Tryin to Kick Subutex (Day 4)

[xru11]

I've been on Subutex since October of 2007.   Before then I was addicted to Hydrocodone.  But I decided to to QUIT any any and all prescription meds on or before my 43 birthday. So 4 and 1/2 days ago I went cold turkey after tapering to .5 per day for about a week.  I'm grateful for Subutex since it got me off Hydrocodone  But I gotta say, kicking Subutex might be tougher.  I am on day 4 and the worst of it is over but the general malaise and weariness and aches and pains coupled with the utter lack of energy or motivation to do ANYTHING are driving me crazy!!!!  I must function normally soon.  My family is counting on me and I can't let them down.  No one knows about this.  They think I have had the flu.  I feel much better than I have these last few days,....BUT I could use some kind of support, someone to talk to to... I actually just started to cry typing this... I think its a symptom of withdrawal....anyway is there anyone out there familiar with this process?  Is there anything I can do now to ease the aches, pains, malaise, etc?

[broknbck]

Well i think you answered your own question. Why are you hiding this from everyone?

you are trying to get clean and what more could anyone ask of you?

this is a huge, life event you are going through and everyone around you can support and talk to you. and it will take so much stress out by exposing it. you may be surprised just how understanding and helpful everyone will be, unless you are surrounded by idiots.

my take on the whole addiction thing was that by telling everyone i could at least hope that they could all learn something from it and maybe a little good could come out of all the insanity.

i do not know much about the subutex, but i think it may be a little dangerous to do cold turkey and you should probably have a doctor to advise and watch you.

hope you are feeling better soon and congratulations on deciding to quit.

[ochooked]

I too was on Sub to get clean of a pretty heavy Oxy addiction.  I read on this site from so many others who had problems with Sub so I determined to only stay at a 2 mg dose and taper that down to a crumb within 21 days.  That is what I did and I jumped off of the crumb 40 days ago.   Taking Sub was the worse mistake I could have done -- possibly with the exception of Methadone.   I have suffered horrible W/D's from the Sub.  Many people who have finally broken their addiction to Sub have posted on here to testify of what this stuff did to them.  Unfortunately, most (like me) do not listen or think they will escape without paying the price --- and Sub does exact a heavy toll ----- I totally agree with you and hope you can quit the Sub very quickly -- even 21 days is too many.   I do wish I had just tapered my Oxycodone and jumper off of that --- it would have been so much easier.  Believe me --- after 40 days of living he11, I have paid the price of trying to get clean by using Sub.  I do wish you all the best.   The most important thing is to get clean of everything --- especially the Sub.

[me1972]

OK- Now Im OFFICIALLY SCARED SILLY !
I started Sub 3 weeks ago after a 5 yrs addiction of Hydro's & Oxy's.

[ochooked]

I hope you will taper very quickly and try to get off of Sub ----- It is very deceitful and I (and many others) only realized this after we tried to quit.   I am so sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I think that this site is all about us sharing our own experiences.  My own opinion is that the doctors who prescribe this stuff do not know just how addictive it is  ---- It is 30 times stronger than Morphine but you would never know it b/c it does not give a high -- just  a feeling of being 'normal'  - that is - until you try to quit.  Sub is a lover who will not give you a divorce very easily ---- I stayed with my determination to quit and did --  I just want to join the others here who share just what this stuff is like.   I guess I found out the hard way that all Sub did for me was to delay the W/D's and then intensify them beyond belief.   I know that Rufusingbondage and many others have had the same experience.   Try to get to using only a crumb and then use a crumb every other day -- that may help.   The problem with sub is complicted by its very long half life and stays in the body for many days.   All the best.

[refusingbondage]

I am right there with OC.  Sub was a huge mistake for me.  I had long term sub treatment and suffered terribly at the end.  Worse than I've ever known.  I am 32 days off the subs and still have residuals -- but it has gotten so much better and its nothing I cannot deal with. I was out of work and everything else for about 10 days.  I too told a lot of people I had the worst flu ever.  We are all different in how we go through it, but for me the mental/emotional crying spouts stopped at around day 25.  It peaked at around 2 weeks.  I can tell you that when it was happening - the sadness/emotional stuff was really scary.  The physical stuff was familiar - been in withdrawal more times than I care to count - but the emotional depression, sadness malaise, fatigue - that was unexpected.  Its like no other sadness I've ever felt.  And at the time, I did not think it would ever lift.  But, incredibly it has.  That is what you need to remember of the next few weeks and keep it in the forefront of your mind - -  It WILL lift and it does get better.  Slowly and tempermentally but you can beat it.  4 days is a big deal off subs.  Do not give up the fight.  Even if you count the seconds, which I did for days.  make it to the next second and sooner or later, you will feel better. Keep posting and let us know how your doing.  If you can't talk to people at home, there are many here including myself that would be happy to talk to you.  Your definitely not alone on this forum.  God bless.    

