?
I wake up w the most awful stomach pains - which I consider to be the worst part. Rolaids not helping - any suggestions? It's not acid, it's a sour tightness - painful in many ways.
Tomorrow I start .125 every 8 hours for four days. I understand that might be a faster taper than most suggest - but I'm going by half-lives. I think once someone gets to .5 pill there is no need to taper more than 4 days at a time. I started at 2mg - 4mg - usually 2mg. And I tapered from that quicker than most, but my body has adjusted.
Any comments?
I just wanted to add - if anyone's wondering why I'm going by half lives,and want to try it this way, it's b/c the sub molecules bind so tightly to the receptors - going by half lives give them plenty of time to get knocked off. So instead of waiting 3 days to go into wd - you go into it, and finish it sooner.
By the time I get down to .125 once a day - there will be hardly anything left clinging to my receptors. So instead of w/d off 2mg - I'm only w/d off .125mg.
When u jump off at 2mg - u can expect to w/d at 48 - 60 hours later (almost 3days!!) - however, most addicts think they're w/d much sooner than that - I think those who taper don't realize exaclty why they're doing it.
I'm not stupid, I know when I get to .125 once a day and stop, I know I'll be in w/d longer than 8 hours, but it won't be unbearable - and sometimes if u just touch your tongue to a little piece, u'll feel better. It's not going to be pleasant, - but u won't die. Everything gets better with time - it just seems like time stands still through an opiate w/d.
By the time I get down to .125 once a day - there will be hardly anything left clinging to my receptors. So instead of w/d off 2mg - I'm only w/d off .125mg.
When u jump off at 2mg - u can expect to w/d at 48 - 60 hours later (almost 3days!!) - however, most addicts think they're w/d much sooner than that - I think those who taper don't realize exaclty why they're doing it.
I'm not stupid, I know when I get to .125 once a day and stop, I know I'll be in w/d longer than 8 hours, but it won't be unbearable - and sometimes if u just touch your tongue to a little piece, u'll feel better. It's not going to be pleasant, - but u won't die. Everything gets better with time - it just seems like time stands still through an opiate w/d.
So, to keep up to date - I've now started my 4 days of .125 - had some trouble this morning, but all in all - I don't feel too bad. I've got a scheduled dose at 10pm. If i feel ok I'm not gonna take it.
Hey all, here's my daily post: I've come down to .125mg (1/2 of a 1/4 pill) - basically nothing. However, I am still having some MINOR discomfort when I wake up after a seroquel nap (about 4 hrs). TV is able to distract me pretty well. I had some company this weekend - unplanned, and felt like I needed to entertain this person due to him having nowhere to go - so this helped a lot! Having someone to talk to and take my mind off w/d was great! I recommend it - even just getting on the Net and chatting to strangers, looking at pages, going to Pogo.com and playing cards, etc. makes the time go by very fast. Also, lamaze-type breathing helps w/ stomach discomfort.
I explained to a friend on here that by the time I get to nothing I am scared into going into harder w/d, but I can't let that stop me - and really 4 days of being on a literal crumb can't be that bad. . . anyone know? I am saving 3 crumbs to use as needed, as they will be the extra pieces after my taper schedule. I feel like I have made it so far - farther than I have EVER been off Sub, and if I quit now I will feel like a failure.
I explained to a friend on here that by the time I get to nothing I am scared into going into harder w/d, but I can't let that stop me - and really 4 days of being on a literal crumb can't be that bad. . . anyone know? I am saving 3 crumbs to use as needed, as they will be the extra pieces after my taper schedule. I feel like I have made it so far - farther than I have EVER been off Sub, and if I quit now I will feel like a failure.
Hi Karma - way to go, you are doing great. Stick to your taper program, you are going about it the right way. Optimally, you want to get down to just one dose of .125 per 24 hours, then drop it down to 48 hours - when you can do this with relative ease, then you should be able to drop off without having too much trouble. The half life is over 30 hours, which means that it will take over 4 days to get rid of one dose. Remember that each dose you take has this half life and it builds up, so if you dose twice per day, then the dose is actually building up, not tapering down. Keep posting Karma, way to go.
I am slightly confused about half-lives. To me, it doesn't make sense that .125mg would have the same half life as a 1mg or 8mg dose. Also, I noticed that when I take a 2mg dose, I can pretty much go a whole to half day w/o needing meds when I wake up - when I take the .125 dose I feel as if I need to dose again w/in 8 hours or so. I've looked up much literature on half-lives, but as you say, they all go by the dose - not the amount - this just makes no sense to me. I am a data/figure type person, so this is just a little confusing not being able to find the answer I want.
Yesterday I took .125 at 9:30am - then not another dose till almost 24hrs later (5:30am) - had some major discomfort. Took a seroquel about 10pm, but woke up around 1am feeling like SH** !! Stomach cramps, leg twitches, etc.. . . the muscle tightening is one of the most uncomfortable w/d symptoms for me - it's def different than heroin, as the muscles get tight underneath my skin, but I am not jumpy - it's like I look normal, but dying w/in. So, I knew I wasn't going to go back to sleep and trying to limit seroquel due to the baby - I stayed up and off as long as I could - but at 5:30am needed that dose. That is why I don't understand how all doses can have the same half life - if I had taken a reg 2mg dose, there is no way I would've needed seroquel to sleep and no way I would have only slept 4hrs - and needed more - I would've slept all night, till the next day and would be fine. See what I'm saying?
