I will be detoxing from longterm suboxone use and would like to extend an invite for others to join me so that we can help support each other

[suboxoneaddict]

I am about to emabark on a detox I have planned for about a year now. I have been on suboxone now for almost three years and I am finally paying heed to the downside. First, on the good side. Suboxone has helped me to stabilize my life along with AA and therapy. I have gone to school, become a drug counselor(I graduate this friday May 9th) become involved in a loving relationship, drastically improved my relationship with my family and stopped most of the negative behaviors associated with addiction. On the flip side however, suboxone is taking it's toll on me. The last time I was free of all drugs, was July of 05' after a protracted and painful detox from suboxone and methadone, which I had been on prior to the suboxone. I want to be completely sober again. Suboxone has ruined my sleep patterns, my creativity and robbed me of much of my enthusiasm for life. Since I no longer get natural highs, except from sex, I am ready to go through the arduous and drawn out detox that is a suboxone detox. I have been through many short term detoxes using suboxone and buprenex some as early as 95-96. I would like to share what will be my final detox with this community as I am actually going through it. In fact, I would like to invite others to detox with me at the same time. I will be done with school and have finished my last internship as a drug counselor and have set aside about 3 weeks to get through the worst of it. I am planning on using benzos during the first week and would like all the feedback possible. In exchange, I have a wealth of information about so many drugs. I have lived in 5 different countries and have been in more than 25 programs. The longest I have been in recovery is 21 months(current). While I have progressed in my life on suboxone I believe I have reached the point where it's effects are more harmful than helpful. Recovery is all about self-honesty and I know that to fully spread my wings in life, I must get off the suboxone. So, my detox starts on May 26th at which time I hope to be down to 2 mgs or less. Right now I am at 5mgs and I have been as high as 32mgs daily. I found that it is so much easier to taper when you split the dose into three or four administrations. A couple of months ago I got down to about two mgs a day but when it got tough at the end I decided to put the rdetox on hold until after my semester ended. So talk to me, I am originally from the NY/NJ area but have lived in the SF/ east bay area for the last five years.

[allaboutmary]

I am doing a long slow taper off suboxone.  I'm not really sure how much I'm taking now. It's just a crumb.  Next week I think I will try and go to every other day with my crumb. Then every 3rd day. So far it has been painless.  I think if you jump off at 2mg you will really feel it. Keep me posted.   Mary

[cocobeanlisa]

Hey,

I enjoyed reading your post and welcome and congrats,  on your plan/school and
all of the over things..I was detoxed off of hyrdocodone with suboxone and cant
understand why a Doctor would keep you on Suboxone for that long
of a period.  I was off of it in about 2 months...If your at 2mgs now try going to 1mg for a week maybe 2 weeks, than go to 1mg every other day for a week, than 1mg every 3 days before you know it will have forgotten to take your dose and you will not have w/ds and be clean....That is how my Doctor took me throught it..I did not suffer any w/ds at all..

That's just what I did nad my experiance...Good Luck..

Cocobean

[cocobeanlisa]

Oh and PS I have stayed off the pills for over a year, so I believe in the subx detox..
cocobean

[flmagi]

Good luck on your Sub detox. That is quite a high dose to jump off at, but totally your choice. I'm still at 3-4 mgs per day, started on Jan 30th. Not ready to jump off yet, but I'll be doing the slow and low taper.
Keep us updated on your progress.

[dare2cnect]

Oh my gosh!  Your post scares the heck out of me!  I just went through a HORRIBLE detox off of Oxycontin in the hospital.  They used Suboxone, and I am home and currently still taking it.  I do not want to get addicted to this too!!  The bottle says "Suboxone 8 MG - 2 MG Tablet".  I take 3 a day.  I don't understand the labeling.  Am I taking 8 mg tablets or 2 mg tablets?!  I know this is a far cry from the  10 to 15, 80mg tablets of Oxycontin per day that I was  snorting (long story what physical pain led to this), but still...I DO NOT want to get addicted to anything else!  I thought the Suboxone was going to be something easy to get off of when the time came (approx. 6 mo. per my psychiatrist)!  Please give your advise!  Perhaps it would be easier to wean off the Suboxone before I get dependent on it?!  I know the purpose is to keep me from going back to Oxy, but still....you know?  Sounds like you have a lot of experience so would love your take on it!  Thank you so very much!  I don't want to go through any more HORRIBLE detox's ever again!!

[worried878]

I have no experience with suboxone other than what i read...i do like to learn and it is very sweet of u to share with the others on here that are tapering off...there is an angel living in your heart!