[mainemomof2]

Hi.  You should treat your body as if you have the flu.  Lots of liquids and rest.  Also go out and buy a really good multi vitamin (I take One a Day Energy).  Try and eat good, healthy foods and take care of yourself.  

How did you get .5 mgs of subutex?  I thought the lowest you could get was 2 mgs?  

Please just hang in there and take care of yourself.

[xru11]

Thanks everyone!!!!  

But does anyone know anyone who has quite Sub entirely and reached the point of complete or relative normality or functionality?  I have heard everything from a couple weeks to a couple years.  I know every case is different but I just wanna hear someone,...anyone, who has returned to a relative state of normal, healthy, day-to-day equilibrium post Sub-Hell!!!  I gotta know its possible.

[xru11]

A Razor Blade!  Thanks for the insight!!!!!  Any herbal supplements teas or tinctures that might actually help?

[122 Tactical Fighter Group]

I actually got back on the hydros to stay away from the sub!!! Still had to withdraw from the hydro's - but i think I made the right call..............probably invested over six months in the whole process. There is life after sub! Never forget that ------

[avisg]

It will get better we have had some people that have gone off long term use that they have returned back to normal but it is going to take time .You have been on sub about a year it wont undo its self in a few days .I am sure there is a light at the end of the tunnel. how much hydro were you taking before you went on the sub.

[KathyStid]

I'm trying to get off Tramadol, and what I am finding out is that you have to own the problem.  I have been hiding my addicition, but I finally had to confess to my best friend.  The tears finally came out and I became accountable.  I am going to the detox clinic tomorrow, and I would appreciate everyone's kind thoughts and prayers.  I have never been lower, but at the same time happy that I have been able to at least own the problem and take the first step.  And it is ok to cry xru11, even if it is when you are typing.

[broknbck]

so for the symptoms you could try the l-glutamine. it is an amino acid in tablet form. it is one that i feel instant effects from. like i can tell the difference if i take it one day or not. it makes my thinking clearer and seems to give me more energy to do things.

the aches and pains may well be withdrawl induced. that your brain is telling you that you are in pain to take more of the drug. sounds crazy, but it is true. your brain is needing some real healing now and the amino acids are the best way that i know of.

i am always fighting anemia which makes you so, so tired. juicing raw vegtables will give you instant energy. but you have to have a juicer to do it. this is the juice i make when i am like that.

2 carrots
2 celery stalks
about 1/4 of a beet-like 1/3 cup with the greens (it is pretty strong when eaten raw and more can give you a headache. this is where the energy boost comes from)
1 apple to make it taste somewhat decent

if you cannot do the juice, than try to just eat some raw vegs and lots of protein helps too. although you want to keep the fat intake down as it will make you feel sluggish too.

hopefully you are able to eat. that is where we get our energy and we have to put good stuff in to run well.

i am sorry if these things sound really lame, but this is what helped me and still does.

[worried878]

the thomas reipe is great for the depression and fatigue that comes with all of this..at the recommended doses..which is alot..and combined with physical activity daily or more..as much as u can to crank up endorphins...this whole process is so mental and if wds are what is scaring u into using sub...be safe...it u continuously relapse and can not stay clean and do not have the desire to stay narcotic free...then methadone or sub serve the same purpose...suboxone is glorified but when push comes to shove...it is a powerful narcotic that people can legally use to stay away from their DOC...just like methadone...they both occupy receptor sites,,,they both are habit forming altho it is coming to light that it takes less time to get addicted to methadone than sub for many people..sub is stronger than methadone...and whatever anyone says...both can get u high if u abuse it....a sub high is preferred by many over a methadone high..if a methadone high was fantastic there would be lines in front of the clinics..it makes them feel "normal" just like sub does for sub users....know ur stakes and ur meds...a counseler here said sub is just "glorified methadone"  in a lecture i heard at a pain mgt seminar..10 years from now we will have clinics doling out sub to "subbers" for long term use..they are already opening up sub clinics and sub is way more expensive than methadone

Not condoning mehtadone here unless used as intended not sub unless used as intended...just do not kid urself about what u r doing..u r a using a narcotic/more powerful than the one u quit..to get clean..many can do this and make it..many can not...i just spoke with a friend and she is dying to get off sub and is going to use hydros to get off.....did i agree?  NO  Is she stuck?  YES  but i DO believe she is better off than she was before the sub due to a very large habit...it is just now time to deal with the sub and it is one more hurdle to jump over....drag urself over..when an addict is slap worn out..this crud can beat u down...wding over and over can sometimes not be good for people and they cant take the pain...and it takes strength of character and strong discipline to taper off of sub..that is why so many get STUCK on it..she will make it but i can feel her pain

[mr.lucky66]