Today I forced myself to weigh in and take a shower - I've lost about 4lbs. due to not eating and I'm sure my metabolism is in high gear due to all the twitching, not to mention bowel emptying like crazy! I feel tight muscles today, stomach cramps, but I feel heavy like I can't move - this is a new symptom for me.
Yesterday I took .125 at 9:30am - then not another dose till almost 24hrs later (5:30am) - had some major discomfort. Took a seroquel about 10pm, but woke up around 1am feeling like SH** !! Stomach cramps, leg twitches, etc.. . . the muscle tightening is one of the most uncomfortable w/d symptoms for me - it's def different than heroin, as the muscles get tight underneath my skin, but I am not jumpy - it's like I look normal, but dying w/in. So, I knew I wasn't going to go back to sleep and trying to limit seroquel due to the baby - I stayed up and off as long as I could - but at 5:30am needed that dose. That is why I don't understand how all doses can have the same half life - if I had taken a reg 2mg dose, there is no way I would've needed seroquel to sleep and no way I would have only slept 4hrs - and needed more - I would've slept all night, till the next day and would be fine. See what I'm saying?
Today I forced myself to weigh in and take a shower - I've lost about 4lbs. due to not eating and I'm sure my metabolism is in high gear due to all the twitching, not to mention bowel emptying like crazy! I feel tight muscles today, stomach cramps, but I feel heavy like I can't move - this is a new symptom for me.
Your doing great and I am so very proud of you... I left you a note last night on your home page... I understand what ur saying about half life,, as methadone is the same and I agree with you... Stay strong and good Luck. I will pray for u and babby. Message me when you get chance...
Went out to the health food store today and the grocery. I picked up a clay/salt/detox bath - says it helps toxins leave the body. I believe it - and today is the first day I noticed the "detox smell." I think most know what I mean - I know I am clean, I take a shower every other day - I can't stand going w/o - even tho I feel as if I have to force myself, I know it makes me feel better afterwards. Perhaps this salt bath will help me rid the toxins/ buprenorphine faster.
Next, I got some Imodium - never knew loperamide (sp?) was a narcotic. . . especially OTC - however, about 30 mins of taking 2 pills - I feel 60% better - still chilly and edgy, but stomach discomfort has diminished almost totally - and no more diarrhea. I was able to eat. I have also been eating chocolate - don't know why, but it helps. I also took a Tylenol PM - which is the same as Benydryl - the TPM as well as the Imodium and vitamins has really helped make me feel so good that I haven't dosed again since 5:30am this morning - 12 hrs. I am gonna take more seroquel around 9pm - and when I wake up I'm going to only take the TPM and Imodium - I think I'm gonna be completey fine within 72 hrs - I really don't believe I have that much sub in my system - I know I can't. Also, I'm pretty sure my metabolism is waaaay higher than a normal person b/c I'm 8mos pregnant - so the sub just doesn't go to me, it goes to the baby, too. If it didn't, there would be no w/d for the baby. I don't think I'm gonna be sick for longer than a week - and waaay less than 17 days (which I read is the norm). I know what most think, but there is no way the HL of .125mg is 37 hrs - no way.
Next, I got some Imodium - never knew loperamide (sp?) was a narcotic. . . especially OTC - however, about 30 mins of taking 2 pills - I feel 60% better - still chilly and edgy, but stomach discomfort has diminished almost totally - and no more diarrhea. I was able to eat. I have also been eating chocolate - don't know why, but it helps. I also took a Tylenol PM - which is the same as Benydryl - the TPM as well as the Imodium and vitamins has really helped make me feel so good that I haven't dosed again since 5:30am this morning - 12 hrs. I am gonna take more seroquel around 9pm - and when I wake up I'm going to only take the TPM and Imodium - I think I'm gonna be completey fine within 72 hrs - I really don't believe I have that much sub in my system - I know I can't. Also, I'm pretty sure my metabolism is waaaay higher than a normal person b/c I'm 8mos pregnant - so the sub just doesn't go to me, it goes to the baby, too. If it didn't, there would be no w/d for the baby. I don't think I'm gonna be sick for longer than a week - and waaay less than 17 days (which I read is the norm). I know what most think, but there is no way the HL of .125mg is 37 hrs - no way.
