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tremors during sleep

I'm a 60 year old men, in excellent health, except for experiencing tremors during sleep that wake me up and have difficulty going  back to sleep.  As I start to fall sleep again, I feel these "rumbleling" (tremors) around my upper body.  I immediately wake up again.  These tremors last for about 10-15 seconds after I wake up.  The first time I experienced this condition was exactly two years ago.  It lasted for about four days and it simply went away.  Except for minor incidents (by "minor" I mean I experience the tremors for about two nights and go away) with no major disruptions in my sleep patters.  Last week, however, I experienced another episode which does not seem to be going away.  The first two nights I simply could not go back to sleep at all.  My body wanted to go back to sleep, but, as I mentioned above, everytime I fell sleep the tremors woke me up.  I'm on my  9th day and there seems to be no sign of letting up. I went to see my doctor on the fourth day--He prescribed Zolpidem, which I have been taken since.  Interestingly enough, even under the influence of the sleeping pill, the tremor wake me up, but they are short-lived since I go back to sleep almost immediately.  My doctor said to take the medicine for about two weeks and essencially placed me on a "wait-and-see" mode.  My concern at this point is "how long can I possobly survived on this medicine.  Does any body "out there" know anything about this condition?  As you can immagine, it is extremely debilitating.  I'm, for my age, a very atheletic man who is the right things, no vices and bikes to work every day--About
twenty miles a day.  Married with two grown children.  My job is very stress-free and very enjoyable.  Any ideas?  Thank you very much.
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Avatar universal
Glad the clonazepam is giving you some relief Toby.
Helpful - 1
Avatar universal
So I have been on clarazapam for a couple weeks now. It doesn't fix tremors but looking at my Fitbit sleep I went from waking or agitated sleep 15-25 times to one 3-5. I still tremor but now not near as many times. Very little side effects. I like the confidence enhanced feeling too. Not sure how long my liver will like it though. I am only on 2 mg per night. Once you take the pill you have about 1-2 hours then it is bed time.
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Avatar universal
I would like to see this thread resurrected. Some of us may be have further insights to share with others.

I am not sure if anyone will see this, but I have found a practical way to get to the end of this long thread without having to manually click through each page. Here's what works for me, at least in Chrome browser on a desktop computer. I simply type CTRL+F to search within the page, and search on the phrase "have an answer". This jumps to the bottom of the page, which automatically keeps triggering the page loading script until the thread is fully loaded. It takes a couple of minutes, but you don't have to watch it and can switch to other browser tabs. At that point the site functions normally without issue. If you're seeing this at all now, you're probably someone who has already clicked on "Notify me of new activity..."

Instead of "have an answer," alternatives that work are "notify," "respond," and "new activity."
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Avatar universal
I have been able to confirm that hooking the back of my neck up to a TENS machine enables me to instantly kill the internal vibrations with the click of a button.

I decided to try this because, as previously related, I can achieve that effect by tapping my fingers on the same area.

I decided to go to sleep with the machine attached so I could experiment during waking up, when the diaphragm area is vibrating the strongest. I did have vibrations in my legs as I lay down to sleep, as is fairly typical, and was able to kill those with the TENS. The vibration is occurring, I start and stop the pulse, and the vibrations have completely stopped. This was also the case in the morning with the chest tremor.

I don't know the frequency (it's a cheap machine), and don't think it matters.  I don't know if it's the electricity per se, or the way in which it vibrates muscles (as the finger-tapping would), in turn presumably jolting a nerve (vagus?).

Given this interesting result, I'm going to run the machine periodically in case it serves to stimulate the vagus in the manner of possibly being therapeutic.