I hate to see people who are addicted to hrdro end up on sub. This is not the first time I've heard of someone going back to hydro to get off of sub. A few months ago many people on this site thought it was a miracle drug now we all know it isn't. There are no free rides off of narcotics, just somethings to help a little and hard work. all the best

[botchedup]

ok I think we are deceived only when we allow ourselves to be.  The reason dr/s are willing to take an oxy/hydro user and put them on Subs is usually because yes, the w/d are pretty bad, and, short acting opioids put you into a constant state of chasing away the w/d's every 4-6 hrs.  I have found that medical professionals (when being totally honest and not stigmatized) know for sure that being in a constant state of w/d's and chasing is NOT healthy....Therefore, they either put you on contin, methadone, or subs.  I don't know that the mg. conversions are even available...it's the 36-72 hour half life of sub that allows addicts to ease w/d from the short acting full agonist, stabilize and regulate, and then either maintain or taper & w/d.  Any and all of it is work.  The drugs aren't evil.. (maybe the dudes in labcoats formulating synthetics are but,,,) .Our weaknesses are what make us human.  Our ignorance is fully trusting in doctors and medications, or just lovin' a buzz and seemingly free energy.  I don't think anything is worse or better,,,just people's ideas and how they use the tools they have.  It's the 1/2 life that makes it seem harder.  Sub w/d is a good two wks, maybe a month, lots of sweating, and like eagle...dr's do sometimes at the end give you hydros or percs-----because of the subs 1/2 life.  Mind you those will be THE LAST hydros or percs they ever give you unless you get hurt or need surgery.  That is what responsible Sub docs do.  The goal is not always to just be clean no matter what....it's you, happy, healthy, being gentle and caring for your body after you've abused it for too long.  None of us got here in a month....we can wish and hope, but I still say, for every year you used, there's 6 months healing.  Subs not the miracle...our bodies are.

[botchedup]

by the way,,it's good to cry...did you know that sad tears and pain tears and happy tears all have different ph levels??? If you feel compelled to cry...let it go...help it out.  Tears, sweat, blood, bile, can anyone say MUCUS???  lol:)  don't forget the runs....Listen doll, dry it out, sweat it out, throw it out, get the **** out!!!  Don't ever forget in your darkestand most painful moments, you ARE doing the hard work it takes for  healing.  I don't often thump my Bible onthe internet but think how bad Jesus was hurting, thank him, and he WILL give you the strength.  I don't think our Father in Heaven ever meant for his creation to be copied and used or viewed as harmful.  (here i go with the "hippy hogwash":) God gives you authority over all earthly things...take it and use it wisely.  And do your homework fellow thumpers...do you know all 7 sabbaths....Lev,23...what a blessed time when it's HIS appointed times...Especially right now I believe he's "inclined thine ear to us".  Funny it took 40 yrs of "church" before I really got it.  XRU__stay hydrated, take tylenol pm the new stuff, eat bananas at nite they help w/ BOTH restless legs and they turn on "sleepy hormones" like turkey din din.  no caffeine rather than am cup, simple hatha yoga (I'm talking very simple) if you can't bear to actually walk or exercise,,definitely do gentle stretching,,,circle your joints while lounging, rub your own feet(pressurepoints)deep breating really does help even tho we never bother to do it, ummmthere's more but pm me cuz I'm the worst at going on and on.......I bet the po-po wishes I would quit:)hahaha   just joking......it's late, I'm punchy.  I just want you to feel better, smile, be strong.  

[lovepat906]

The feedback on sub is not all dire. I have posted many times my son's success story. He ditched a 2 year addiction to methadone , after a long go with PKs, using a three month low and slow sub taper. His WDs were mild- he never missed work. I am not sure why folks who do the 20 day taper have probs- but maybe it is not long enough to clear and heal receptors in the brain. My boy went down to .25 and after at least 5 days at that level, he started an everyother day skip, and then every two days skip, and then 4skips, between. When he got to a five day skip he jumped. He has been done withit since July 29th and has been doing very well to date. He did start taking an antidepressant 3 weeks before he jumped. He didn't have the fatigue and depression that is reported here. He also drank a ton of water and exercised heavily to help him flush out his system. So. It can be done. I suggest you go to NAABT.org for whole threads of success stories.