[s10sittnondubs]

Suboxone supposedly has a longer half life which makes it stay in your system longer therefore prolonging w/d's.   Don't get scared at this because it scared me, but I was reading that after I ran out of my medicine.  I've heared plenty people on this site do a month or two month suboxone regimen/taper and didn't detox...but in my expeirence on the suboxone for 9 months was the same w/d's as oxycodone.  I am ct now for 8 days, and it is worth every hour I wait for the next.  I'd talk to your pysc and see what he says about cutting that 6 months to say 3 months, there are plenty more here just like us so please keep posting and stay clean.

[fishmeal]

Buprenorphine, (suboxone/subuten) has a half life of 37-1/2 hours and what you take today definitely effects two days from now.   So many times I've heard the long slow tapers are the best decreasing even slower as you go ending up ... say a crumb, every other day for a month.  It's easier to go from the higher doses down a percentage than the lower.  That's why some take two miligrams for a month and then 1 for two.  The main thing is that don't beat on yourself if you have to go back up for a few days because it beats relapsing!  This drug deserves a lot of respect because it is extremely powerful.

[suboxoneaddict]

Yesterday and today I have gotten down to 3mgs 1mg every 8hrs or so. I am so determined to get off of everything that it is making it easier to taper. I agree with you guys that 2mgs is too high to drop off from. My last day to dose is the 26th of may and by god I want to be at least at one mg, hopefully less. You know what scared me was reading this other really long post that I read about suboxone a couple of days ago when I first discovered this site. It was so long that they split ity in to two parts. I agreed with some of the stuff the person was saying but all in all I think that he was too negative. A big part of getting through detox is being motivated, having support and then after the worst has passed, getting up off your *** and exercising. Last time I started walking up and down the hills near my house and eventually I started swimming. Within a month or two I was ecstatic, feeling better than I had in years. Hey let me ask you guys this. I was thinking of taking some benzos just for the first couple of days during the worst part, I also have a bottle of tramadol that I could use, but I am not sure if that will just prolong my discomfort. I don't have the time to taper down to just a crumb so I am going to do the best I can with the time frame I set up for myself.

[worried878]

I have no experience with sub but did taper and quit hydros...soemtimes the goal u set..the time frame can be more important than the crumb...setting a date is so important as i have seen that those who do not...dont usually make it...good luck

[ILoveLukey]

Please keep posting. i want to follow your progress. I have been on Subs since February 25. I take 12 mg/day.  8mg-2mg pills, half morn, half afternoon, half evening. I just went to my doctor tonight. He filled my script for the next month and I told him that next month I want to start a taper. I told him that the Subs got rid of the bad depression I had and if I start to taper I am worried about the depression returning. He wrote me a script for Zoloft.  The best of luck to you.

[suboxoneaddict]

Down to 2 mgs today, I am feeling sluggish and the body aches are starting to arrive. I am taking .5 mgs every five to 6 hours. I sleep in two hour increments because more than that and I feel so messed up. I could never get below 2 mgs in my last taper. This time I got down to 2 much faster and with less discomfort. I really need to be at one by next monday so that I can have a full week at one or less before the final plunge. I think the important thing is to get as much of the detox out of the way before I go off completely. It is so much easier to suffer mildly as I am right now than to be going out of my mind as I did last time when I went cold turkey off sub when I was injecting 1mg four to five times a day IV. This week I will order the benzo I am to be taking for the first five days when I stop taking sub. Does anyone have any suggestions. I am thinking bromezapam or klonopin or maybe ativan

[tommm70]

Good luck to you, I quit Subutex earlier this year, and it was the toughest battle of my life. You sound just like me when  I quit. You know you are ready. I tapered down to around a 1/2mg or so, and was maintaining at 4mg. I was on it for about 6 months.

It will not be easy, this is a tough, tough wd. I won't lie and say it is easy. The worst part is the length of time. But stay strong, and take lots of hot baths. For me the toughest part was my job had just started for the season, and I almost lost it. I am athletic and could not get out of bed in the morning. Had I been new at my job, I woulda lost everything. Luckily I have been around a long long time, and my bosses were sympathetic.
Misinformation almost cost me my career.

Good luck to you.