It's also got me focused more on the ways in which my vagus nerve might have become irritated, including postural issues leading to reflux (hernia?) and also chronic pressure in my neck, which bends to the right. It may be that the thing that unites us all is irritation to the vagus nerve, even though this could occur in multiple ways. I am still struck by the fact that Toby also experienced what I did with the vibrations being triggered by listening to a certain tone. I also want to just note here that a woman on this thread got over the vibrations after discovering a slipped vertebral disc in her neck, or something along those lines.
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5 Comments
Wow.  That's exciting news ricepeg. I received my TENS unit last week, but I haven't gotten around to trying it out yet.  I bought a set of ear clip electrodes and was going to try tVNS via the ear as described in the Nemechek protocol, but maybe I'll just try the normal electrodes on the back of my neck first.  I definitely have neck problems (which I may or may not have mentioned before) and I've started seeing an Osteopath for that.  This treatment hasn't helped all that much yet, but at least she's more open to some of my theories about the vibrations and the vagus nerve.  I also purchased a  traction device (which I also haven't tried yet) to see if applying mild traction to my neck might help.  Just need to get over the fear of experimentation...

Here's some more interesting reading:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190213142700.htm

-b
Thank you for sharing that! I absolutely think this has something to do with vagus nerve and/or diaphagm and/or stomach/hiatal hernia issues. I had bad gastritis (I assume that's what it is) last week and the vibrations really kicked into high gear during that time, jolting me out of sleep worse than I'd experienced in months. I also get increased tremors when I take Vitamin B12 supplements, so now I'd like to figure out what B12 has to do with vagus nerve and stomach stuff.
skboren, I believe that my reflux/hernia problem was brought on by way too much sitting at the computer. I realized that I also had a chronically tight psoas while standing up, so the other day, throughout the day I consciously tried to let this go, and let my stomach hang out all the way. I think I had long been subconsciously pulling my stomach in, for aesthetic reasons and just believing that this was healthy. In any case, letting it all hang out led to a bunch of sudden “proto-coughs” or gasps that I associate with a hernia sliding back down. I did this knowing that I had had a few days of worse reflux and was being taken to a smorgasbord restaurant for my birthday. Despite all the food, I had a 100% reprieve from reflux that day, which surprised me and made me determine to keep working on this technique and improving posture.

On B12, the vagus aids in digesting B12 from food by stimulating the stomach to secrete intrinsic factor, so a malfunctioning (or severed) vagus can lead to B12 deficiency. This is a wild guess, but it may be that if your supplements aren't being so absorbed, they may end up causing irritation to further exacerbate the tremor. I think I may get a similar exacerbation from eatings lots of carbs (as you earlier mentioned), and B12 is needed for metabolising those, so there could be something to the B12 deficiency thing. Perhaps sublingual B12 could help, per this person's experience from another forum: "Since taking daily sublingual B12 my lifelong inherited symptoms of heartburn, bloating, constipation have all disappeared and also my breathing, swallowing and anxiety issues have all but gone. I tried coming off B12 for 2 weeks and all my problems returned. I am now taking 2500mcg liquid B12 twice daily. I think all my symptoms are linked to the vagus nerve. My sister gets 3 monthly injections but her symptoms return before her next jab. I am ifab negative with first B12 level 164 and second 236, doctors are not treating me for B12 deficiency as my levels are 'normal'. I have to sleep with 2 homemade sleeves to stop me wakening with numb hands (it works) and hoping that my nerves will someday repair. I have lots of other b12 related symptoms."
b, thanks for the link. Interesting. It's good to know that "active 20V nVNS positioned directly over the carotid artery results in electric field penetrance that activates the vagus nerve." I've read elsewhere that the carotid should be avoided with TENS (along with the heart), so it would be worth proceeding with caution. Their max voltage was 24V. Their sham position of "far lateral" seems to be closer to my experiment, either side of the back of the neck. Not sure of my voltage, but it was lowest setting of a cheap TENS machine. I figure that while this works in this position to cut the tremor like an off switch, active therapeutic stimulation would need to be done cautiously over the carotid. By the way my method to secure the TENS was to remove the gel pads and use kinesiotape directly over the metal electrode clips. This can be more painful as the charge isn't spread out over the gel, but it is guaranteed to stay in place through the night. In hindsight I could probably tape on the gel pads.
A few things come to mind (in no particular order):

- There are some theories that if you're deficient in B12 (and other B vitamins) and you start supplementing, you could have some nervous system issues when you're nerves "wake back up."