[worried878]

sub has helped many and will help many more...i have seen it help people...people just need to know what they r getting in to ..know their goals and educate themselves as u can not guarnatee ur doctor will fully understand this drug  ...for a 60-100 mg a day hydro user..i just can not see the point...,.with higher doses for long term users...i can see how it may be the only way they can make it thru....everyone is different..some work..some do not...some can wd CT off of 300 mg of oxy a day...not sure i could do that but dont know cos i have never been there...so who am i to say...i do know being 80-100 mg hydro user for 4 years that wds just are not that terrible and a few days off work if u have a hectic job like i do is warranted in most cases..i would ask myself

1.  Have I relapsed over and over and sub is my only anwser?
2.  Have I really tried to quit my DOC by myself...every avenue available, including asking the doctor for help, a friend to hold pills, flusing all leftovers and going to meetings?
3. Am i so afraid of wds or have a work issue where sub may help me not miss work?  remembering that a low hydro user would need a low dose for only a week or so and a high user like oxy may need 21 days for short term use
4.  If i can not stay clean and I have tried over and over and end right back in the same hole over and over again, then long term sub may be a consideration, knowing that you will most likely become addicted to it...and including meetings and support along with the sub
5.  And also remembering sub will not stop PAWS nor cravings after u quit if used short term.  You have to WANT to be clean and even those on sub long term can use if they want to bad enuf.  it is not fool proof..u gotta want it

[mr.lucky66]

If you want it bad enough you can do it. You don't have to take sub or methadone if you have failed before.  Try to find a non drug solution to your drug addiction.

[xru11]

First, thank you all for reaching out.  I really think just having others around who really understand what this feels like and have had a first-hand experience with similar trials and tribulations, I think that helps. For those of you that have gone much further my 4 days and are still strong, you guys are my heroes!  For those of you reaching out to help others with this problem, the moms I read about helping their kids thru this thing, thanks for reaching out to me too.

Let me report, that I got through Day 4 pretty well.  After receiving a few posts a reading them, I got this sudden burst of drive and will power and dare I say it??? Energy!!!  I jumped on my bike and rode at a decent clip for 30 minutes.  They crisp breeze against my body felt good.  The pain in my legs from actual exercise made me forget the dead leg feeling I have had for the past 3-4 days.  The sun brightened my spirits.  I returned home and set up a hot and I mean HOT!! bath with eucalyptis oil,...and as I submerged my body in the water, a fleeting moment of nirvana.... I soaked for as long as I could, dressed and set about cleaning my house, doing laundry, etc...  I cant say it was easy but I muscled thru it.  Much of the stomache side pain you know in the kidney area, has subsided.  The acute aches and pains have also subsided.  I still have that wierdness in the legs  but I must say I do feel better.  
For lunch I went to starbucks for a banana-mango vivanno with protein, At night I stocked up on amino acids and bananas and celery and beats and carrots.

I found that a combination of evening l-carnitine, l-arginine, and bananas helped me sleep more thru the night, I still woke up three times but was able to fall back asleep with little fuss.

Its now my day 5 and I am here because in part each of you cared enough to post something.  I just wanted to thank you all.  

I really hate mornings,... they seem so painful and miserable,...  but I have to be up prepping my daughter for kindergarten and driving her to school.  It can be torture but I put on a good show hiding it.  This morning is no different.  I am back home now trying to expedite the transition from miserable morning malaise (MMM) to manageable mid-day quasi-functionality.  I thought some of you might have some ideas on how to deal with mornings?

[refusingbondage]

YA - So happy to hear you made it to another day!  I definitely know the weirdness in the legs and talked a lot about walking on legs that did not feel like they were mine.  Such a strange strange feeling that is difficult to put into words.  I am Happy to report that too goes away!  You seem to be doing everything right - the vitamins, exercise, hot hot baths, posting, taking comfort in the little things - a bright sun, etc.  These are all things to help ease what you are going through.  I guess having things you HAVE to do, like getting your little one off to school each day helps in that your unable to sit around and pity yourself (did plenty of that my first week or two).  You sound so much more positive, even one day later and that is awesome.  The only thing that I could do to get through the mornings or any other particularily bad moment (aside from advil) was try to take my mind off of it - hard to do.  Maybe read a book, watch a movie, if your up to it again- take a long walk.. anything to get through the day-listening to my favorite music helped me a lot to take my mind away from the panic and sadness.  Congrats on day 5 - I know you will make it past all this and you will be so happy when you start to feel like yourself again!  

[worried878]

mornings were worst for me as well...once i got up and got going tho..things got better...u have the idea///that bike ride u took did u more good than anything on this earth could do endorphin wise....get em pumping again...aminos help to but not near as fast...magnesium and calcium also helps with sleep taken before bed.....5htp helps me relax as well at night

People who are active anc exercise are less likely to get RLS which is another positve thing about exercise...push fluids as dehydration even minimal can drag u down

keep moving forward

[kathy226]

Does anyone think that suboxone is just a legal way for a bunch of doctors to make money off addicts? I havn't seen a doctor yet who I thought really got it.

[worried878]

have wondered this very same thing...but i think many just know any better and some actually are great at it...finding one is the problem...quick money is definitely the stimulus for some of these sub doctors..some r just plain misinformed...most have no experience with actual addiction themselves///researching on ur own is important as we all should understand what we put in our bodies