Hi Karma,
You are going through the withdrawal process, that's why you have been feeling to crappy. Let me see if I can make sense of the half life issue for you:
Suboxone has a half life of 37.5 hours. This means that it takes a total of 75 hours for one dose of the drug to be completely out of your system. If you take 2mg, 37.5 hours later, there would still be 1 mg left in your system. So, if you are taking .125mg in the morning and .125 in the evening, you are taking a total of .25mg for the entire day. This means that by the time half of the first dose is gone, you will have taken another .125 that next morning and you will have .3125mg still in your system at any one time as long as you continue to dose. So, your body is dealing with the lower dose as withdrawal and since sub is so strong, 2 mg will hold you over for more than a day before you feel withdrawal. It would take 75+ hours of not taking anything at all for the drugs to leave your system and the withdrawal would most likely last several days past that. Your dose is so low though right now that if you were able to just take one dose in a 24 hour period for several days - your body would adjust and then you could start skipping days and eventually drop. You will do this. Oh, and I have also heard that imodium will help because of the opiate properties - just be careful with all of the medication that you are taking while pregnant. You are doing great -keep it up. S
You are going through the withdrawal process, that's why you have been feeling to crappy. Let me see if I can make sense of the half life issue for you:
Suboxone has a half life of 37.5 hours. This means that it takes a total of 75 hours for one dose of the drug to be completely out of your system. If you take 2mg, 37.5 hours later, there would still be 1 mg left in your system. So, if you are taking .125mg in the morning and .125 in the evening, you are taking a total of .25mg for the entire day. This means that by the time half of the first dose is gone, you will have taken another .125 that next morning and you will have .3125mg still in your system at any one time as long as you continue to dose. So, your body is dealing with the lower dose as withdrawal and since sub is so strong, 2 mg will hold you over for more than a day before you feel withdrawal. It would take 75+ hours of not taking anything at all for the drugs to leave your system and the withdrawal would most likely last several days past that. Your dose is so low though right now that if you were able to just take one dose in a 24 hour period for several days - your body would adjust and then you could start skipping days and eventually drop. You will do this. Oh, and I have also heard that imodium will help because of the opiate properties - just be careful with all of the medication that you are taking while pregnant. You are doing great -keep it up. S
salsa that was one of the best half life explanations I have heard !!!! I tried the immodium because I heard it help reduce WD it didn't to anything other then what it was marketed for LOL be everyone is different
Thanks for the half life explanation - I did end up finding a similar explanation last nite - so now I get it. :0) Perhaps it is placebo, but I feel fine with the Imodium - and it does help with diarrhea, but it also makes me warm and comfy. Sleep has become a real issue since last night. I was VERY jumpy - wailing my arms and legs about even after seroquel - this, to me, is a sign that my bup levels are super low - which is good. However, I can't sleep anymore.
Yes, I am worried about all the meds for the baby - but I figure if people can smoke crack and do crystal meth the whole time, a few OTC drugs and approved scripts can't be that bad. Plus the baby's organs are already developed - so the risk for any defects are as low as possible. Really, I am at risk more for going into labor - which I don't mind. I'm ready to be done :)
Yes, I am worried about all the meds for the baby - but I figure if people can smoke crack and do crystal meth the whole time, a few OTC drugs and approved scripts can't be that bad. Plus the baby's organs are already developed - so the risk for any defects are as low as possible. Really, I am at risk more for going into labor - which I don't mind. I'm ready to be done :)
Hey guys, tonight I gave in and took a 1/2 500 vicodin - so i have 2.5mg of vicodin in my system - however I have not taken sub in 24 hrs!! YAY! I was only taking .125 - so I calculated that by friday I should be sub-free - however I might have to ween off vicodin - but if I keep it to 2.5 per day, it shouldn't be as bad as the sub - bc vic only has a half life of 4 hrs - not 37!! I'd rather do a 72 hr detox from vics than a 2 week detox from sub - I'm hoping this will work like I'm thinking. . . I'll post to let u know. P.S. I've passed the point of no return to trying whatever meds I can to get off sub - even while pregnant. the baby is already formed - so he should be fine. Can't be any worse than the crap they give u to induce and all the yummy morphine.
daily update: I'm very surprised that I had enough open receptors to feel half a 500 vicodin - which most of us opiate addicts know is nothing. However, the half life is true to it's time - my good feelings went away w/in 3 hours. I took 2 halves this morning b/c I'm still ridding my body of Subutex. Like I said, Friday I should be clean off sub - but I'm confused about the w/ds I will experience. Can anyone tell me if they experienced MORE w/d during getting the sub OUT of the system - or did w/d not kick in till it was out? BTW - I've been experiencing w/d like mad for about 1 week - b/c of the small dose of .125 I was taking. I have not taken any since Monday at 10:30pm. Will I go into w/d even more so? I know some people on a large dose can go a couple days and feel fine - however, due to my small doses, I was not fine.
Went back to the health store and got some melatonin and valerian root - gonna try to take those instead of vicodin tonight.
Went back to the health store and got some melatonin and valerian root - gonna try to take those instead of vicodin tonight.
Some of the organs have not completely formed until 36 weeks are you past that point you are taking several different meds that can have negative effects on your baby .Does or OBGYN know all of the drugs you are taking you have stopped the sub now back to the narco ??? You dont think there could be any ill effects on your baby ? serqual is a very potent anti psychotic .then the sub now narco are you clear all of this with you doctor ?
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I just read thru this whole thread. I hope to god your ob knows what you are doing here. I also hope the hospital will be prepared when this baby is born. That is alot of meds to be put into your system and then going thru all the wd that you have. I understand that addiction is a beast and you are struggling but you have a baby that also needs to be taken care of here........sara
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