- Sitting at the computer:  I'm the same and so I now have an adjustable standing desk at work that I can use both while sitting and standing.  I make sure to switch between the 2 positions periodically during the day.  I also get up and go for a short walk about every 30 minutes.

- I've been trying a transdermal multivitamin patch from a company called PatchMD.  I haven't had any tests in a while so I don't know precisely how the patches have affected my vitamin status.

- Recently, I started exercising more (mostly because it's now warmer in the NorthEast US) and my vibrations and sleep in general have gotten worse.  Maybe I've irritated my vagus nerve by exacerbating my hiatal hernia or my neck problems? I'm now once again having feelings like I'm experiencing central sleep apnea. This gets me to start obsessing over whether this is indeed central sleep apnea caused by some vagus nerve dysfunction.

- I did a TENS treatment on my neck muscles a couple of days ago, but didn't see any affects on my sleep one way or the other.  I haven't tried this *while* I'm having the vibrations yet.  I also haven't tried tVNS via the ear yet.

Avatar universal
I just finished a book by a Dr Nemechek who has developed protocols to treat autonomic nervous system dysfunction. (I believe that the sleep vibrations are a symptom of ANS dysfunction). His book is primarily concerned with his protocol for autism, but it can also be applied to ANS dysfunction which he believes is due to systemic inflammation. The main parts of his protocol involve treating Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth and lack of Omega-3 fatty acids. In certain cases he also prescribes transdermal vagus nerve stimulation. Many of the symptoms he describes resonated with me and I may look into seeing him at his clinic near Phoenix, AZ.  

I highly recommend you get a copy of his book (it's a quick read) to see if anything resonates with you.  Just do a search on Nemechek Protocol.  You'll find his blog and a few videos.  If you search hard enough, you can also find a description of his protocol. He also has a quick checkbox test to see if you fit the criteria for ANS dysfunction.  I checked many of the boxes.
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9 Comments
Thanks. I have actually watched and read some Nemechek stuff, also. I can't do fish oil, it gives me bad histamine intolerance reactions. But the vagal nerve stimulator device he uses looked really interesting. If you go to AZ and pursue that, please do report back! I agree that we seem to have some autonomic dysfunction going on.
Nemechek feels that most histamine reactions to fish oil are due to "bad" fish oil. The histamine reactions are actually due to the histamine produced by bacteria in the fish oil as opposed to the fish oil itself.
Has anyone had their glycene level checked?
Helpful, thanks b. Early on, I was diagnosed with ANS dysfunction by a cardiologist (at that time I had spontaneous tachycardia), and with SIBO by a naturopath. I continue to experience the sense of very active production of intestinal/stomach gases (leading to belching and reflux). This is one symptom that clearly arrived with my sudden onset, and has stayed with me. If you recall, I had been gung-ho with various probiotics and ferments, thinking I was combating candida, and I had stupidly just taken an NSAID on an empty stomach (I'd hardly ever taken those so was ignorant in that regard, and this was the third day in a row of my three-day test). I was intending for this to combat perceived inflammation. Essentially I felt an issue in my gut and soon fainted. After that, the candida went rogue into my mouth and genitals, and I believe probably other pathogenic gut bacteria also went rogue, giving me SIBO (and possibly set up shop wherever else it could get to). A couple of weeks of adrenaline spikes and weird electrical sensations ensued, before resolving into something more on the level that is commonly described here. Incidentally, although I trace my issues to this dramatic onset, I also had experienced some of the similar buzzing while falling asleep about a year prior, during times of stress. Likely, whatever I had then at a low level suddenly got a whole lot worse, and then somewhat improved but never went away.