[worried878]

Vlaium is the recommended benzo for detox...less addictive than ativan, klonopin of xanax...not sure about bromezepam u mentioned...it has gotten a bad rap due to being the first benzo introduced for anxiety...safer than most tho

[tommm70]

Oh I forgot to mention Clonidin. NOT Klonopin, Clonidin is a boold pressure medicine that is used for opiate withdrawal. It works awesome! It also makes you tired at night, so it has a double bonus.
Ativan or Xanax for a week  probably would not hurt if you can keep it from becoming a habit. If you tell your doc to only give you a week supply, you should be fine.

Get Clonodin though, not addictive, and it really works well.

[suboxoneaddict]

Hey, did you write that really long post in two parts about sub. It was the first thing I read when I discovered this web-site. Thanx for the encouragement. I have tried clonidine many times over the years but it actually makes me feel worse so I don't take it. I think that it is awesome that you have detoxed and that you come to this site to help others, thank you. I just left my girlfriends because I am more comfortable going crazy in my house when I wake up with the w/d's, unfortunately my girlfriend is the jealous type and she thinks that I am up to something and I wish that she had a less fervent imagination. It's like I am really sick and she interprets that as "you don't like me anymore". Oh well, what are you gonna do. Hey if any women are reading this can you tell my girlfriend that it has nothing to do with her. Thanx

[suboxoneaddict]

So valium, huh? I was thinking bromezapam because I have never taken it before and therefore my body might be less vulnerable to getting hooked. I have taken klonopin and xanax to excess and some ativan over the years and I get a little sick even if I only take them for a week. I am thinking that I will take benzos for the first 5 days only but I am still undecided. I figure that I will need something for sleep. Last time I detoxed from bupenorphine I got my gall-bladder taken out like 12 days into my detox and I was put on iv Dilaudid and then percocet and vicodin. When I finally detoxed from those meds a week later it wasn't so bad because of the hell I had just gone through with the bup. Anyway what is your situation, are you detoxed or are you still fighting the good fight?

[sadinmichigan]

Thankyou for your post. You really sound determined and that is wonderful. I have never taken suboxone but I was on methadone. I jumped off cold of 65mg of methadone. It is as i am sure you know probably the most horrible withdrawal there is. I do not really know how I did it and wouldn't do it again.Thankfully I do not have to because i will be 2 yrs off that **** on Aug.1 and then went cold off all the dang pain meds after 6 yrs of 10-14 a day give or take ,except when I was on  methadone..I do not know in what relation 2 mg of suboxone would be compared to 65 mg of methadone but as hard and horrible as the w/ds are..it is quite possible. I had very good support as far as a few people to take care of my children and a situation that simply did not allow me to escape from the w/ds..It took at least 2 weeks of pure torture with the methadone and then another 3 weeks to finally be able to leave my house and function in any capacity. it took a while to regain any energy. I am really hoping that suboxone is going to be nothing like that for you. you mentioned methadone...did you taper off that or quit cold. As to the benzo question...I have definately believe valium works a bit better during w/ds. I take xanax and it did not help me at all. I switched for a time to valium and I believe it works better in the sense that it's a much better muscle relaxer..So it helps in that way. As for sleep..I could find nothing that helped me get the sleep i so desperatly wanted and needed..Time was the only thing. I am 70 something days off pain meds and it took until recently to really be able to get proper sleep,for me thats about 5 hrs..Please keep us posted. Good luck to you..

[tommm70]

I did not write that article, but it really did help me. I am glad it is an easy reference at this point.

[suboxoneaddict]

So 12 days before the final wean and I am down to 1.5 mgs and I am handling it without to much discomfort. I just was shopping at trader joes,(spent 150 bucks) and started to get sick, I had less than one hour to go but I couldn't wait so I dosed a little early. Anyway at night when I finally do fall asleep I go a little extra before taking my next dose. Actually I am amazed at how quickly I am tapering. Last time when I got to two I hit a wall but this time it is different. The difference is my resolve and my incredible desire to feel life again. To laugh, cry, sing or whatever without an opiate blocking me from my feelings. I am so sick of being enslaved that I am doing everything that I need to, to make sure that this time is the time. I have been in recovery for almost two years but have hit a wall. I can't grow anymore until I get my feelings back. Anyway I love you guys for the support you give me and I hope that you find motivation and purpose as well. Now I am going to eat some goodies that I brought home with me and then smoke a cig which I am also quitting on the 26th of may. Every time I smoke now it makes me so tired and weak and I say to myself why? Why do I do this to myself? I don't know but I do know that I am done with smoking as of may 26th.

[ready2help]

First, I want to congratulate you on your courage - it takes quite a bit of tenacity and determination to get through years of addiction and get into recovery and follow through!