Just rehashing this because yes, in my case as well, the Nemechek model would make perfect sense. Something "active" in my gut is clearly involved, and I have certainly had symptoms of autonomic dysregulation. I'm off to get me some good fish oil and some Nemecheck info.
This all "fits" ricepeg.  Probiotics and ferments can be exactly what you *don't* want depending on what is actually wrong with your gut.  Although whether probiotics (and probiotic foods) are contraindicated with SIBO seems to be a matter of some debate.  Which seems to be typical for just about anything having to do with the gut these days.  I think that one of us (maybe it was you ricepeg) saw a neurologist who wondered whether this was some type of PTSD.  I wonder whether these kinds of significant health "events" have caused some kind of PTSD which can also be associated with dysautonomia.

Beyond that SIBO and Candida can cause malabsorption which can lead to vitamin deficiencies (which I apparently have) which can lead to all kinds of neurological issues.

Now for the bad news.  I started on a good brand of high DHA fish oil at high dosage and it may have kicked off some significant anxiety. It's always hard to tell with me.  But I have seen posts from a number of people and one case study that indicate that some people have a problem with fish oil.  It's never easy...

I see my functional medicine doc next week and I'm going to ask him if he's willing to prescribe  a course of Rifaximin without making test for SIBO.  Although I was also once diagnosed with SIBO, I'm not sure that the tests are accurate.  At this point I feel like I just need to try things based on hunches rather than testing. It's going to be an expensive experiment as Rifaximin is not covered by insurance and will probably run me over $500 for a 10-day course.
Have looked into Dr. Nemechek some more and am further encouraged to pursue it. His model accounts for the GERD-like symptoms as well.

My experience with being able to stop my vibrations abruptly with a tap to the head or back of the neck, and with the vibrations able to be induced any time of day by listening to a certain musical tone, strongly implies an autonomic dysfunction to do with the brain and vagal nerve signalling.

So I'm starting on the olive oil and quality fish oil (after understanding and accepting the reasoning for both), and am sourcing some Inulin while also planning to seek a prescription of Rifaximin (a unique antibiotic able to target SIBO, routinely prescribed also for treatment of traveler's diarrhea, including in advance of travelling abroad just in case it's needed–I do travel so I think this shouldn't be too hard to request). I'll probably just hold off for a few weeks on the Rifaximin however, which seems more of a nuclear option on the SIBO. Would like to give the other elements more of a chance to lay the groundwork. Once taken, though, I would hope to see a reduction in GERD symptoms. Then if the SIBO is in the causal pathway of the vibrations, then I suppose there would be some new hope that they might resolve. Dr. Nemecheck mentioned that around the age of 40-45 is when the scales seem to tip towards needing the vagal device to help in recovery.  I'm 44, so have no real sense of that either way. Since in all our cases the vibrations seem to be able to improve, even completely in Toby's case, then perhaps the stimulation device wouldn't be needed by any of us (assuming that Nemecheck is on to something in our case).
Sounds like a plan ricepeg.  My functional medicine doc agreed to prescribe Rifaximin as an empirical test for SIBO.  In the US, Rifaximin is pretty expensive and health insurance typically won't cover it unless you have IBS-D, which I don't have.  So I'll have to pay for it out of pocket. But I'm willing to do that and go for the "nuclear option" at this point.  I still have some lingering digestive issues (including malabsorption as diagnosed by my functional doc) so this seems worth it at this point.  

I'm still toying with the idea of going to see Dr Nemechek, but I'm going to try the above first.  I'm seeing 3 different practitioners right now not including my GP and even though my interactions with the alternative medicine practitioners have been pretty positive, I'm just so tired of it all...