Second, I will pass on a discussion about suboxone, detox, benzos, taper, etc. because I am sure you will get plenty of opinions on those issues

BUT! There were a few things that popped right out to me upon reading your compelling post.  You said you have been to 5 countries, over 25 programs. You said you are currently in the longest stretch of recovery in your life, 21 months. You also said you want to get off Suboxone because it's harmful effects now outweigh it's benefits.

This is what comes to mind:

>How do you know that what you are experiencing is directly related to the Suboxone?

>You have never been this long without getting loaded in a very, very long time (you don't say exactly how long you were using). Have you considered that what you are assuming is the result of the Suboxone is actually the result of a person trying to cope with life on life's terms? Think about it! You are living life, with all of it's pain and angst and ebb and flow, without numbing yourself through the impulsive and compulsive use of opiates!  That is huge! I think this deserves some consideration. There may be other issues here that still need to be uncovered. "More shall be revealed"

As a person yourself in the field, you are aware that recovery comes in all shapes and sizes.  Have you heard the term "Harm Reduction"? If not, do a little reading on it. This philosophy basically says we should do whatever gets the person to the highest level of functioning and quality of life, even if total abstinence is not a part of it (this does not include abusing drugs, though). Of course, total abstinence is best.  But, in some cases, especially with a person who has been using for very long or is a chronic relapser, etc, there is the position that it is better for the person to stay on Suboxone, for example,  long- or longer-term than to get off, and to risk relapse (always measure the risk) and all the crises that would surely follow, including possible death (hey, let's not forget that this is a fatal disease, right?). Let me say that this is often a very unpopular position - especially in the US - though other countries see its wisdom.

OK, with that said, now I will ask you - why do you feel you cannot "spread your wings" unless you get off Suboxone? Is there a shame factor? Stigma of being on it? Especially because you are entering a field where this is perhaps unpopular? Or being part of a system that tells you that if you are still on Suboxone, that you are a failure? Please measure your motives carefully.

I am not advising you one way or the other. All I am asking is that you look at all sides. If you had any other chronic, progressive, and fatal disease, would you take the med if not taking it put you at great risk?

Also, nothing needs to be forever. All I am suggesting is that in the big scheme of things, you have not been in recovery all that long (compared with years and years of abuse and wreckage).  Is this the time to take the risk? Especially considering that this is a time of great transition for you:  fairly recent recovery, new relationship, finishing school, new career. Sometimes addicts want it all and they want it now, and in the rush, they lose the healthy respect for the power of this disease.

Have you discussed this with your support system, i.e. recovery sponsor and friends? Therapist, doctor, etc?

I believe this to be a crucial decision - one that could change the direction of your life if not done at the right time and properly monitored.

Just my 2 cents worth.

My prayers are with you, whatever you decide.

:)

[mommy52713]

good post above lots to think about!

[suboxoneaddict]

Thanks for your comments and learned commentary. Without sounding defensive I hope to explain to you the nature of my decision to get off suboxone. First of all everything that you said is appropriate and has been taken into consideration. I also completely agree with your take on harm reduction. I too champion it as a philosophy because not only does it save lives it also, in my opinion, helps people through the stages of change without having to suffer as much or be stigmatized to such a degree. Many parts of Europe have harm reduction programs far ahead of our country effectively proving that if you treat people like human beings they will respond accordingly on the other hand, if you stick them in jail and treat them like dirt, they will in turn treat others in a similar fashion. It is an immutable law of human nature as old as time itself. Unfortunately conservative factions and other fear based groups have long championed the eye for an eye philosophy and that as we all know leads to destruction as no one can ever deliver the last effective blow. In California this type of thinking has led to one inescapable result that most of our polititians seem to ignore. There are now more people locked away in jails in the state of California, for drug related crimes than there are in the rest of the world combined. With an estimated one in 10 people suffering from some manefestation of chemical dependency in this country, the 'war on drugs' is nothing more than a war against ourselves. Anyway I am more than sure where your sentiments lie after reading your response to my posting. You seem informed and I imagine that you are either a counselor of some sort yourself or heavily involved in a 12 step  fellowship. I have been on suboxone for three years and while it has certainly helped me to get where I am today through a harm reduction approach, it reached a point where it does more harm than good. I can't feel my feelings or I don't have the same intensity of feeling. This creates problems in a few areas. First, I don't invest of myself emotionally, where once I was outgoing and interested, suboxone dulls my curiosity and makes me feel dead inside. I don't look forward to life because suboxone has replaced my natural reward system that reinforces the things I like to do. Where I once was an avid reader, I now can't seem to connect to a book or a writer for that matter. When I play soccer the intensity is all halved and I don't nearly enjoy it as much. When I make love it dulls the feelings of love closeness that I cherish sharing with my fiancee and lately I generally stay home because I am not enthused about doing anything else. I know in my heart that I am ready and that I have used suboxone to its fullest and that is why I am so damn committed to my goal. I see so much potential just around the corner. I want to write books, songs, play in bands, and help other addicts to discover their muses as well. First I must reconnect with mine and kicking sub is the first step. I am keenly aware that my sensitive, playful, curious and self centered nature has gotten me into to trouble many times in my life and that I must tread lightly but with suboxone in my system, bliss eludes me. I have a doctor friend who seen me in my addiction and she uses logic in thinking better on suboxone than off but I beg to differ. If for some reason I can't hack a life completely sober, than suboxone may be my future but as long as I still have hope, I want to live to the fullest and reach my potential. On suboxone I would only be a shadow of what I could be. So tell me what you think and I will contnue to respond. Today I am struggling at 1.5mgs and last night I was so uncomfortable that I took an extra crumb of sub but I still kept under 2mgs. Anyway its progress not perfection and today I will really try to stay at 1.5. I had a little fight with my fiancee this morning but we patched it up before she left for work. As I detox it seems that she is becoming worried that I will change my mind about her or some other fear. I have to realize that this detox represents a big change for her as well and so far I am amazed at the patience and understanding I have been able to display despite my irritable condition. Thank you all out there for giving me a lifeline and a way to get stuff out of my mind in to a format where I can see whats happening. It makes so much difference!!!
I forgot to mention that I do feel some stigma attached to my sub use. While I was in the addiction studies program I let everybody know but in my AA meetings I have been less forthcoming. I am fearful of being judged as not sober even though my personal growth an acheivements prove otherwise. I have rationalized that AA is not the place for such disclosures but I am no longer so sure. What do you guys think?

[ready2help]

Hi again - funny thing just happened - while I was re-writing your name in the "TO" box, I reflected on your choice of names. Now, maybe I am just being analytical (surprise, surprise), but calling yourself a "suboxoneaddict" implies abuse of suboxone - not the person using suboxone as a tool to move forward in recovery. For example, one would not usually say "Zoloftaddict" or "Depakoteaddict" or "insulinaddict". This might parallel the stigma/shame thing I mentioned. Hmm...

Anyway, I definitely hear where you stand. I understand the desire to just want to move on and get past something. That's cool. However, you still haven't answered my main question, which was that I wanted to understand just how you know for sure that what you are experiencing is a result of the suboxone itself - and not the experience of a long time user who may have limited experience in life with long clean time + dealing with feelings + dealing with relationships + dealing with life. Also, have you had depression and, if so, has it been treated? I am trying to gain insight on this - I have not spoken to people on suboxone who have relayed this experience - so, I would like to explore it more.

Re: stigma/shame/AA Judgementalism/Rigidity?
I definitely feel the same on this aspect of AA.  I am wondering if this is a throwback to an earlier time when there weren't many pharmaceutical options for treatment adjunct. Then, there valium came on the market - ended up being a big drug of abuse. So, now when new treatments/pharmaceuticals come up, there is an immediate aversion to the idea. Perhaps this is born out of ignoranace? Fear that somehow this will change AA? I have found that there is a faction of old-timers in AA culture that still get crazy when "druggies" talk about drug use at meetings ("please limit your sharing to discussion of your problems related to your alcohol use"). So, when a person talks about suboxone or anti-depressant, there is this backlash. "Those darn druggies are takin' over". What many of them don't realize is the underlying disease concept and that the day of the "pure alcoholic" is fading. For many reasons, I'm sure. Sometimes there can be a thin line between therapeutics and unhealthy dependence on a treatment. That's a reason why having support when in recovery and being open-minded to what your well-functioning recovering associates have to say is so important. You know what they say: "left to our own devices..."

On the other hand, if something saves your life and you revere it, you are fierce about protecting it, which in AA translates into protecting the traditions - you don't want it to change or get watered down. That position is deeply embedded in the AA Traditions. And I do tend to agree that if AA had jumped on every bandwagon over the years, the Big Book would have been re-written a hundred times over by now! I love reading AA history literature - I find it absolutely fascinating!

Stay well. Let me know how you are doing.

:)