BTW, you can find instructions online for making your own transcutaneous vagus nerve stimulator including some mention of the settings Dr Nemechek uses.  Search for "make your own vagus nerve stimulator healthrising" and/or "make your own vagus nerve stimulator phoenixrising"

Please report back on how you're doing on this protocol.  I'll do the same after I do my course of Rifaximin.
More info on vagus nerve stimulation and PTSD
Oops.  I had meant to include a link in my comment of Feb 17.  Now I can't remember which link that was.  Sorry...
Avatar universal
How is everyone?  I am doing ok. Still no tremors, but experiencing memory issues. Sometimes my mouth doesn’t seem to work right. My face feels tight. Not sure if it is related.
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6 Comments
I'm glad you are ok. I'm sorry about the memory issues and mouth and face. I can relate to memory issues, those began for me maybe two years ago. Mouth not working right I can also relate to, as I feel like when I chew food, my chewing is uncoordinated. It feels as though I'm about to bite my tongue. And in fact I do bite my tongue more often. I also feel a lack of coordination descending stairs. I'm not sure about the face feeling tight.  You mean the skin of your face? Or the muscles?

I have not posted in some time. I still get the tremors, though if I keep carbs low they improve. Too bad I cant keep carbs low and maintain energy! The other surprising factor that affects tremors that I've discovered is vitamin B12! If I take a B12 supplement, or eat something particularly high in B12 like beef liver or kidney, I get bad tremoring for the next day or two during sleep. I cannot fathom why, but it's very consistent.
The B12 connection is interesting.  I'm not sure whether I've experienced that or not.  B12 can certainly be stimulating so I wonder if we're all just very sensitive to any kind of stimulant which results in increased tremors. If you poke around phoenixrising.me a bit you'll see some theories that supplementing with B12 when you've been low in B12 can ramp up methylation to a point where some people experience symptoms (neuropathies, anxiety, etc) due to sudden increased energy production.  You might try supplementing with vitamin B2.  I can't explain that carb connection unless this too has to do with sudden increased energy production.
Thanks. I actually do take B2, three times a day, 25mg, for migraines, and it helps hugely. I've been doing that for a long time, now. It doesn't seem to help me tolerate B12 any better. I am experimenting with lithium orotate, since lithium is supposed to help with B12 utilization, and I've done hair mineral tests that always show undetectable levels of lithium, indicating that I need it. Too early to report results on that. I'm glad you've got  no tremors....that's something! I can sure relate to the memory issues, and I'm only in my mid 30s. Super frustrating. I do believe we can heal from all of this. The solutions are out there.
My face on one side is chronically tight, both in the jaw muscles and further around towards the nostril, where I believe it affects sinus drainage. I do periodically bite the inside of my mouth (mostly left). This is all because my jaw is lopsided, and hence I have right-side ear pain and TMJ (and tinnitus). And that's because my head is lopsided, with a lot of right-side neck tightness and some shoulder issues. And so the compensations keep going downwards, affecting the positioning of my rib cage, breathing muscles, pelvis, etc. I do wonder whether this situation has compressed an important nerve, such as the vagus nerve in the neck area. One would think that constant/frequent pressure/impingement could create a dysfunction. At the very least, my postural distortion (and associated pain and lack of mobility) have contributed to higher levels of systemic stress. I might not be a stretch to call it mild trauma, which raises the possibility of mechanisms of PTSD. My cardiologist suggested I may have that, as my symptoms sounded similar to a PTSD patient of his.
sorry for my writing and spelling i'm not much for writing and can't figure out to even edit the spelling
I have same face tension and other symptoms like the shaking in my head and body as i'm trying to fall a sleep i also have Toby1101 high blood count they said it can be caused by a slow growing blood cancer called polycythaemia vera treatment is where they drain blood from you i have not seen the blood doctor yet for this i also have gastroparesis (food sits in stomach) also acid reflux and they say i have fibromyalgia snf snxiety but it all seems food or digestion related some other symptoms i have is burning eyes and mouth,leg and arm weakness,short of breath,left ear ringing, get hot in the face,burning in lega and arms like lava running threw my veins feels like some bad hang over or something, light white tongue, numb tingly hands, back feels like i been beat with a base ball bat, shoulder pain, brain fog, thristy and tired after eating sometimes and so much more high dose vitamin d worked to help me for 4 years not it not working been going threw this for 5 years like to hear back from you
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